My 2 cents--usually valve stem seal issue will show up upon startup-blue smoke-goes away as soon as engine starts heating--not seen the smoke after getting to op temp--but if they are leaking really bad, might see the smoke on hard accel?
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For sure.
1st repair I had to do. Truck had sat and was only used intermittently. Smoke was at start up. New seals added and no smoke afterward.
love2fly
Flying the Mountains of the NW
- Thread starter
- #23
So you guys are suggesting that its possible that the seals rubber may of hardened to the point that they are just now letting oil pass. I know there is a way to replace them just need to do some investigating into them and what it takes to replace them.
I do remember reading about something like that a few years ago, maybe here on Mud.
Will add that yesterday I notice that the timing cover has that dreaded oily mist around the case making me believe that this could be the possible problem of most of the oil loss and the PVC maybe a smaller problem were it getting into the intake and burning off oil.
Defiantly will be replacing the gasket on the timing cover so that will be in the works also.
Thanks guys I will check into the valve stem seal possibility.
Cheers
I do remember reading about something like that a few years ago, maybe here on Mud.
Will add that yesterday I notice that the timing cover has that dreaded oily mist around the case making me believe that this could be the possible problem of most of the oil loss and the PVC maybe a smaller problem were it getting into the intake and burning off oil.
Defiantly will be replacing the gasket on the timing cover so that will be in the works also.
Thanks guys I will check into the valve stem seal possibility.
Cheers
fjc-man
SILVER Star
It can be done without compressed air in the cylinder to hold the valves up. The fifty dollar hitchmate step gets you a lot closer to the valve springs.
love2fly
Flying the Mountains of the NW
- Thread starter
- #25
Man I love that step. Yeah I just got back from the folks that did the overhaul asking them what would be the best way to check to confirm that the stem seals are bad or good, answer was remove the valve cover and locate the seal and take a small screw driver that can fit into the spring area or a o- ring puller and press down on the silicon/rubber inside the shell of the seal and see if it has hardened or if it is still soft. If still soft it's good and if hard needs replacing.
He said that the in-line six 2F engines valve covers inside baffling was not the best design as many Chevys six cly and such witch in turn would cause some blow by at times that was considered normal.
Also said the best test for the PVC system is to plug the remove the hose from the intake and plug it, then place fix a rag around the end of the hose and drive for 50 -100 miles and see if the puffs of smoke stop and how much oil is found on the rag. This may help on the oil loose.
I did mention the film of oil around the timing gear cover as an oil loss, this sparked his reply to fix that right away as it maybe an out of alignment crank center seal and left untended can groove the area on the cranks end were the seal goes, bad news if that is happening. He said it not uncommon for the seals to be installed to were it was not centered on the crank correctly.
So I will focus on the timing cover seal now and pickup on the PVC system after that.
Cheers
He said that the in-line six 2F engines valve covers inside baffling was not the best design as many Chevys six cly and such witch in turn would cause some blow by at times that was considered normal.
Also said the best test for the PVC system is to plug the remove the hose from the intake and plug it, then place fix a rag around the end of the hose and drive for 50 -100 miles and see if the puffs of smoke stop and how much oil is found on the rag. This may help on the oil loose.
I did mention the film of oil around the timing gear cover as an oil loss, this sparked his reply to fix that right away as it maybe an out of alignment crank center seal and left untended can groove the area on the cranks end were the seal goes, bad news if that is happening. He said it not uncommon for the seals to be installed to were it was not centered on the crank correctly.
So I will focus on the timing cover seal now and pickup on the PVC system after that.
Cheers
I don’t think the front seal rides directly on the crank shaft, it rides on the harmonic balancer. And if needed a grooved balancer can be repaired with a speedy sleeve.
love2fly
Flying the Mountains of the NW
- Thread starter
- #27
Mark I hope all I need on this is just a new gasket and seal, and use the correct sealing compound (type and amount), and make sure the bolts are in the correct locations.
The shop did not put the timing cover on, this is on me so I may of done something wrong just hoping its not a real bad thing. As most of us do we try to think back to what we did, in this case it was to long ago to remember if it was the bolts or torque was wrong.
I was looking in my 1980 Tan manual for information on the thin sheet that is against the front of the block to see what sealing agent is used. I am hoping that it was sealed by the shop and not the problem.
Cheers
The shop did not put the timing cover on, this is on me so I may of done something wrong just hoping its not a real bad thing. As most of us do we try to think back to what we did, in this case it was to long ago to remember if it was the bolts or torque was wrong.
I was looking in my 1980 Tan manual for information on the thin sheet that is against the front of the block to see what sealing agent is used. I am hoping that it was sealed by the shop and not the problem.
Cheers
Aviation Permatex….and a Felpro timing cover kit….all you need.
Living in the Past
SILVER Star
Doubt this is the problem, but over forty years ago on a deer hunt my friend's 77 FJ40 lost a huge amount of oil in a very short time. He hitch hiked back to camp. We recovered his 40 and found one rocker arm adjustment had come loose. The greatly increased vacuum or pressure probably got past the rings. Cruiser was only six years old and was running great before hand and after readjusting the valves. Quart of oil over a few hundred miles is nothing as drastic and rocker adjustment coming loose but worth checking the valves adjustments.
love2fly
Flying the Mountains of the NW
- Thread starter
- #30
Mark thanks, I did order the gasket kit on Amazon yesterday and still have a tube of that Toyota black sealant, forgot the name, but I do also have some Aviation gasket sealer. I guess the trick is not to much sealer on both sides of the cork gasket and make sure the correct bolts are in proper order and torque. I still need to buy some liquid sealer for the lower two mounting bolt threads.
The leak down and comparison check would of maybe told me if a valve was closed but I plan on doing a valve adjustment after the cover gasket and PVC check.
The engine runs pretty smooth so I also doubt that a valve rocker has failed.
Today the radiator comes out.
Cheers
The leak down and comparison check would of maybe told me if a valve was closed but I plan on doing a valve adjustment after the cover gasket and PVC check.
The engine runs pretty smooth so I also doubt that a valve rocker has failed.
Today the radiator comes out.
Cheers
My timing cover gasket was leaking badly when I bought my 40 so I replaced it. Didn’t use any sealer on the cork gasket and it held fine for about 1.5 years without any leaks until I took it apart for the engine rebuild. Considering that I’m going to be putting this back together again soon... Can people respond as to whether or not that cork gasket should have sealer? I’ve always believed cork gaskets shouldn’t have sealer so they can soak up the oil and expand. Which is correct?
I paint a light coating of Aviation Permatex on the side cover, timing cover and oil pan gasketed areas (on the metal pieces)….mostly to hold in place ‘till I get the covers on….and I dab it on the fastener threads. On the cork valve cover gasket, I use a light coating of grease….
Never had any leakage issues…the Felpro gaskets are cork and rubber, and I find them more forgiving than the OEM cork only gaskets. And I can still get Felpro for the F-engine from Auto-Zone.
They’re kind of hard to see in the pictures, but I also use chrome 6mm socket head fasteners to secure the covers…. just kind of dresses up the assembly.
Never had any leakage issues…the Felpro gaskets are cork and rubber, and I find them more forgiving than the OEM cork only gaskets. And I can still get Felpro for the F-engine from Auto-Zone.
They’re kind of hard to see in the pictures, but I also use chrome 6mm socket head fasteners to secure the covers…. just kind of dresses up the assembly.
love2fly
Flying the Mountains of the NW
- Thread starter
- #33
Pitter - That's a good qestion on the cork versus sealer or no sealer. I have in the past installed cork gaskets without a sealer depending were it is going and if they are any pressurized oil/fuel components I will use a sealant thats just me. I believe the Toyota manual says to use a sealant and if so it would be wise to do so. I know it can get plenty hot around the timing cover and a good non hardening sealant will hold back any oil being pressurized from within the engine as long as it is resident to oil.
I also use the Aviation #3 sealant on many applications to include this one I am fixing but I now believe I may of screw up the bolt size install.
Mark do you an acid brush and just brush on a small amount of aviation sealant on both sides of the gasket and then install all the bolts with a thread sealant or just the two lower around the six o'clock area on the cover. Or should I ask if you just use the aviation sealant on all the bolts?
I have been shopping for a thread sealant but I am now thinking the Aviation sealant will work for the threads also.
By the way you engine is looking good.
Cheers
I also use the Aviation #3 sealant on many applications to include this one I am fixing but I now believe I may of screw up the bolt size install.
Mark do you an acid brush and just brush on a small amount of aviation sealant on both sides of the gasket and then install all the bolts with a thread sealant or just the two lower around the six o'clock area on the cover. Or should I ask if you just use the aviation sealant on all the bolts?
I have been shopping for a thread sealant but I am now thinking the Aviation sealant will work for the threads also.
By the way you engine is looking good.
Cheers
I just use the Pematex….I brush it on the metal parts, engine and cover (acid brush attached to the bottle cap), semi-generously. Then lay the gasket in position and then install tighten the fasteners. I always dab a bit on the fastener threads, needed or not. Then tighten everything up, no torque wrench, tighten the fasteners evenly in a cross hatch pattern until you see the cork ‘just start’ to compress (squeeze out). Don’t over tighten, and make sure the cover bolt holes aren’t dimpled from a previous ‘ham fisted’ mechanic over tightening…..a small ball peen works best there…tap, tap, tap…eyeball for flatness. Rinse and repeat….
About a hundred (maybe two hundred) years ago I worked for VW, I think Pterodactyls were still flying around, we used aviation Permatex on everything….except valve cover gaskets. There we used wheel bearing grease. I don’t think I’ve ever put an engine together without Aviation Permatex…..any engine, Ford, Chevy, Yota, Porsche, Briggs and Stratton….. I’ve even used it in steam plants…..pipe fitting never leak with that stuff dabbed on.
The best part is the stuff never hardens, always scraps down or cleans up with acetone….I don’t think I’ve even tried other products…maybe blue Lock Tight on critical fasteners….but that’s the exception.
About a hundred (maybe two hundred) years ago I worked for VW, I think Pterodactyls were still flying around, we used aviation Permatex on everything….except valve cover gaskets. There we used wheel bearing grease. I don’t think I’ve ever put an engine together without Aviation Permatex…..any engine, Ford, Chevy, Yota, Porsche, Briggs and Stratton….. I’ve even used it in steam plants…..pipe fitting never leak with that stuff dabbed on.
The best part is the stuff never hardens, always scraps down or cleans up with acetone….I don’t think I’ve even tried other products…maybe blue Lock Tight on critical fasteners….but that’s the exception.
love2fly
Flying the Mountains of the NW
- Thread starter
- #35
Aviation Permatex is what we used in the Army but it had a different name but I am sure it was the same stuff - that smell you cant for get.
Well today I am hopefully I will see what the verdict is on this timing cover problem and maybe it will jog my memory banks on what I may of screwed up.
I do remember pinging the holes flat around the outside of the cover but thats it.
I hope I do not have to pull the gears but as said we will see.
If I can get this all fixed I would like to get back to the PVC problem if it is a problem. I did mention that I bought a new PVC valve before all this stated making four new ones installed over the last year. I installed the newest one and let the 2F idle for about 5 minuets and gave it a good rev and saw no blue smoke. I am hoping that this new PVC valve did the trick.
This oil loss from he cover maybe 50% of the problem if not all of it. Being that the cover is covered by a large amount of misted oil.
Can anyone tell me if there is a certain amount of pressure under the timing cover that would push out a good amount (or mist) oil while driven at a high speed?
Cheers
Well today I am hopefully I will see what the verdict is on this timing cover problem and maybe it will jog my memory banks on what I may of screwed up.
I do remember pinging the holes flat around the outside of the cover but thats it.
I hope I do not have to pull the gears but as said we will see.
If I can get this all fixed I would like to get back to the PVC problem if it is a problem. I did mention that I bought a new PVC valve before all this stated making four new ones installed over the last year. I installed the newest one and let the 2F idle for about 5 minuets and gave it a good rev and saw no blue smoke. I am hoping that this new PVC valve did the trick.
This oil loss from he cover maybe 50% of the problem if not all of it. Being that the cover is covered by a large amount of misted oil.
Can anyone tell me if there is a certain amount of pressure under the timing cover that would push out a good amount (or mist) oil while driven at a high speed?
Cheers
There is a brass Oil Jet just above the crankshaft drive gear that sprays oil where the cam and crank gear mesh. It’s basically a 90 degree elbow off of main oil gallery…..with a pin hole discharge. If I remember correctly it’s threaded into the steel timing gear backing plate and ‘staked’ to prevent it from unscrewing. Ah…the days before Blue Lock-Tight (LOL)
Not sure what would happen if that fell out, I would assume you would see a drop in oil pressure along with more oil in the timing gear area that couldn’t drain back to the oil pan…e.g. more feed than bleed.
Last note, the picture I attached of the F-Engine (above) were from my 68. I took those pictures in 2018, and the engine has since been installed and in service since 2018. There is about 10k miles on here since. Here is a photo of her installed. And she uses maybe half a quart every 1000 miles or so….and for these old girls, I think that quite normal.
Not sure what would happen if that fell out, I would assume you would see a drop in oil pressure along with more oil in the timing gear area that couldn’t drain back to the oil pan…e.g. more feed than bleed.
Last note, the picture I attached of the F-Engine (above) were from my 68. I took those pictures in 2018, and the engine has since been installed and in service since 2018. There is about 10k miles on here since. Here is a photo of her installed. And she uses maybe half a quart every 1000 miles or so….and for these old girls, I think that quite normal.
When my oil squirter fell out, it made horrible grinding sounds as it spun around against the timing gears and timing cover…
You also have to be very careful (IIRC) in getting all the bolts in the right spots.
There are some bolts if installed in the wrong spot can push the plate out, causing leaks.
Rocky
You also have to be very careful (IIRC) in getting all the bolts in the right spots.
There are some bolts if installed in the wrong spot can push the plate out, causing leaks.
Rocky
So what did the timing gears look like after the squirter fell out???? Did they get ‘chunked’???
love2fly
Flying the Mountains of the NW
- Thread starter
- #39
Well the day was going good until I broke my 20+ year breaker bar doing the started bump to break loose the crank nut. Tried ratchet gun, heat, tread lube, breaker with extension tube, now I'm out of power for the day. That dang nut is on.
You guys can see the cork gasket bulging on the side, I know I did not over torque the bolts when installing, but I do have a son that uses the truck sometimes for camping/fishing so I guess old dad has to talk to son.
Cheers
You guys can see the cork gasket bulging on the side, I know I did not over torque the bolts when installing, but I do have a son that uses the truck sometimes for camping/fishing so I guess old dad has to talk to son.
Cheers
Sorry about your breaker bar….head down to Lowe’s and get yourself an electric impact, one with a cord (not battery powered), unless you have air??? And a new 1/2” breaker bar while you’re there…
