I seem to recall Toyota had a sizable stake in Tesla stock for a while (maybe learned a few things?). And now Toyota has a new joint venture with Panasonic to create Prime Planet Energy & Solutions, Inc., A new firm focused on battery technology.
300 series revealed? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter NMNORSSE
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I don't understand how the infrastructure for EV will work on a large scale. At a gas station you pull in, fill up in 5 minutes and go. A EV takes at least 20 minutes. Which I have a tough time believing people will put up with that length of time. Anyway I imagine you would need to convert all gas stations to EV charging stations. Then u would need to increase the amount of stations overall several times the amount currently to offset the longer times a EV will take to charge. In areas that have fairly cold winters you would need even more stations than that since cold weather greatly reduces battery life. I imagine electric utility companies will have to increase their capacity a great deal as well.
Carbon battery technology today claims an energy density equal to Lithium batteries, will be cheaper to make, and recharge about 20 times faster. I haven't stayed up to date on the super capacitor technology, but that should be really quick if they get it to work in a practical automotive sense.
I think I read an article about a test for an induction charge cable being laid in the road (in Norway?). Interesting idea - charge while driving on the highway, use the battery-only mode on secondary roads.
Still none of that does much for those pesky off-road people. In an older thread I mentioned the concept of the modern locomotive engine. Electric motors for torque and control at the wheels. Diesel engines to provide power to the motors. With a few more electric/battery/engine efficiency improvements this might work for off-road.
I'm tired of 300 series speculation. I predict the 400 series will make diff lockers obsolete by use of 4 in-wheel electric motors powered by a hybrid power source. This will provide for user/computer selection of any combination of driven wheels, all electronically synchronized.
I think the next 10-20 years could be very interesting.
mcgaskins
SILVER Star
There are far more charging stations already in existence today compared to gas stations. You can plug an EV into just about any existing electrical outlet, and you can easily wire in 240v for significantly faster charging than the household 120v. Most people rarely if ever consistently exceed the range of a Model 3 in a single day, and most people live in a place where they can charge every night when they get home. A Model 3 plugged into 120v in the garage at home will charge at 5 miles of range per hour or ~32 miles of range per hour on 240v. If most people park for 12 hours a night, that anywhere from 60 miles of range to a completely full battery pack of over 300 miles of range. Most people also live close to where DC fast chargers exist and the number of stations are increasing exponentially. The idea of waiting around for your car to charge isn't really a thing if you start every morning with a "full tank" and can charge for free while you're at work or shopping which will definitely become far more common in the future.
It’s really a non-issue for the vast majority of uses. The only time that scenario comes into play is on long road trips. Most of us drive no more than 50 miles a day. With ranges for all-electrics now exceeding 300 miles it would be a rare event to need a roadside charge in daily use. Just plug it in every night or two and you’re good.
It's already here..in pockets.
I just got back from a 500 mile road trip. I negotiate with my wife to take her Model 3 (to her dismay as she loves the thing) as it's my preferred vehicle for long distance travel when not having to haul the whole family. As comfortable and luxurious as the LX is, the Tesla is just stupendously good as a trip / GT car. Efficient and effortless. Technology laden with driving aids to navigate LA traffic, it's just brilliant.
Charging is no different than getting gas. More relaxing really as there's often shopping centers, refreshments, or I can just lounge and rest in the car. The latest chargers are blazingly fast, peaking at 1,000 mile replenished / hr. Most installations aren't the latest V3 superchargers yet but are still plenty fast. Most charging on the road if I have to at all is 10-20 minutes, just enough time to grab a refreshment and relax a bit.
The majority of charging is done at home anyways as others have pointed out. Scaling will be done over the existing electrical infrastructure and its unused capacity outside of peak hours.
I'm keenly watching the 300-series as it will have to win its place in my garage. Never thought I'd say that, especially as I never thought I'd lean more towards the much unknown cybertruck. The performance, efficiency, and capacities are really speaking to me. Including the unique bed design with its car camping possibilities.
bloc
SILVER Star
And yet there are quite a few members here that paid 70k+ for new 2019 and 2020 200s.
I mean I get how people with garages or driveways could charge at home. But in the city I live in the majority of people park on the street since they live in condos/apartments. Most the people I work with commute a significant distance since the cost of living in the area of my workplace is significant. So charging would have to be done at a station somewhere unless u line each city block with like 100 chargers. When I lived in New York, thousands and thousands of people would drive one way 100 miles or more to commute to NYC with lots of stop and go. And it's pretty cold winters which would kill a electric cars range. I question if a electric car could make it. In addition the gas stations in these areas are packed. It's great you have no problem relaxing for 20 minutes to charge. But I question if today's mass of driving society will deal with that.
I’ve had a Tesla for almost 6 years. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve not charged at home. Imagine you woke up every day with a full tank, how often would you need to fill up
I'd love to get 15mpg
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the Model 3. I'm considering the M3, as my commute starting this year is now 80 miles daily round trip 4-5x/wk in the LX; needless to say I have gotten to know the local gas attendant very well. Over night charging, not having to get gas, and not having to maintain an ICE is appealing.
I'm keeping an eye on the Model 3's reliability and how fast the tires have to be replaced. Some friends of mine with the Model S have had some issues with the electronics, so I'm hoping these issues are sorted out on the 3.
I think it’s hilarious that the gear junkie that had to have an extra gas tank so he didn’t have to stop so often doesn’t mind waiting to charge his a Tesla. Both you and Cole have forced me to re-consider my opinion of EV’s but I am laughing at how we justify our decisions.
I have seen a few articles that make a very good case for hybrids and I can see them in the off road future.
lowenbrau
SILVER Star
I’d love an EV. A number of my colleagues have Teslas and charge them in the parkade at work. I work for a large electric infrastructure construction company so it seems reasonable to support EVs even in an oil and gas driven local economy. The trouble is that we have no reliable, low carbon way of producing the electricity so an EV is pretty much coal powered around here. A diesel rig is greener than an EV and might be cheaper to run if taxes and subsidies were out of the equation. I’m looking forward to a world where we can store electricity more efficiently and where wind and solar and tidal and and thermal and nuclear could power the grids.
Biodiesel from algae would tick off a lot of boxes for me though. Toyota’s 1VD-FTV seems lovely.
Biodiesel from algae would tick off a lot of boxes for me though. Toyota’s 1VD-FTV seems lovely.
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Wife's BMW lease is up in Dec, likely will get an M3 as a second vehicle. Not going to lie, the tri-motor cyber truck really piques my interest. I think Tesla will be dominating the auto market within 5-10 years. They have such a significant advantage out of the gate on all fronts (battery manufacturing/software/charging infrastructure network), it will take years for other makers to catch up.
bloc
SILVER Star
Can we please avoid turning yet another landcruiser thread into a tesla circle jerk?
Hah, fair point! From another perspective, my wife has a significant commute and loath to get gas, is exactly why we have the Tesla. 98% of the time, it's charged at home. My post earlier about superchargers was to show that road trips are viable. Because of all the driver aids that help me relax on the road with a stressful business trip agenda, it's a fair trade for the slightly longer charging stops. Did I mention it's a lane assassin? Squeeze through openings in LA traffic like I would with the 200-series bruiser...with instant prodigious power, I take what I want.
Bringing this back to the 300-series. I'm afraid it's going to miss on two points. 1) Advanced drivers aids 2) Efficiency
I've sampled some of the latest Lexus drivers aids in a 2020 RX. Archaic by comparison. Toyota has traditionally been pretty conservative here behind the competitive set. Contrasting to Tesla which is well on the other side of the spectrum.
Efficiency, The 300-series will move the needle with the Twin Turbo V6 Hybrid. Considering that the newest Toyota Rav4 is rated 41/38 mpg which is impressive for a welterweight SUV. The Highlander Hybrid at 34 combined. I don't think the 300-series will be these types of efficiency focused hybrids. It'll be more of a performance hybrid like an RX 450h which is ~29 combined. I believe the 300-series may see something like 17-19 mpg combined.
Is that doing enough when we have disruptive technologies competing? I'm still unsure.
If the 300 can shed 800lbs and get closer to the 100 series weight, maybe using more aluminum, I would think you could get 22-24 mpg hwy with turbo V-6 and a 8-10sp which is similar to ford trucks that aren't awd. The hybrid would help with in town mpg. Please don't add start/stop technology.
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This right here is my biggest beef with full blown EV’s. They’re just adding to the burden of the electric grid. Given the inefficiency and cost of wind power, and I think the cost of actually doing tidal power (corrosion, cost of install/service), leaves only solar as a viable alternative energy source. I don’t see alternative energy replacing nuclear or fossil fuel and until that is viable, the demand for electricity will outpace supply, increasing our need In some markets for fossil fuel powered plants, which makes the whole EV push a bit of a wash. With a hybrid (small diesel generator) powering batteries on 4 x electric motored wheels, I believe we could see an actual decrease in fossil fuel use, and an increase in reliability/longevity. Just my thoughts.
Living in Angola Africa, I drive a manual gearbox 1VD 200 with 3 x lockers and no KDSS. I love it! Even still, if Toyota released something like I described with the ability to still ford rivers and live up to the Landcruiser legend, than I’d be all in.
As long as start stop can be turned off, I’m fine with it.
