80 not starting (and new just tested battery) (7 Viewers)

[landcruiser3DP]

starting problems: the 80 is not starting this morning. she fired up after getting load tested yesterday (battery is fine) and after i tightened the ground strap at the frame at the battery when i got home. no start this morning.
i just get a click when i turn it.
all lights come in with key in ACC position
14 bolts at the poles when she is running.
it will start all the time with a jump. not totally sure what that means through. i guess it could mean a loose or corroded ground? or it could mean a sticky solenoid so it is not giving me a thwack and kicking the starter over?
starter looks like it still has a remanufactured in mexico and has a sticker on it that says so.
Q1. where do i test that the starter is veering power if i wanted to? and do i remove the tire to do this? i’d like to check to make sure i know what i am doing.
Q2. how many bolts and wires for removal and replacement for the starter?
Q3. any ideas on part number or where to buy it?
Q4. anyone know how to open this plastic harness at the battery to inspect?
Q5. wiring at the battery looks like it has been messed with. yes? also where is the fusible link again?
THANKS for any help
also i am re-reading the starting faq this morning...

 

[landcruiser3DP]

more pics

 

[ColoradoBoy]

That fusible link looks done. $14 for a new one, and keep one in the glove compartment as a spare. Hit up Wit's End...

 

[bajaphile]

Yep, your fusible links (shown in 2nd to last picture) "look" like they could be replaced. You can use multimeter and check voltage at each nut there. However you say you're getting just a click at starter... Have you tried tapping it with a hammer? Generally that is due low voltage (bad ground) or worn contacts/plunger in the solenoid. Make sure connections down at starter are tight and clean.

 

[george_tlc]

More than likely the starter. Jumping it just provides a little more oompf for the solenoid (external part of the starter) to engage.

2 bolts hold the starter, access one from the starter motor side and the other from the transmission side (with a few extensions). Easier to pop the DS wheel off and remove the fender skirt. DISCONNECT THE BATTERY POSITIVE before you start working on the starter etc. It's an easy job to get it out and a new one in.

Rockauto has reman denso starters. I wouldn't mess with anything other than a denso.

Of course you could just replace the starter contacts and plunger. Lot's of writeups on doing that.

More searching and you'll find more than you want to know about the starter, fusible links etc. Yeah, the silicone insulation on your links has cracks, time for new ones and as stated, install one and keep the other as a spare.

cheers,
george.

 

[Pirate0187]

I went through this last year. New fusible links and new starter did nothing to fix the issue. I ended up installing the painless performance hotshot relay kit and haven’t had a problem since.

Painless Performance 30202 Painless Performance Hot Shot Relays | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Painless Performance Hot Shot Relays with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Relays at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

 

[TJ Vines]

Like others have said, I'd replace fusible links first and see if that resolves it. If not, rebuild or reman denso starter (disconnect positive terminal first; I learned the hard way...). Both are easy jobs.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

I went through this last year. New fusible links and new starter did nothing to fix the issue. I ended up installing the painless performance hotshot relay kit and haven’t had a problem since.

Painless Performance 30202 Painless Performance Hot Shot Relays | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Painless Performance Hot Shot Relays with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Relays at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

one of the guys on the taco forum were talking about adding an old school relay due to some issue with toyota starting. actually both the 1st gen taco and the 80 were down yesterday but no need to go into it.
anyway, is there a conventional starter relay in the tacoma and where is it please?
and what problem does this relay solve? i might put one in the glove box for the tacoma and the 80...
THANKS

 

[landcruiser3DP]

anyone know where the relay is for the alarm on the LX as long as i am troubleshooting? i think i found the relay for the power windows where you jumper per @LandCruiserPhil
anyone know where the alarm for the LX relay is?

 

[landcruiser3DP]

new fusible link is in. large gauge wires go to large post i guess and smaller gauge wires do to smaller post.
unfortunately new fusible link did not solve it.
so i am thinking i can verify 12 volts is getting to the starter and if so replace the starter.
or there is an outside chance the relay for the LX alarm took a dive.
short of those two not sure where to look except that old style relay but not sure what problem that is solving exactly...

 

[george_tlc]

You stated in your 1st post that it starts if jump started. That in of itself means that the problem is not alarm related, not fusible link related, etc.

If it still will start with a jump, then I would focus on the starter and the BAT+ connection from the battery to the starter versus visiting other enticing rabbit holes

The solenoid (on the starter) has a smaller gauge wire, if that is connected momentarily to +12V the starter should crank. If it doesn't then the solenoid is your problem (assuming a solid BAT+ cable as above and a solid BAT- connection to the engine block). The starter gets its BAT- (ground) via the bolts that hold it to the flywheel assembly.

cheers,
george.

 

[nemoblackdog]

The "old school" relay and the Hotshot Performance relay kits do the same thing: both allow full battery voltage to be applied to the "S" (starting) terminal of the starter. (This is the terminal on the starter with the smaller gauge wire.)

What can happen on a lot of cars (our 80s included) is that the starting circuit degrades over time and eventually is unable to supply full voltage under starting load to the S terminal. There's a number of components in the chain from battery to the starter, and some or, more likely, multiples of which, can degrade over time, increasing the resistance in the circuit. Typical symptoms are a click, but no crank, and often worse at higher temps (for most electrical components, resistance goes up with temperature.)

The relay kit allows you to bypass that whole chain of switches (at least two), wiring and splices (at least three), and ensure full voltage gets to the starter. A good number of us have installed such relay kits and it has proven to be a solid, reliable fix.

That said, this is not to say this is the problem you're seeing. It could be the starter itself, or the main battery cables going to the starter. And you've already done some basic, solid diagnosis to check the battery, fusible links and battery cables. Given that a good number of folks here have spent literally years chasing similar issues (and literally thousands have others have done so on similarly compromised starting circuits on other brands of vehicles), this is not an uncommon problem. I'd go so far as to say it affects a decent number of our aging 80s. If the fault is in the degradation of the stock wiring, which contains multiple factory splices, replacing that part of circuitry is not trivial.

Happily, Installing one of these relay kits is not difficult, and certainly easier than replacing parts of the factory wiring harness that has degraded.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

You stated in your 1st post that it starts if jump started. That in of itself means that the problem is not alarm related, not fusible link related, etc.

If it still will start with a jump, then I would focus on the starter and the BAT+ connection from the battery to the starter versus visiting other enticing rabbit holes

The solenoid (on the starter) has a smaller gauge wire, if that is connected momentarily to +12V the starter should crank. If it doesn't then the solenoid is your problem (assuming a solid BAT+ cable as above and a solid BAT- connection to the engine block). The starter gets its BAT- (ground) via the bolts that hold it to the flywheel assembly.

cheers,
george.

thanks a lot george.
so one of those small wires (or the big wire i guess) coming off the POS pole and down to the starter solenoid or the starter? make sure i see 12 V down at the starter?
and if i do it may be the solenoid in the starter is gummed up?

 

[landcruiser3DP]

The "old school" relay and the Hotshot Performance relay kits do the same thing: both allow full battery voltage to be applied to the "S" (starting) terminal of the starter. (This is the terminal on the starter with the smaller gauge wire.)

What can happen on a lot of cars (our 80s included) is that the starting circuit degrades over time and eventually is unable to supply full voltage under starting load to the S terminal. There's a number of components in the chain from battery to the starter, and some or, more likely, multiples of which, can degrade over time, increasing the resistance in the circuit. Typical symptoms are a click, but no crank, and often worse at higher temps (for most electrical components, resistance goes up with temperature.)

The relay kit allows you to bypass that whole chain of switches (at least two), wiring and splices (at least three), and ensure full voltage gets to the starter. A good number of us have installed such relay kits and it has proven to be a solid, reliable fix.

That said, this is not to say this is the problem you're seeing. It could be the starter itself, or the main battery cables going to the starter. And you've already done some basic, solid diagnosis to check the battery, fusible links and battery cables. Given that a good number of folks here have spent literally years chasing similar issues (and literally thousands have others have done so on similarly compromised starting circuits on other brands of vehicles), this is not an uncommon problem. I'd go so far as to say it affects a decent number of our aging 80s. If the fault is in the degradation of the stock wiring, which contains multiple factory splices, replacing that part of circuitry is not trivial.

Happily, Installing one of these relay kits is not difficult, and certainly easier than replacing parts of the factory wiring harness that has degraded.

hey man. one more please?!
if i HEAR “click, click” this means the starter is getting power to a relay at the solenoid but the solenoid is not engaging?
and if i hear it cranking but not turning over this means the solenoid is closing and the starter is working but the engine is not running.
yes?!

 

[george_tlc]

thanks a lot george.
so one of those small wires (or the big wire i guess) coming off the POS pole and down to the starter solenoid or the starter? make sure i see 12 V down at the starter?
and if i do it may be the solenoid in the starter is gummed up?

Big heavy wire from Postive of battery direct to the Starter. That's the high current connection to spin the starter motor and the flywheel/motor etc. The thin wire is from the ignition key being turned to the Start/Crank position. You should see +12V at the big cable on the starter and +12V when the ignition is turned to Start/Crank on the little wire.

A wire from Positive of battery touched onto the thin wire connection point on the starter 'should' cause the solenoid to clunk and the starter to crank and spin the engine (obviously it wont start since the ignition key is off), but will let you verify that the starter is actually ok.

I wouldn't trust an auto-monkey shop (oreillys etc) to 'test' the starter - that bench test is mostly useless.

cheers,
george.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

Big heavy wire from Postive of battery direct to the Starter. That's the high current connection to spin the starter motor and the flywheel/motor etc. The thin wire is from the ignition key being turned to the Start/Crank position. You should see +12V at the big cable on the starter and +12V when the ignition is turned to Start/Crank on the little wire.

A wire from Positive of battery touched onto the thin wire connection point on the starter 'should' cause the solenoid to clunk and the starter to crank and spin the engine (obviously it wont start since the ignition key is off), but will let you verify that the starter is actually ok.

I wouldn't trust an auto-monkey shop (oreillys etc) to 'test' the starter - that bench test is mostly useless.

cheers,
george.

THANK YOU george.
a couple more please.
i can test with a MM after taking the tire off and see if i can get 12V at the starter at the heavy gauge wire.
can i turn key to ACC and then get under there and test to see if i also get 12 V to the solenoid?
i guess i can since it will be in PARK and no one in the truck?
then at that point, we’ll what do i do at that point? i can take a lead from a spare battery and run it to the small gauge wire at the solenoid and touch it to the bolt and see if i hear the solenoid engage? or what is the steps at this point once i see 12V at these two locations please?
i mean right now i don’t hear the solenoid engaging since i just hear “click” and i should hear THUNK” is that right? and if the starter was working i would hear “RRRRRR, RRRRRR” is that right?
also. if i wanted to jump it and run around and charge the battery and when bring it back and turn it off and see if it started i could. and then let it sit overnight to see if it was getting a parasitic drain?
but instead i can just run out and see 12.85 Volts at the battery now with my $50 fluke 87 and i know i have a good battery and no parasitic drain?
is that right?!

 

[george_tlc]

No, you'll only get +12V on the small wire at the starter motor while cranking. That is what engages the solenoid on the starter to spin it up. And the solenoid when it engages will make a very loud and obvious clunk and of course the loud RRRRR as you say.

Yep, fully charged battery should be around 12.8V with engine off and just sitting there.

Note that measuring +12V at the starter end of the big positive cable doesn't mean much in terms of a good cable connection. What really counts is what you measure under load (starter spinning). First job of course is to get the solenoid on the starter to clunk with authority, and when it does that the starter will spin...

At this point you could have already removed the starter and replaced the contacts and plunger and reinstalled it

cheers,
george.

 

[landcruiser3DP]

No, you'll only get +12V on the small wire at the starter motor while cranking. That is what engages the solenoid on the starter to spin it up. And the solenoid when it engages will make a very loud and obvious clunk and of course the loud RRRRR as you say.

Yep, fully charged battery should be around 12.8V with engine off and just sitting there.

Note that measuring +12V at the starter end of the big positive cable doesn't mean much in terms of a good cable connection. What really counts is what you measure under load (starter spinning). First job of course is to get the solenoid on the starter to clunk with authority, and when it does that the starter will spin...

At this point you could have already removed the starter and replaced the contacts and plunger and reinstalled it

cheers,
george.

oof. i always start out wanting to learn something then half way through i just want to be done with it.

A. 12 Volts at the big starter wire or you have a problem upstream? and even if you DO SEE 12 V you still may have a problem because it may not give you 12 V when the starter is pulling Amps and turning over?
A1. but i won’t know this anyway since if the starter was turning over i wouldn’t be in there trying to figure anything out is what you are saying?
B. the Volts at the solenoid wire is WHEN KEY IS IN ACC mode? and nothing when it is simply in the ignition? so what is the diagnostic here please? if i put the key to ACC and don’t hear the klunk of it engaging and THEN i get down there and i see 12 V at the cable i know it is starter solenoid? and if i don’t see 12 V i have a problem upstream?
B1. so why bother since if you see 12 V down there i am just verifying the solenoid is not working and i may as well just replace the starter at this point?

 

[lazy]

I went down this road friday. And I'm still going down it.

Fluid Leak on rear of engine

Reinstalled starter and the vehicle fired right up. Tested again, fired right up. Turned off, reinstalled wheel, put some tools away, tried again and no crank. I'm going to try the fusible links, but the cruiser may need to stay home this trip. Unfortunate because life is always more fun...

forum.ih8mud.com

I'm convinced my problem is somewhere in the wiring since my reman denso starter is pretty new. I'm currently at the nss which some people have had issues with. But, georg is correct, you need to really measure the voltage when putting some current to it. I megged mine and i am about 50% confident i did that correctly so i have some confidence in my power lead. A power lead is easy enough to make especially if you have some cable laying around.

I think isolsting if it is the thin wire or the fat wire at the starter is a good place to begin. If you can re-enact the no start problem and drag a wire from positive to the solenoid (thin wire) and get the starter to turn over you can have confidence in the starter, power lead and then start trouble shooting the solenoid circuit, which you should probably start at the nss...my opinion from someone who hasn't fixed their issue....

 

[george_tlc]

oof. i always start out wanting to learn something then half way through i just want to be done with it.

A. 12 Volts at the big starter wire or you have a problem upstream? and even if you DO SEE 12 V you still may have a problem because it may not give you 12 V when the starter is pulling Amps and turning over?
A1. but i won’t know this anyway since if the starter was turning over i wouldn’t be in there trying to figure anything out is what you are saying?
B. the Volts at the solenoid wire is WHEN KEY IS IN ACC mode? and nothing when it is simply in the ignition? so what is the diagnostic here please? if i put the key to ACC and don’t hear the klunk of it engaging and THEN i get down there and i see 12 V at the cable i know it is starter solenoid? and if i don’t see 12 V i have a problem upstream?
B1. so why bother since if you see 12 V down there i am just verifying the solenoid is not working and i may as well just replace the starter at this point?

A1: No. You ONLY get +12V on the thin wire at the starter when you turn the ignition key to start/crank. 0V the rest of the time. That thin wire is what energizes the solenoid that pulls the plunger to bridge the contacts that take the big +12V cable power and route it to the starter motor.

A simple test, get a few feet of wire (16g is fine) and connect to the battery +12V and then take the other end and touch it to the thin wire on the starter. Do this when it won't crank with the ignition key. If it cranks with the new wire when you touch to the thin wire connector on the starter then the problem is somewhere else (NSS, harness, ignition switch etc). If it doesn't crank and only clicks then the starter solenoid is your problem.

cheers,
george.