If you are going to 35s expect to need to do the KDSS relo. That said it’s not expensive and if you mount the sway bar end links on the outside of the LCA cradle they aren’t tweaked very much and should last a long time
200 Series Lift using Tundra front IFS and Icon shocks
- Thread starter TexAZ
- Start date
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-King 2.5 adjustable
-King 700lb springs
-Camburg UCA
-Craigslist OEM LCA
-OEM tie rods
-EBay OEM CV axles
-Spidertrax spacers
And the
-arb lockers front/rear
-nitro 4.88 gears
Going to be quite the transformation. Thanks to all who came before me.
bloc
SILVER Star
I can't shake being concerned about fatigue on the bolt from it being taken out of double-shear. There is a whole lot of force on that link under cornering conditions.
Either a pre-bent set of links to address the relocation misalignment, or some way to modify the bracket and keep double-shear..
I added a set of extended brake lines to my list as well. The stock ones will work temporarily, but they do get tight on droop.
I agree it's not optimal. I think the primary impact will be a slight reduction in roll control as the single shear configuration allows more flex of the link. Over time, depending on type of use, and it may be a long time, it's possible it may fatigue and snap the bolt. Fortunately a lost sway bar end link is probably not a show stopper on the trail.
Any welder can pretty easily reconfigure that bucket or add an extension bucket. Probably my preferred method if long term durability is required.
I'll let you know over time I suppose but ~8000 miles in and mine is holding up fine. I think @Willy beamin did this and has run it for a while but of course he's just one guy as well, so really just two anecdotal experiences.
With the aluminum spacer inside the LCA cradle the flanged bolt head (and washer) press directly against the inner metal sleeve of the end link, so it is held tightly in place. I used the Toyota front diff mount bolts to do this and we just cut like an inch or two off the end so they wouldn't bottom out... I had them available since I installed a DD kit a couple years back which came with longer bolts.
On the plus side if you did shear the bolt off your handling would get squirrelly until you fixed it but it's not like that bolt holds anything else important in place.
Pre-bent links would be ideal IMO (along with a KDSS relo that moves the mounting point another 1/2" or so further forward). Unfortunately nobody has made them to my knowledge. Alternately I suppose you could fab a cradle extension and weld that in place, but personally for maintenance reasons I'd prefer a readily available replacement option (like new weird angle end links) than a completely custom job (like a welded LCA)
bloc
SILVER Star
My concern with the driver side link bolt failing is the pressure in the KDSS system causing the arm to drop and possibly bind against the LCA. Cutting up that KDSS valve showed me that toyota designed in the ability for the system to balance itself slowly after the over pressure bleed valve activates, and I believe this would be a flow path from the accumulators to the KDSS cylinder to push the arm down. It may not have pulled the arm up in the above picture due to the friction in the sway bar bushings.
The good thing is the bolt is just in tension providing support to the inner bushing sleeve, so we effectively have a larger cross section to bend than just the bolt. But still not as strong as double shear. I do think until the bolt actually breaks it is a pretty stiff system though.
And I totally agree a readily replaceable part is better than a modified arm with link bucket.
But maybe this falls into the category of me over thinking things.
The good thing is the bolt is just in tension providing support to the inner bushing sleeve, so we effectively have a larger cross section to bend than just the bolt. But still not as strong as double shear. I do think until the bolt actually breaks it is a pretty stiff system though.
And I totally agree a readily replaceable part is better than a modified arm with link bucket.
But maybe this falls into the category of me over thinking things.
If you look at the variety of sway bar endlinks out there, you'll note they are almost all are universally straight. For a reason, as they would been to be built much like the KDSS bar side profile in order to translate the large forces without bending. Not likely to find a bent endlink config that will work unless built with some serious structure. I would take the single sheer mount config before that.
So what you're saying is we should be fabbing up a completely new KDSS sway bar?
bloc
SILVER Star
Simply having the lower end angled compared to the vertical shaft would get the job done, and resist the issues you bring up. Doesn’t necessarily need an actual bend in the link..
It occurred to me that someone with the engineering and fabrication skills to make a KDSS arm that optimized the available space to clear larger tires would do very well. This could avoid the need for a relocation in the first place (at least to the point the passenger side and the cylinder itself turns into an issue.) The problem is the prototypes would probably need to be made of billet ($$$) or custom forged/cast (also $$$$).So what you're saying is we should be fabbing up a completely new KDSS sway bar?
Hrmm. I would like to say that it may work but in my mind it's not just the obvious clearance and fitment problem. The projection of force at the steeper link angle with a KDSS relocation is not good. So instead of the sway bar projecting up and down force on the LCA, it's now projecting some serious fore and aft force. Likely enough to push the tire fore and aft as the sway works.
The relocation of the link to outside of the bucket mount solves that and the fitment problem. But introduces the problem you started out with which is the loss a double sheer mount.
Reworking the lower bucked on the LCA is probably only a 2-3 hours of work for anyone with a welder. I don't see the aftermarket stepping in with an alternate KDSS bar as that takes some serious manufacturing investment for what is a niche audience.
TheGrrrrr
GOLD Star
Those Nitro gears are chilling off the California coast and nobody knows when they will hit the port. I gave up and called Brandon at Revolution Gears and pick up a set that shipped same day (yesterday). I chatted with Zuk (The Gear Whisperer) about Revolution and he said they come from the same factory in South Korea as the Nitro and that he would have no hesitation putting them in. If Zuk says they are good to go, I don't know of anyone whose opinion would carry more weight. Its another option anyway. they were also a slight bit cheaper. They were out of install kits but Cruiser Outfitters had those in stock as of yesterday.
Edit: just noticed you have the install kits.
bloc
SILVER Star
I wouldn’t be qualified to do the math and yes the forces are high but keep in mind the bar only moves about an inch forward, typically. Plus it moves down some as well, which helps correct some of the geometry introduced by the lift.
This is a WAG but it seems like 30 degrees would get the job done.. and yes it would introduce some thrust into the lower bushing but with that bushing no longer being so misaligned and prone to tearing my gut is it could handle it.
As for thrust forces on the lower arm, these would be child’s play compared to what is seen during normal braking/acceleration, and suspension travel.
Basically, KDSS relocation is IMO a bandaid solution and introduces its own problems but the best we can do for now if we want to run these larger tires. You LX guys really do have an advantage here. All of this is exactly why I didn’t run 285/75.. but that may happen when I wear out the /70s. By then I’ll have 4.30s and a lot more time invested in the research of making /75s work between offset KDSS geometry.
Yeah, I'm with you. With every mod we make, comes a list of trades, and we're all trying to navigate and minimize the list of compromises. Just saying from my perspective, the single sheer is probably the compromise I would live with if I couldn't modify/weld it back to a double sheer configuration.
If we're geeking out here, a 30* angle would mean two things
- ~1/3 of what would be an up and down force would now be translated into thrust
- effectively reducing sway bar effectiveness by ~1/3
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bloc
SILVER Star
My understanding of rope anchor system which see similar geometry and force adjustments is that a 60-degree angle between two legs of an anchor system puts ~60% of the load on each leg.. so splitting that into two 30-degree legs it wouldn’t be a third of the force, more like 10%.
Also keep in mind the sway bar gets its force from the other side that will also have any offset.. so the “input” would have a roughly similar advantage as compared to a perpendicular orientation. I say roughly because during cornering by nature the links won’t be mirror image.
Good catch! For a 30* link angle, the resultant force component on the y-axis is ~86% (loss of 14%). x-axis thrust force is a not insignificant ~50%.
In regards to the input, the motion ratio on the both sides is lost, rather than compensating each other. It'll feel like a ~30% smaller sway bar.
bloc
SILVER Star
Also a good catch. And, this all doesn’t happen unless the vehicle is lifted, which already impacts CoG and roll center.
Meaning any impacts on sway bar rate are amplified.
Well after going back and forth on whether I wanted to take this on myself or shop it out, I am fully committed to attempting it myself. With such a custom application I figure the best way to be able to service/fix it when it breaks. While I'll definitely ask some questions that make it seem like that may not be a wise decision, there is really only one way to learn.
Anyways, step one of swapping the 600lb springs out for 700lbs went off nice and safely. Was only slightly frightening on the first one.
On to the Cv's. Bought them used off ebay. Figured I would refresh them with new boots/dust seals. Any reason to do more disassembly than that to inspect them? If anyone has good resources for servicing them, would love to take a look at it. Thanks!
Anyways, step one of swapping the 600lb springs out for 700lbs went off nice and safely. Was only slightly frightening on the first one.
On to the Cv's. Bought them used off ebay. Figured I would refresh them with new boots/dust seals. Any reason to do more disassembly than that to inspect them? If anyone has good resources for servicing them, would love to take a look at it. Thanks!
