80 not starting (and new just tested battery) (1 Viewer)

[nemoblackdog]

so do i need to leave the NEG pole connected at the battery to check for 12 V at the starter?
- No, but if the negative battery cable is is not connected, to make that measurement, you'll need to connect the negative wire on your multimeter directly to the the negative pole on the battery. If the negative battery cable is connected, you can measure voltage using pretty much any bare metal surface on the truck, including the case of the starter.


power goes from the fuses relay box to the ignition switch? what is IG2?
- Correct. Power has two paths from the battery to the ignition switch. 1) through the fusible link FL AM2 to the AM2 terminal of the ignition switch, and 2) from the 50-amp AM1 fuse also to the AM1 terminal on the ignition swithch. IG2 is what powers the ignition coil when the key is in the ON position.

if i turn it to ACC power goes to the solenoid?
- No. Power only goes to the solenoid when the key is in the START position. On the ignition switch diagram, IG2 and IG1 are both closed when the key is in the ON position. ST1 is only closed when the key is in the START position.

where is the STARTER CUT RELAY? it’s in the kick panel at the DS left foot? then that is the NSS in the engine somewhere?
what happens if the STARTER CUT RELAY is not closing?! could i “jump” the starter cut relay by providing two good 12 volt batteries in line somehow? meaning could i get a bad starter cut relay to close if i use a jumper battery so the good one in the truck?!
ALSO, what do i hear when the NSS switch is - er not closing even though it should close i guess...?

- Rather than diagnose each individual component that you mention here (starter cut relay, NSS, etc..), which will be very laborious, I'm going to strongly suggest you do what I drew above which is connect a jumper wire from small wire starter terminal back to the positive battery terminal and see if the starter cranks. This is a simple test and shouldn't take but a few minutes and doesn't require anything other than a piece of wire. If it does successfully crank, then you know it's one of the things in that chain that is at fault. But if it doesn't crank, then you can ignore all those switches and relays and then focus (most likely) on the starter itself or the big cables leading to the starter.

 

[jonheld]

I'm going to jump in here with some basic information that may help. Feel free to tell me to shut it.

1. You have the FSM and EWD. The location of all parts are given to you. For example, you asked where the "STARTER CUT RELAY" was located. On the schematic diagram, that relay is given a number. In this case it is S12. If you go forward 1 page, you will see "PARTS LOCATION". The location of S12 can be found on page 25. If you turn to page 25 and look up S12, it points to the location.

2. Automotive electronics are very simple. It's all DC referenced to the battery using a common ground of the frame, body, and engine.

Disconnecting EITHER positive or negative prevents current flow, as there is no longer voltage in the system. No voltage=no current.
For example, if you remove the negative wire from the battery, there is no longer a "ground" anywhere in the system because "ground" is the negative terminal of the battery. If the frame, body, and engine are not connected to the negative battery terminal, they are no longer "ground" referenced to the battery.
Alternately, if you remove only the positive clamp, the results are identical. No voltage in the system. No voltage=no current.
With either clamp removed, the ONLY place you will see voltage is between the actual battery terminals.

 

[nemoblackdog]

Good advice.

The only reason that removing the ground (negative) cable first is considered best practice is that if you first try to remove the positive cable, there is a chance the wrench could contact a grounded point, creating a short. But, i've done it both ways, and neither way, depending on my level of laziness.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

gents. more noob questions please. and THANK YOU.
the extra bolt holes here are for things other than the battery? can i add a second ground? ALSO, i never fully understood this but i am pretty sure the RING TERMINAL makes contact erich the underside of the BOLT HEAD and this thing grounds through the threads internal to the connection. not so much through the paint and to the frame at the underside of the RING TERMINAL. you know what i mean?!

 

[landcruiser3DP]

I had the same problem 3 starters in 6 months

Ordered Denso re manufactured from Amazon and getting in the end a new one

Still, from time to time got no starter with a faint click or without.

Some time banging lightly on the starter helped

Direct connection battery to starter always starts

Reading at night on MUD found an old thread with the solution of worn out faulty key switch

Solved my problem

View attachment 2399100

thanks man. so this is just behind the tumbler you put your key in at the steering column?

 

[nemoblackdog]

Can't hurt to add another ground connection. Though I'd be pretty surprised if that alone would improve the situation. Your understanding of how the current flows (ring terminal, bolt head, threads) sounds about right. Certainly can't count on it making contact through a partially painted panel. I've seen guys sand away the paint in that area to be extra sure, though.

 

[lazy]

thanks man. so this is just behind the tumbler you put your key in at the steering column?

View attachment 2400612

What were the results when you put 12v to the solenoid wire? If it started fine (especially if you could get the click no start behavior and then the hot wire fixed it), what makes you think it is the switch assembly?

I know these things are much easier to arm chair quarterback, but if you've narrowed down to the "solenoid circuit" you can then start testing sections of wire and connections from the battery to the starter. This is going to be my exact process once i get back to my truck in a week.

 

[051009]

Agree with lazy, before you start throwing parts at it do the troubleshooting mentioned above, should only take a few minutes to start narrowing down the typical points of failure.

Here we are focusing more on the easy to access points of wiring and typical failure points as a result of their locations under the truck/exposed to the elements.

Like others have mentioned above, start with the circuit at the starter circled in RED #1. Disconnect the small connector on the starter (black/red wire B-R that comes from the NSS) and run a wire from that connector plug up to the battery and touch the battery positive terminal with it. From the diagram, the positive 12V there closes the starter switch inside the starter (boxed in green) and the constant 12V from the battery (thick black cable in the green box that's always connected) turns the starter.

If the truck starts then then you know all the wiring in the green box and the starter itself is good.

I circled BLUE #2 as the next spot to try and check with the NSS under the truck on the passenger's side. Jump the thicker gauge black/white (B-W) and black/red (B-R) wires together and then try to start the truck.

If the truck starts then then you know the problem is in the NSS connector or NSS itself.

I would do all this first before looking at the ignition switch as that resides inside the cab where it is dry.

 

[jonheld]

the extra bolt holes here are for things other than the battery? can i add a second ground?

It depends on what device you are adding a ground for. For high current applications, it is always best to go direct to the battery. For low current applications, you can pretty much put grounds wherever you desire on the body or frame, within reason.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

You can see plunger and contacts on my starter that failed and I then replaced the bits and 'fixed' it here ->

Starter Motor Contacts

cheers,
george.

oh, that’s yours george? i’ve printed that out three or four times and maybe read it ten. that thing is great. i think i’ll end up finally putting it to use this winter when i rebuild the one i pull out.

 

[Desert Dino]

thanks man. so this is just behind the tumbler you put your key in at the steering column?

View attachment 2400612

Yes, exactly like this

 

[landcruiser3DP]

gents,
many THANKS here. i ordered a denso starter and a fuel filter. i am thinking to order a NSS and just replace it and clean the one i have over the winter. but i guess i will cross that bridge when i come to it.
anyway, i am planning i’m doing the 16 ga lead test to SOLENOID + and - well just touch the POS pole i think test when the starter comes in (and also to try to find a day when it isn’t 107 on the tarmac in the sun i guess).
in the meantime anyone mind helping me with some book learning?!
i see now i can get from the electrical diagram for S12 to page 25 which shows the starter cut relay in the kick panel. i also found it by searching a couple days ago.
i also see i can get from P1 to find the NSS up near the EGR systems or something?
i also see the starter is grounded at the engine there somewhere.
Q1. is there a good way to find where the harness in turn is being grounded at the engine? i would like to clean that up when i am in there.
Q2. can anyone help me read this diagram a little more? what is II2 in the boxes again? how do i find FL AM2 from the diagram if i don’t already know where it is? how do i find 50A AM1 from the diagram and where was it again? what’s the blue box beteeen #3 and 4 again? or the 2 in the circle?
i read the intro to the manual but i always miss about half of it with stuff like this (and also stuff like astrophysics...) and have to ask questions.
Q3. it really bugs me i can’t read the ignition erich diagram. anyone up for giving me the hoe to read this diagram explanation?

 

[lazy]

In the front is a key to all the shapes - upside down triangle = ground, hexagon = splice, rectangle = connector etc. There is also a diagram towards the front that lists all the ground points if I remember correctly.

q1 - grounds are shown with upside down triangle. Ground EC for example. There is a diagram in the EWD showing where they all are. The starter is self ground through the engine and no specific ground (but relies on the grounds of the engine grounding straps). You can test continuity by touching starter and then neg battery terminal with a multi meter and reading ohms.

q2 - II2 is the name of the connector. You have identified it in your 2nd picture and there will be an exact diagram below the tables showing what the connector looks like and which wires are in which slots that pertain to that circuit. Specific to II1 and the starting/ignition circuit, only wire one pertains and it will show a '1' in the appropriate connector slots. That wire is also 'B-W' or black with a white stripe. Other wires which are in the connector and but do not pertain to the circuit have a dot, if it is not occupied by a wire, there is an 'x'.

q3 - have you read the first couple pages of the EWD? there is a "how to use this book" section.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

In the front is a key to all the shapes - upside down triangle = ground, hexagon = splice, rectangle = connector etc. There is also a diagram towards the front that lists all the ground points if I remember correctly.

q1 - grounds are shown with upside down triangle. Ground EC for example. There is a diagram in the EWD showing where they all are. The starter is self ground through the engine and no specific ground (but relies on the grounds of the engine grounding straps). You can test continuity by touching starter and then neg battery terminal with a multi meter and reading ohms.

q2 - II2 is the name of the connector. You have identified it in your 2nd picture and there will be an exact diagram below the tables showing what the connector looks like and which wires are in which slots that pertain to that circuit. Specific to II1 and the starting/ignition circuit, only wire one pertains and it will show a '1' in the appropriate connector slots. That wire is also 'B-W' or black with a white stripe. Other wires which are in the connector and but do not pertain to the circuit have a dot, if it is not occupied by a wire, there is an 'x'.

q3 - have you read the first couple pages of the EWD? there is a "how to use this book" section.

THANK YOU. yeah. i have to go back and forth between the explanations and diagrams and the actual diagram. sometimes it helps to get help. like you can read it a couple times and i still have issues.

like here with this four square thing. it is trying to show if i put it in P or N the circuit is closed?
colors are on the wires is see. but what was the different wire line types? they are showing different gauges and not just different colors?

or this which is for the ignition key i guess? i can never read these for some dumb reason and i would like to.

 

[lazy]

First is the NSS. Need to be in park or neutral for the circuit to be completed. Connector P1 plugs into the NSS. Wire 5 (B-R, black with red) leaves the NSS to the starter. Wire 6 (B-W, black with white stripe) goes from connector IL1, pin 21 to connector P1, pin 6.

The other is the ignition switch which is driven by the tumbler/key. The "switch" has 4 settings -Off/ ACC/IG/ST. 'OFF' isn't shown. Connector I12 plugs into the ignition switch for the ignition/starting circuit (there may be more connectors, they just don't pertain to the starting/ignition circuit). Wires/pin 4& 11 come from the battery and wires/pins 1&6 leave the ignition switch.

So, you can pull the I12 connector and test continuity/meg from positive terminal all the way to pin 4. This will tell you if the wire is "good". With caveats of course. Megging is the best option to find "leaks". Megging shoots a charge and then measures for resistance outside of the wire.

 

[nemoblackdog]

Good advice @lazy .

One caveat about testing continuity and resistance of the wiring itself. If the wire is degraded due to age and oxidation of the copper, it may well "ohm out" OK on the multimeter, but that's essentially a no-load resistance measurement. If the wiring is degraded, it may still be not capable of delivering full voltage at the current required by the solenoid to fire correctly (which is something on the order of a few tens of amps, if I remember correctly).

Not to add to the complication, but another way to check this under load is to measure the voltage at the solenoid terminal when the key is in the start position. This is just another variation on the 16ga wire jumper test. And I'd definitely do that before swapping any components or doing other measurements. That'll at least tell you what part of the circuit to focus on.

 

[lazy]

I've been thinking of working up a troubleshooting flow diagram for this. There seems to be enough people who have had and will continue to have these issues. These types of things tend to have people throwing out what their problem was and suggest you start there. But, some people have had loose contacts, some have had bad connectors in nss p1, some have had to take the nss apart and repair the copper contacts etc. None of which has anything to do with what your issue(s) will be. There is simple testing (and i spent about half a day chasing my own tail) that helps to narrow down where the issue is. Switch is $100, nss is similar, starter 125, it can expensive really fast...

 

[nemoblackdog]

I think that's a great idea.

You're correct, throwing parts at this is not a reliable approach. You might get lucky, but chances are decent you'll end up wasting time and money if you go down that path.

If you end up taking that on, I'd be happy to help look it over.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

I've been thinking of working up a troubleshooting flow diagram for this. There seems to be enough people who have had and will continue to have these issues. These types of things tend to have people throwing out what their problem was and suggest you start there. But, some people have had loose contacts, some have had bad connectors in nss p1, some have had to take the nss apart and repair the copper contacts etc. None of which has anything to do with what your issue(s) will be. There is simple testing (and i spent about half a day chasing my own tail) that helps to narrow down where the issue is. Switch is $100, nss is similar, starter 125, it can expensive really fast...

oh dude. i am totally into that. from what i have learned here it is kind of shocking how the FAQ simply says "starter" and moves onto other items.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

First is the NSS. Need to be in park or neutral for the circuit to be completed. Connector P1 plugs into the NSS. Wire 5 (B-R, black with red) leaves the NSS to the starter. Wire 6 (B-W, black with white stripe) goes from connector IL1, pin 21 to connector P1, pin 6.

The other is the ignition switch which is driven by the tumbler/key. The "switch" has 4 settings -Off/ ACC/IG/ST. 'OFF' isn't shown. Connector I12 plugs into the ignition switch for the ignition/starting circuit (there may be more connectors, they just don't pertain to the starting/ignition circuit). Wires/pin 4& 11 come from the battery and wires/pins 1&6 leave the ignition switch.

So, you can pull the I12 connector and test continuity/meg from positive terminal all the way to pin 4. This will tell you if the wire is "good". With caveats of course. Megging is the best option to find "leaks". Megging shoots a charge and then measures for resistance outside of the wire.

hi lazy. THANK YOU for this.
a couple follow ups please?
on the ignition switch diagram. ACC, and IG1 and ST1 are marked on the actual ignition or what do they stand for again? ACC i guess means accessories (all?) are powered but not the solenoid on the starter? what about the others?
also, how do i read it exactly? i mean what was AM1 and AM2 again and - well - are those dart looking objects - well - are they representing physical objects in the tumbler or what do they represent?
and is it showing that IG2 is powered at all rotations i guess and the three at the bottom are dependent upon the actual key rotation i guess? meaning the dotted line is showing the two darts are tied together i suppose.
also. i @jonheld helps me see P1 refers to page 23 and I12 refers to page 25.
is there more information i can find on the NSS? it seems like it is located by the EGR and not down at the transmission? or is there also some kind of switch at the actual transmission that communicates to - well i guess P1 is just the dumb end in that it is a connector in the harness that sends the electrical pulse (or no pulse) through the harness to the ECU? i mean isn’t there an actual switch in the transmission somewhere?
same question for I12. this is a harness? is there a way to see the part that @desertdino posted in this diagram?
THANK YOU