5.7 Vortec V-8 Swap / 86 FJ60

[devo]

Elbert,
When I looked into timing as a part of my vortec setup I was told by the gm people that you cannot time a vortec. They are set from the factory and that is it. Did you remove and replace the distributor? I found vortec timing info by doing a www search. Wish I could find it for you now.

devo

 

[Elbert]

Devo

maybe timing is the wrong word to use. Yes I removed the distributor... once to change the intake gasket on the original engine....2nd to swap intakes on the new GM longblock. You install the distributor with the engine at # 1 on compression stroke. You have the rotor button pointing to the #8 tab that's inside the distributor. You then are suppose to start the engine and connect scan tool to monitor the camshaft retard offset angle. At 1,000 rpm the angle is suppose to read 0 degrees. If you can not adjust the distributor within its range to read 0 degrees you have to pull the distriubtor out and start over. I'm summarizing the procedure from 6-1427 of the 2nd volume of the GM Shop manual.

I'm in the process of working with my friend to get his scan tool updated so I can monitor so called enhanced OBD2 parameters.

I have the shop manual that matches the year engine. But as you've noticed in some of my questions the shop manaul has few if any referneces to the vaccum hoses. Anyway I have two good printouts that show that now (parts print outs). I belive I"m good on the vaccum setup now.

Technically it may not be called adjusting the timing, but close enough... Shop manual talks about dist install in the area of 6-797.

I've spoken to a couple of guys that are full time mechanics (friends)....all of whom said to verfiy the distributor install. As I stated before I had assumed that since no check engine light...then no problem with the distributor install. Before I proceed into the world of the ECM I need to verify the distributor setup. After that I only see that the issue could be either fuel or ECM related. My fuel pressue is good.

The basic issue with the truck right now is that it idles rough, and very rich. It will not take much throttle over idle. At this point I want to make sure that everything is correct and I've run down all the obvious issues before I start screwing with the ECM.

If you don't have a tuner package its a little hard to see what's been turned off and what's not been turned off as far as ECM related switches and sensors. So before I dive back in that hole I need to make sure the dist is right. There is adjustment in the distributor setup, you just don't set in in the engine and you're ready to go. (seems like it should be that way...)

I'm been looking at two products... one is called HP-tuner and the other is Jet-DST. We'll see in about a week or so if I go down the tuner road or send the ECM off to someone again, not a huge dollar difference. Since I'm not changing fuel maps or ign settings.... I might be brave enough to screw with this myself.

 

[iaintscared1969]

Remember Elbert the ECU can compensate for the timing...If it was installed wrong you will need to double check it anyways. The ECU programming if you had a tuner would be easy.

 

[devo]

Elbert that is all good info and I'm glad you have at least ruled out the timing. I am wondering why if you set the #1 at compression why don't you set the rotor button at #1?
After I posted #181 I went out on a F-ing limb and payed $9.00 to Just Answer web site and asked about timing a 1997 vortec.

This was the returned answer: The distributor ignition system has no provisions for timing adjusments. The base timing is preset when the engine is manufactured and no adjusment is possible.*
* Ignition timing can be changed by reprogramming the PCM using Techline Information System 2000 (TIS2000) PC, and the Tech 2 scan tool.

Looks like I'm a 1 post and a dollor short on this one!

devo

 

[Elbert]

To answer your question I would need to know more than I do.... My assumption is that, you may very well be doing this, but the references are marked in the dist housing and you are not referencing the cap. OF course its understood that the ECM controls the actual timing.

I'm going to use the word base timing to to reference the engine at TDC # 1 cylinder and if the rotor button was pointing to # 1 plug wire. THe computer has to know what relationship there is between the cam and crankshaft. I realize that this engine has a crank sensor and a cam sensor. But the instructions are clear that the cam retard offset angle has to read 0 degrees at 1000 RPM.

It does say in the manual "The ignition timing cannot be adjusted)... which means to me that the ECM has full control.

My assumption on your question is that there must be some issue with the setup of the distributor as to why the so called base timing is not set from the postion of TDC at #1 cylinder and the rotor button aligned with #1 plug wire.

When I followed the instructions in the manual I did not bother to see where the rotor button was in regard to the # 1 plug wire. It may very well be in alignment. If you take the cap off and look at the edge of the dist housing you'll see a little "dimple" with the #8 stamped on it. The instructions say that with the engine at #1 TDC the distributor fully seated, the rotor button should point at or very close to the little #8 reference in the distributor.

Of course the check to all of this is the scan tool, where you read the cam offset angle.

I suspect the electronics on the engine require the distributior to be in a certain "phase" with the cam and crank....which may not necesarily aligin itself with the old school rotor button point to #1 plug wire at TDC # 1 cylinder. THese ECMs have full control of the distributor...unlike the older ECM controlled trucks like my 92 K1500, and unlike no ECM control with even older trucks that had vaccum or mechanical advance. As soon as the ECM has power and the truck starts.... the ECM is running the show. But that said.... there has to be an adjustment with the actual rotation of the distributor...."cam offset angle". The ECM has to have a valid reference point or its not going to have a good baseline to adjust timing from. I may be lumping some of these technical terms together... I quit playing mechanic back in 1989...

THe bottom line on these engines is that you need a good scan tool and the ECM setup correctly for these things to work (in my case certain things need to be turned off) like EGR, Rear O2 sensors, auto trans, vats, ...


Just dawned on me something else to make note of... THe dist cap on these engines is a little unique. Basically it has 4 ports to the right and 4 ports to the left. There is no equal spacing between the plug wires rotationaly spaced evenly around the cap (like the old school dist caps)... So pointing to the number one plug wire at the dist cap may be "impossible".... I have used the word timing in the wrong context....so you'll have to pardon me for that. I screw around with my own junk and depend on my mechanic friends to set me strait. I changed career fields a long time ago and so technology has passed me by somewhat, in that I can't stay current with everything... I just try to have a reasonable understanding of the systems. Of course it helps when I can drop by the local GM shop and ask questions of my freind who I worked with for a few years back between 1986...1988, to see where I've screwed up.

 

[Elbert]

Am I going to set the record for the longest time to complete an engine swap?

 

[Dynosoar]

I am betting you are having an O2 sensor problem. Those pesky sensors will mess up a vortec really bad. Manuchao is catching up to you, we put his harness in and hooked up his power steering this week. He may still beat you.

Dynosoar

 

[Lance Lucas]

Elbert, a lack of timing on an OBD-II ECU won't make the truck run rich. It should be idling in closed-loop operation and actively correcting fueling off of the front O2 sensor(s).

Also, most modern OBD-II cars use camshaft and crankshaft position sensors. It will throw a code(s) if they are not timed correctly. You can probably verify existance of these codes somewhere.

Good luck...

 

[Elbert]

Correction on info I supplied.

GM engine assembly is from a 1999 GMC Yukon, 5.7.

Waiting to look into PCM issues.... While I'm not sure what might be different between a 98 and 99 Yukon, just wanted to set the record strait.

I'm going to see if the ECM can be "re-flashed" to stock and then I will set the parameters I want on or off via a "tuner package"..... Waiting on software package to arrive. I spoke to some people and they were of the opinion that the PCM is either "tuned" wrong or is hosed..

 

[brokenparts]

Man, I applaud you for taking the vortec swap on... That's alot of headache to deal with and the #1 reason I'm running a TBI set up or possibly pane in the future but I bet the vortec set up will be much nicer after the bugs are worked out. Keep it up!

 

[Elbert]

Bob,

Do you know what the deal is on this injector "upgrade"... it you look up that part number is says for trucks with CA emissions. I assume an injector "kit" is the same for CA vehicles as it is for the other states...

Anyone know

looks like things are coming along well for you. love the play by play, especially the stuff you discovered list. it brings back all the memories of going through this process when i did the 5.7 transplant back in 2001.
one (another) item to put on your list is the csfi to mpfi upgrade. the fuel injection "spider" is so poor on these engines and destine to fail that gm has real fuel injectors to replace the oem junk. the oem csfi has poppet valves on the ends and it relies on fuel pressure to pop them open. pressure <45psi. the up grade dumps the poppets for real infectors.
the part # is pk93441235
available through dealers and gmparts direct.
check out this site for cool pictures GM VORTEC CSFI to MPFI CONVERSION

devo

 

[Elbert]

Yeah, part of this has been a real pain in the @$$...

I was looking for a TBI engine when I came across the vortec. TBI is a lot cheaper all around to deal with. Especailly on a modified vehicle. I have a TBI in my pickup.

Man, I applaud you for taking the vortec swap on... That's alot of headache to deal with and the #1 reason I'm running a TBI set up or possibly pane in the future but I bet the vortec set up will be much nicer after the bugs are worked out. Keep it up!

 

[Elbert]

Update..

I think I have found in part what the "running rich" business is. My friend came over today along with a GM Tech 2 scan tool. We were going to "re-flash" the PCM but there was some issue with that and it would not work. Anyway we scan the truck and run some diagnostic tests (tech 2 is the $&$%^) for GM scan tools. Found out that I have two dead cylinders which most likely are faulty injectors. I know the cylinders are mechanically sound, I have new plugs, new wires, new rotor button, new cap...etc...

Boy what luck I've had with this thing...

I'll replace the injector assembly in a week or two and see where that goes (prior to screwing with the PCM). I'll have to replace the plugs, and 02 sensors too (they are fouled.... nice and black). I'll also change the oil and filter.

Wish I had him come over and scan the truck a long time ago... but anyway... that may be part if not the whole issue with the running rich business.

So maybe in a week or so I'll see what next to bite me in the @$$. I know this scan tool I'm using could use some improvement but its hard to gripe about a free-be...

 

[iaintscared1969]

Now you know why I bit the bullet and bought a Genysis. For guys that do this every day it is like having a good set of stubby wrenches in the box. May use it once a day sometimes. Glad you are in the clear so to speak. Keep us posted on the outcome. Frank is quickly trying to catch you!!

 

[Elbert]

That Genysis stuff looks "cool" and $$$$ ... Kind of reminds me of the toyota scan stool my friend used to look at a tacoma pickup I once had. Don't guess they are the same ?

Bring it on Frank!

I would wager that the looser has to buy the winner lunch or dinner, but we live a long way from each other and Randy is about in the middle.

We don't have that many cruisers around this area. But my friend bought a project 40... and some guy in town has a Canadan diesel 40 and a 80... Once the project 40 gets working we may try to go on some runs with the guys in MS and TN.. OH....yea.. and when my 60 "gets right"

 

[iaintscared1969]

SOUNDS LIKE WE GOT A WAGER HERE!!!! Frank get off of your full point of contact and get after it!!!!

 

[MANUCHAO]

Im trying.....Im trying..........

 

[Elbert]

Plugs

Ok,

I've swapped the 02 sensors, changed spark plugs, and changed engine oil and filter. See the evidence of a a very rich running engine. While the pics are a little hard to see....you get the "picture"....

Waiting on new injector kit to show up, then I'll pull the upper intake off and swap injectors & spider setup.

While I did not take a picture of the 02 sensors... they look the same....black crap "raw fuel" all over them.

 

[devo]

.

Bob,

Do you know what the deal is on this injector "upgrade"... it you look up that part number is says for trucks with CA emissions. I assume an injector "kit" is the same for CA vehicles as it is for the other states...

Anyone know

Elbert,
Did GM make any of these engines for other than emission vehicles? Maybe cop cars or something?
I don't think the injector kit has to do with emissions except to maybe lower them due to better fuel delivery.
It was a mess under my intake plenum when I did my swap. Those poppet valve spider injectors leak gas and make a mess. I could tell right away after installing the new injectors, smoother idle, way smoother excelleration.
I also got my best price from the local Chevy dealer.

devo

 

[Elbert]

Devo,

As far as I know the 5.7 Vortec only came in trucks... pickups, SUV, and vans...

I bought the injector setup from gmpartsdirect.... maybe I'll get it in a few days. Yes when I changed the upper intake gasket a long time ago, prior to the swap. I noticed that it was a mess under there..."black crap everywhere"... so the original engine may have been leaking fuel for a while. At the time I guess I did not pay enough attention to that.

Yes...when I removed the upper intake I was not happy with the "spider" setup. I thought at the time that it was just an accident waiting to happen.

I've seen where some guys are running a 5.7 marine intake, but I'm just looking to get something that runs clean and smooth. Stock power levels will be fine for the LC. It will be nice once I'm able to drive this thing.

I need to run it to see what other minor things may become apparent....not been able to get to that step yet.

The magnatitude of the raw fuel issue was not apparent to me at first.... I'm learning.. I knew it was rich, but assumed it was the ECM. Hopefully I'll know something within the week.

Did your local dealer stock the "upgraded injector"?

Elbert

Elbert,
Did GM make any of these engines for other than emission vehicles? Maybe cop cars or something?
I don't think the injector kit has to do with emissions except to maybe lower them due to better fuel delivery.
It was a mess under my intake plenum when I did my swap. Those poppet valve spider injectors leak gas and make a mess. I could tell right away after installing the new injectors, smoother idle, way smoother excelleration.
I also got my best price from the local Chevy dealer.

devo