80 not starting (and new just tested battery)

[george_tlc]

You can see plunger and contacts on my starter that failed and I then replaced the bits and 'fixed' it here ->

Starter Motor Contacts

cheers,
george.

 

[nemoblackdog]

A1: No. You ONLY get +12V on the thin wire at the starter when you turn the ignition key to start/crank. 0V the rest of the time. That thin wire is what energizes the solenoid that pulls the plunger to bridge the contacts that take the big +12V cable power and route it to the starter motor.

A simple test, get a few feet of wire (16g is fine) and connect to the battery +12V and then take the other end and touch it to the thin wire on the starter. Do this when it won't crank with the ignition key. If it cranks with the new wire when you touch to the thin wire connector on the starter then the problem is somewhere else (NSS, harness, ignition switch etc). If it doesn't crank and only clicks then the starter solenoid is your problem.

cheers,
george.

I agree with George that connecting a wire from the battery to that terminal on the starter, while the key is in the ON position, is a good test. If it does crank, you're in the situation I was describing - diagnosing the starting circuit. And if the fault is in there, your options are down to ignition switch, NSS and the wiring itself, where something in there is degraded to the point of it being incapable of delivering full battery voltage to the starter terminal. If that's the case, you're in the situation where you can choose to debug those items, or bypass with the relay.

 

[051009]

I mentioned this in another thread... I went down the same rabbit hole with the same symptoms and it ended up being several items:

- I changed 3 starters and eventually ended up with a remanufactured Denso but I believe all 3 were good as I will explain below
- Starting problems persisted even with 3 different starters
- As mentioned previously, that click usually means the starter does not have a solid contact to the battery's +12V
- The point where my truck's circuit was getting degraded was at the NSS and wiring at that point

I fixed the issue by first fixing the wiring at the NSS connector:
1. First fixing the wiring at the NSS. Pull the NSS connector on the passenger side and feed it over the transmission to the driver's side and carefully examine.
2. The black/red and black/white larger gauge wires carry the battery's +12V into the NSS and then back out to the starter. Since this is under the truck and exposed to the elements and with the age of our trucks this is a common failure point. Pull the pin terminals out from the NSS connector.
3. Carefully examine the pin terminals once out. In my case, the pins were so corroded the pins themselves fell apart when I removed them from the connector. Intermittent contact here can result in starting issues like you are describing as the starter isn't getting the necessary amperage it needs.
4. You can troubleshoot here by temporarily wiring the black/red and black/white larger gauge wires together and taping them up with electrical tape. Leave the rest of the smaller gauge wires and plug the NSS connector back into the NSS. Try now and see if your starting issue is resolved. Be very careful here as you've just bypassed the safety the NSS provides and ensure you don't try to start the truck in gear as it WILL start and move. If this test is successful, you know your problem resides in the wiring to the NSS or within the NSS itself.
5. I ordered 2 new pin terminals and cut and soldered them into the black/red black/white wires. I also changed the connector housing itself as a precaution and used dielectric grease in the connector to prevent moisture from entering and corroding the connector.

However, my starting issue still persisted.

I finally fixed the issue by secondly fixing the NSS internals itself:
1. Disconnect and remove the NSS itself. The FSM has instructions, the oil cooler pipe needs to be disconnected. Ensure the vehicle is chocked as the transmission shifter can be accidentally bumped into neutral as you are disconnecting the NSS from the gear shifter lever.
2. Open the NSS on a work bench and be careful not to lose the internal copper contacts and tiny springs that push on them. In my case the springs shot out and I had to sweep the floor to find them.
3. The copper contacts riding on the wipers inside the NSS essentially act by bridging the different "rails" within the NSS to only allow continuity from the battery to the starter when in Park or Neutral. Examine the copper contacts on the wiper (they are very small) and look for ridges on the copper pieces. Ridges form over time, again with the age of our trucks, repeated shifting over the years and over hundreds of thousands of cycle had worn ridges into my copper contacts preventing them from making solid contact with the rails. (Imagine a set of train tracks and a metal beam that bridges the two rails, if the metal beam wears down and forms grooves it won't form a contact between the rails as well)
4. I sanded/ground the copper contacts flat again, lightly rubbing them on rough grit sandpaper or metal file was enough to make them flat again.
5. Also check the small springs that push on the copper contacts as the pressure from those springs are what makes them keep contact with the NSS "rails". In my case I noticed the small springs would "catch" inside the recesses they sat in and if the copper contacts and springs were cocked slightly, the friction against the housing of the NSS would prevent the copper contacts from pushing against the rails. I lubricated the inside of the housing and recesses the contacts and springs sat in with dielectric grease to keep the movement smooth and keep friction as low as possible.
6. Lastly I also very very gently stretched the springs ever so slightly so they would push on the contacts with a little more force. Be careful here as permanent deformation here of those springs *could* result in them losing elastic spring pressure over time. I have been keeping an eye on the situation if the car ever does not start again this is one of the things I would check again.
7. Reassemble NSS, reinstall, and test.

I am happy to report that all of my starting issues have since been resolved since then. It's been nearly two years since then and the truck has not failed to start once.

 

[Desert Dino]

I had the same problem 3 starters in 6 months

Ordered Denso re manufactured from Amazon and getting in the end a new one

Still, from time to time got no starter with a faint click or without.

Some time banging lightly on the starter helped

Direct connection battery to starter always starts

Reading at night on MUD found an old thread with the solution of worn out faulty key switch

Solved my problem

 

[Desert Dino]

P S for some time (waiting for the part arriving from Japan) I installed direct connection battery to starter with big 200A relay and it worked

When I got the new key switch I returned to OEM setup

 

[lazy]

P S for some time (waiting for the part arriving from Japan) I installed direct connection battery to starter with big 200A relay and it worked

When I got the new key switch I returned to OEM setup

Do you actually need a 200a relay? If we're talking about the solenoid wire just a simple wired fuse and a $2 relay right at the battery should do. I would think you'd be all in about $7 for all the parts, wire etc...and that's shopping at the auto parts store.

 

[nemoblackdog]

A 200A relay is very much overkill for the starting circuit. It only needs to handle a few tens of amps. E.g the Hot Shot kit's relay is rated for a continuous 30A (yeah, the initial surge might be higher than that, but the relays are typically rated to handle that that, too.)

I agree - you could put together a simple relay circuit for super cheap.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

A simple test, get a few feet of wire (16g is fine) and connect to the battery +12V and then take the other end and touch it to the thin wire on the starter. Do this when it won't crank with the ignition key. If it cranks with the new wire when you touch to the thin wire connector on the starter then the problem is somewhere else (NSS, harness, ignition switch etc). If it doesn't crank and only clicks then the starter solenoid is your problem.

cheers,
george.
[/QUOTE]

THANK YOU.

so i will get 16 gauge and wire it to the POS pole and then get the tire off and get up under there and touch it to the bolt or spade or whatever that is holding the thin gauge wire on at the SOLENOID? and if i hear the solenoid engage and the starter crank the engine (?) i know it is no the actual solenoid that is the problem.

can i please just ask again (sorry thick headed) about the loud "click". the click is a relay somewhere that is TRYING to tell the solenoid to move or it is the contacts INSIDE the starter housing making a loud click but the solenoid is not moving? i mean i am just trying to figure out what i am hearing now and what happens between that and the normal sound i get when i start the car. AND also what could/should be happening between this click and the car starting. i mean it should be ignition key makes electrical contact, NSS is in off position (or whatever) and the power goes to the SOLENOID relay which then makes contact as the SWITCH goes CLICK? then the solenoid should magnetically get pulled toward something with a THUNK? then the teeth in the starter TURN fast? then the combusion happens? or what?

 

[landcruiser3DP]

I went down this road friday. And I'm still going down it.

Fluid Leak on rear of engine

Reinstalled starter and the vehicle fired right up. Tested again, fired right up. Turned off, reinstalled wheel, put some tools away, tried again and no crank. I'm going to try the fusible links, but the cruiser may need to stay home this trip. Unfortunate because life is always more fun...

forum.ih8mud.com

I'm convinced my problem is somewhere in the wiring since my reman denso starter is pretty new. I'm currently at the nss which some people have had issues with. But, georg is correct, you need to really measure the voltage when putting some current to it. I megged mine and i am about 50% confident i did that correctly so i have some confidence in my power lead. A power lead is easy enough to make especially if you have some cable laying around.

I think isolsting if it is the thin wire or the fat wire at the starter is a good place to begin. If you can re-enact the no start problem and drag a wire from positive to the solenoid (thin wire) and get the starter to turn over you can have confidence in the starter, power lead and then start trouble shooting the solenoid circuit, which you should probably start at the nss...my opinion from someone who hasn't fixed their issue....

THANKS man. if i don't take notes on electrical i get all turned around if i so much look at a part number.
so it was 12V at the fat starter wire and 12V at the thin starter wire if i have the ignition key to ACC?
but also i don't like SURPRISES.
and since the thing is in PARK i should not try to jump up when i am under there if the starter tries to turn the engine over since i am PARK? or wait, sorry will the engine actually TURN OVER and start if i have the key in ACC and i am basically hot wiring it? or am i hot wiring it?
or wait. what is the deal? NEG POLE will be disconnected from the system? and i will MAKE SURE the NEG WIRE doesn't try to make contact with the NEG POLE by putting a rag between them?!
should i ALSO disconnect POS pole just to be safe? i guess i am not totally there yet with the brain cells understanding this...

 

[nemoblackdog]

The click you hear is likely the starter solenoid trying to extend and fully engage the big (high current) contacts in the starter. That solenoid has to act against a fairly strong spring and it needs full battery voltage to fire strongly enough to overcome that spring force. When it has less than sufficient battery voltage, the solenoid will still attempt to move, and will likely move a little bit, but not far enough. This is the "click" you're hearing.

When things are working correctly, the solenoid fully fires, and the starter plunger easily overcomes the return spring force, which causes the main starter contacts to engage and start cranking the engine.

There is always 12v on the thick wire going into the starter - this is pretty much a solid connection from the battery to the starter.

12v is only on the thin wire to the starter when the key is turned all the way to the start position. It is this voltage that can get degraded by faulty wiring or components in the chain resulting in the the solenoid not being able to fire and you only get the click.

As for running the test wire from the battery to the small gauge terminal on the starter, connect it to the starter terminal first, and then touch the other end to the battery. That way, you're head and hands aren't buried underneath the car when the engine cranks. Just a more comfortable way to do it.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

The click you hear is likely the starter solenoid trying to extend and fully engage the big (high current) contacts in the starter. That solenoid has to act against a fairly strong spring and it needs full battery voltage to fire strongly enough to overcome that spring force. When it has less than sufficient battery voltage, the solenoid will still attempt to move, and will likely move a little bit, but not far enough. This is the "click" you're hearing.

When things are working correctly, the solenoid fully fires, and the starter plunger easily overcomes the return spring force, which causes the main starter contacts to engage and start cranking the engine.

There is always 12v on the thick wire going into the starter - this is pretty much a solid connection from the battery to the starter.

12v is only on the thin wire to the starter when the key is turned all the way to the start position. It is this voltage that can get degraded by faulty wiring or components in the chain resulting in the the solenoid not being able to fire and you only get the click.

As for running the test wire from the battery to the small gauge terminal on the starter, connect it to the starter terminal first, and then touch the other end to the battery. That way, you're head and hands aren't buried underneath the car when the engine cranks. Just a more comfortable way to do it.

THANKS. i was trying to wrap my head around that getting the starter to fire thing and i could not quite get there.
can i also please ask you, when i am testing the solenoid. well, i am wired up at the solenoid positive bolt or spade or whatever? and this is then grounded through the starter or the engine eventually at some point?
so is there a safety step here where i disconnect negative at the NEG pole on the battery? or also at POS pole on the battery?
both?
neither?
what is the difference exactly?
i see to constantly trip over this issue for some reason. i mean disconnecting negative at the NEG pole at the battery - er, is the POS wire to the STARTER still live? i guess it is? so if i am in there with a wrench and accidentally touch something grounded with the wrench what happens?
or even better if i disconnect NEG at battery and i am on the SOLENOID with a wrench and i touch negative with the wrench isn’t that going to - well i am not sure but can you help me with this?!

 

[nemoblackdog]

Well, here's what I would do to test along the lines of what I've been describing. Referring to the attached picture, the way I'd go about this is:

1) Connect a piece of wire (which I call the "test jumper" in the picture) to the shown terminal on the starter. You might be able to wedge the wire into the connection without disconnecting the stock wiring connector that goes in there. But if not, unclip it and connect your test jumper to the now exposed terminal on the starter. An alligator clip would be helpful, but even a toothpick or end of a zip tie can be used to wedge the bare wire end onto the terminal to temporarily hold it there.

2) When ready, momentarily touch the other end of the test jumper wire to the +12V (positive) terminal on the battery. Since all we're trying to determine is if the starter will crank, it doesn't matter if the key is even in the ignition switch.

If the starter then fires and cranks, then your battery is good, your starter is good, the big thick wiring from the battery to the starter is good and the ground connections are good. If it doesn't crank, then one of those items is still suspect.

Other than possibly disconnecting the thin wire factory connector at the starter if you can't wedge in your test jumper, no other connections on the truck need to be touched.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

Well, here's what I would do to test along the lines of what I've been describing. Referring to the attached picture, the way I'd go about this is:

1) Connect a piece of wire (which I call the "test jumper" in the picture) to the shown terminal on the starter. You might be able to wedge the wire into the connection without disconnecting the stock wiring connector that goes in there. But if not, unclip it and connect your test jumper to the now exposed terminal on the starter. An alligator clip would be helpful, but even a toothpick or end of a zip tie can be used to wedge the bare wire end onto the terminal to temporarily hold it there.

2) When ready, momentarily touch the other end of the test jumper wire to the +12V (positive) terminal on the battery. Since all we're trying to determine is if the starter will crank, it doesn't matter if the key is even in the ignition switch.

If the starter then fires and cranks, then your battery is good, your starter is good, the big thick wiring from the battery to the starter is good and the ground connections are good. If it doesn't crank, then one of those items is still suspect.

Other than possibly disconnecting the thin wire factory connector at the starter if you can't wedge in your test jumper, no other connections on the truck need to be touched.

View attachment 2399594

thanks a LOT. you reminded me i have a pair of alligator to alligator leafs i might get that might reach.
but just because i am a bit of a knuckle head. will disconnecting then NEG at the battery do anything for me safety wise before i start crawling under there and whacking around near those two starter cables?
or what about disconnecting POS cables at the battery?
or BOTH.
the fat one is live. so if i touch my alligator lead to it and something that is grounded big sparks will fly, no?

 

[nemoblackdog]

Sure. It's never a bad idea to disconnect the battery ground connection prior to setting this up. That's just good practice, of course.

(Me, I'm lazy and to be truthful, I sometimes ignore this practice. )

 

[Desert Dino]

Do you actually need a 200a relay? If we're talking about the solenoid wire just a simple wired fuse and a $2 relay right at the battery should do. I would think you'd be all in about $7 for all the parts, wire etc...and that's shopping at the auto parts store.

That's what I had on the shelf from the obsolete Dual Battery system and since It was just temporary I used it it is overkill

No harm done

 

[landcruiser3DP]

Sure. It's never a bad idea to disconnect the battery ground connection prior to setting this up. That's just good practice, of course.

(Me, I'm lazy and to be truthful, I sometimes ignore this practice. )

so i have taken to putting a towel between the harness and the pole so the ground does not return to where it was and make contact.
but can i PLEASE ask if there is any benefit to going ahead and removing the POS connection at the battery?
i mean presumably - well is there anything here to think about?
for instance i’d i take the NEG connection off at the battery i can still ras voltage at the starter as long as i GROUND the neg pole on the MM? meaning i obviously don’t need the NEG connection at the battery to take readings?
sorry there so something i am missing here about closing circuits or something.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

gents. ordered a denso reman starter.
anyone mind my trying to take advantage of this learning experience and posting what i see in the electrical manual for tips or pointers on how to read it or understand things?
toyota has some really great electrical documentation and now is kind of a good time for me to try to step up my sparky game...

 

[nemoblackdog]

Personally, if you're already removing the negative cable terminal at the battery (for safety reasons), then also removing the positive terminal is not necessary. That would be too much belt and suspenders from my perspective. But, some folks do actually wear belts and suspenders!

You are correct. If you leave the positive cable connected to the battery, then you can measure voltage anywhere you'd like (including at the starter), if you connect the negative probe of the the multimeter to the negative post of the battery itself.

Of course, you'll need to reconnect the negative battery cable at the battery before you run any tests (including the jumper test I described above.)

Not sure what specific questions you might have about reading that schematic, but I'm happy to help with any specific questions you might have. Feel free to PM me if you'd prefer to do it that way.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

Personally, if you're already removing the negative cable terminal at the battery (for safety reasons), then also removing the positive terminal is not necessary. That would be too much belt and suspenders from my perspective. But, some folks do actually wear belts and suspenders!

You are correct. If you leave the positive cable connected to the battery, then you can measure voltage anywhere you'd like (including at the starter), if you connect the negative probe of the the multimeter to the negative post of the battery itself.

Of course, you'll need to reconnect the negative battery cable at the battery before you run any tests (including the jumper test I described above.)

Not sure what specific questions you might have about reading that schematic, but I'm happy to help with any specific questions you might have. Feel free to PM me if you'd prefer to do it that way.

thanks. so do i need to leave the NEG pole connected at the battery to check for 12 V at the starter?
also, can you help me read this schematic?!
power goes from the fuses relay box to the ignition switch? what is IG2? if i turn it to ACC power goes to the solenoid? where is the STARTER CUT RELAY? it’s in the kick panel at the DS left foot? then that is the NSS in the engine somewhere?
what happens if the STARTER CUT RELAY is not closing?! could i “jump” the starter cut relay by providing two good 12 volt batteries in line somehow? meaning could i get a bad starter cut relay to close if i use a jumper battery so the good one in the truck?!
ALSO, what do i hear when the NSS switch is - er not closing even though it should close i guess...?

 

[landcruiser3DP]

Sure. It's never a bad idea to disconnect the battery ground connection prior to setting this up. That's just good practice, of course.

(Me, I'm lazy and to be truthful, I sometimes ignore this practice. )

hey man, i hope i am not asking too many questions for you. trying to bootstrap myself into better understanding by trying to tackle some things.
so on tests i found two three foot long “double alligator” leads i made at some point. can you or someone else help me with a sort of idiots list of tests i can run? i mean just as a practical exercise for instance.

for example (?):
1. hook up both leads to the starter connection and one to the solenoid connection.
2. test with MM set to 12V DC (or something) with NEG probe to NEG pole and POS probe to alligator clip. test solenoid with key to ACC.

can i do a continuity and resistance check in this case?

can i do a short circuit check in this case?