1FZ trans swaps 6R80 10R80 and more (9 Viewers)

[sbman]

I knew you had worked on this, and pinged you last spring as I headed down this path. This is really good info. Are you and EE? You seem to know your stuff on the electrical side. I am an ME who works for a test and measurement company with hundreds of EE's and software engineers. I have picked up enough over the years to be dangerous. At one point I had a four channel scope hooked up to the J80 as I drove around, verifying waveforms in the stock configuration.

This would be a lot easier if Toyota had shifted a manual transmission J80 to the US. Then it would be as simple as an ECU swap and would still be OBDII compliant. @landtank had an idea about using a 1996 or 1997 Supra / SC300 manual transmission ECU for a normally aspirated 2JZ-GE 3.0 inline six. I have two of those ECU's and was going to try that route to see if I could keep OBDII functionality.

But, before that, I will look through what you have above and see if there is a way to trick the stock ECU into not throwing error codes for the stock transmission not being there. Worth a shot, and I have all of the resistors, etc, that I need in labstock here at work.

Thanks,

Mike

I have a degree in electronics, but work in computers, but I've done a lot of low level programming for microcontrollers and that goes hand in hand with circuit design and done some of that as well.

One other thing I thought of is that if the ECU does decide to exercise a shift solenoid, it may draw too much current for the ECU to handle, IF it holds the solenoid ON. I'm not clear if it just pulses the solenoids or holds them. The description in the EWD seems to indicate that if you fool it into L it will drive the #1 shift solenoid full time. With solenoids the DC resistance when released is not the same as the 'hold' resistance which can be much higher and therefore lower current. I'd put 12V from a lab supply on your old transmission's #1 shift solenoid and see how much current it draws while 'holding'. Then you can use a relay to present a 12ohm resistor when the solenoid is not engaged (so the ecu sees the correct load) and a higher resistance switches in via the relay to lower the current when it is being driven by the ECU. Could even add a delay if the relay closing isn't slow enough to fool the ECU into thinking the 'fake solenoid' had reached it's hold point. That's all assuming the ECU can monitor the current on the solenoids, but I do think it probably has that ability so it can throw codes related to solenoids.

 

[OutlawMike]

I have a degree in electronics, but work in computers, but I've done a lot of low level programming for microcontrollers and that goes hand in hand with circuit design and done some of that as well.

One other thing I thought of is that if the ECU does decide to exercise a shift solenoid, it may draw too much current for the ECU to handle, IF it holds the solenoid ON. I'm not clear if it just pulses the solenoids or holds them. The description in the EWD seems to indicate that if you fool it into L it will drive the #1 shift solenoid full time. With solenoids the DC resistance when released is not the same as the 'hold' resistance which can be much higher and therefore lower current. I'd put 12V from a lab supply on your old transmission's #1 shift solenoid and see how much current it draws while 'holding'. Then you can use a relay to present a 12ohm resistor when the solenoid is not engaged (so the ecu sees the correct load) and a higher resistance switches in via the relay to lower the current when it is being driven by the ECU. Could even add a delay if the relay closing isn't slow enough to fool the ECU into thinking the 'fake solenoid' had reached it's hold point. That's all assuming the ECU can monitor the current on the solenoids, but I do think it probably has that ability so it can throw codes related to solenoids.

Thanks,

I will get some measurements on current draw and let you know what I find. It is off road season, so, I will not be getting back to this until November time frame, as I want the rig up and running. Heading out on a NorCal trip this weekend, big loop up the coast to the Oregon border, then across to Shasta, Lassen, down to Truckee, then into the Sierra to a few lakes, then back down 80 through Sacramento and home. The first big trip on the 8 speed.

 

[Marvelicious]

I have a degree in electronics, but work in computers, but I've done a lot of low level programming for microcontrollers and that goes hand in hand with circuit design and done some of that as well.

One other thing I thought of is that if the ECU does decide to exercise a shift solenoid, it may draw too much current for the ECU to handle, IF it holds the solenoid ON. I'm not clear if it just pulses the solenoids or holds them. The description in the EWD seems to indicate that if you fool it into L it will drive the #1 shift solenoid full time. With solenoids the DC resistance when released is not the same as the 'hold' resistance which can be much higher and therefore lower current. I'd put 12V from a lab supply on your old transmission's #1 shift solenoid and see how much current it draws while 'holding'. Then you can use a relay to present a 12ohm resistor when the solenoid is not engaged (so the ecu sees the correct load) and a higher resistance switches in via the relay to lower the current when it is being driven by the ECU. Could even add a delay if the relay closing isn't slow enough to fool the ECU into thinking the 'fake solenoid' had reached it's hold point. That's all assuming the ECU can monitor the current on the solenoids, but I do think it probably has that ability so it can throw codes related to solenoids.

Just a thought: solenoids aren't exactly huge, you could just make a box with a set of solenoids in it. Seal them in there with some ATF to keep them lubed and forget about them. Kind of an inelegant solution, but it would be really easy to implement. Alternatively, you could do that temporarily as a test platform and measure all your currents from there.

 

[OutlawMike]

Just a thought: solenoids aren't exactly huge, you could just make a box with a set of solenoids in it. Seal them in there with some ATF to keep them lubed and forget about them. Kind of an inelegant solution, but it would be really easy to implement. Alternatively, you could do that temporarily as a test platform and measure all your currents from there.

I like the idea, other than having the box with ATF in it. That is going to get out at some point and cause a mess. I am going to do some testing with the solenoids to see what the current draw is. I will also experiment with the power resistors. The resistors would be a bit cleaner and more compact.

 

[OutlawMike]

MAP Sensor

The TurboLamik TCU requires a MAP sensor input. There is a wire bundle in the harness that is labeled for the MAP sensor. It has power, ground, and the signal wire, no connector, just the wires. You need to add a pigtail to the end.

The sensor I used is a Bosch 261230119. This sensor is one of the recommended sensors by TurboLamik and has a bolt hole in one end, which is better than some of the others that are designed to plug into a hole in the manifold.

I purchased the pigtail for it on Amazon, link below. The wire bundle on the TCU harness was not long enough to reach to the sensor, so, I extended the wires on the pigtail with similar colored wires as to what was on the harness and twisted them into a bundle with my cordless drill. They met up under the steering wheel.

MAP Pigtail on Amazon

I mounted it on the firewall, drivers side, on the little ledge next to the brake booster. My boost sensor is in the same area, as well as the boost reference hose that runs to the wastegate for my turbo. I also pull a boost reference from this area for the methanol injection controller, so, lots of places to T into a boost reference.

Getting crowded in this corner with all of the boost references running around. The custom fitting on the manifold is from Wit's End (RIP) and came with the turbo kit. The sensor in the end of the manifold is my IAT sensor for my 14 in 1 gage kit. The device screwed to the firewall with the knob on it is a Boost T for modifying the boost reference to the wastegate so I can increase or decrease boost without swapping springs in the wastegate.

 

[Marvelicious]

I like the idea, other than having the box with ATF in it. That is going to get out at some point and cause a mess. I am going to do some testing with the solenoids to see what the current draw is. I will also experiment with the power resistors. The resistors would be a bit cleaner and more compact.

As for the box, I come from a metal fab background, so the box in my head was stainless and included bulkhead connectors for the electrics. The more I think about it though, the more it makes sense to just build a test platform.

My gut instinct says the trans is pretty low tech and it won't take much more than a few high wattage wirewound resistors as dummy loads and it gets its feedback in other ways, but that's entirely a guess. At most I'd expect a handful of extra components in a little extruded aluminum enclosure that doubles as a heat sink.

 

[OutlawMike]

Starter Relay

I posted a few weeks back about the starter relay. I did not like that large relay, it was very loud, and, the way I had it wired, it engaged every time the transmission was put into park or neutral. So, I scrapped that relay and came up with a different main relay that is combined with a micro relay so that the main relay only engages when it has both a P/N signal from the TurboLamik (Pin #56 on TCU Harness, 3A - 12V) and an ignition start signal from the ignition key.

Relay circuit:

With these two relays, both the ground and power to the relay coil are controlled. The TCU controls the +12V P/N signal and the ground side is controlled by a micro relay that is triggered by the ignition start signal coming in on the B-W wire that normally goes to the shift indicator position switch on the side of the transmission. Only when both of these signals are present does the main relay trigger and send power to the starter. This works very well, with maybe a fraction of a second delay from turning the switch to the starter motor turning. Also, the Bosch main relay (0332002156) is very quiet, no loud clacking sound any more.

In my earlier post I showed how I disassembled a cracked shift position switch to create a connector that would plug into the stock harness. Well, as I installed the rest of the TCU signals, I ended up cutting the stock plug off of the harness and running all of the wires from that harness. I will cover what I did with the smaller wires in a follow on post, but for the starter circuit, I ran Pin #4 and Pin #5, the B-W and B-R wires to the main starter relay.

I mounted the starter in the same location as the previous relay, on the firewall, next to the windshield wiper motor. I got lucky, and the hole centers are the same, so, the nut certs I put in the firewall worked for the new relay also. The micro relay is buried under the heat shielding on the main engine harness. I picked up ground from one of the ground points on the passenger side fender well. I got both relays off Amazon.

Bosch Main Relay

Note: The Main Relay has a diode in it that minimizes arcing when it is triggered. The diode requires the 12V input to the coil be on a particular side, the ground on the other. If it does not trigger for you, then switch the power and ground.

Bosch Micro Relay

If either relay fails in the field, you can remove the two large wires from the main relay, screw them together, and then it will start when the key is turned, regardless of what gear you are in. Just make sure you are in Park or Neutral.

 

[60 toy ota]

I looked into fooling the ECU into thinking the stock transmission was in place, even though it is no longer there. The best I came up with was to put fake inputs to the ECU to think the trans was there and in Neutral or Low. To do this I think you need:

• 12 Ohm, 20 watt Power resistors to ground on ECU pins 8, 9 and 10 in place of the shift solenoids. I doubt the ECU will do more than verify the resistance since it will believe the trans is in P the whole time, but if it sends a signal to any of them, they will get warm.
• A resistor on ECU Pin 12 to simulate the A/T fluid temp sensor. Not sure of the value, but something that indicates 'warm'
• Grounding of ECU Pins 15, 16, 17 (Low, 2, R) to indicate that the trans is not in Low, 2 or R.
• GND on pin 21 TFN, vehicle is in 'Neutral' (+12 if you want it in 'Park')
• Ground ECU pin 19 (OD) to indicate Overdrive lockout
• Ground ECU pin 9 L4 (low range selected) to indicate low range not selected

I think that should be enough to get it to think the trans is present and in neutral. What I didn't know is if the ECU has different modes when the transmission is in various gears or if the fuel, throttle and timing maps would be the same in Neutral vs a gear.

I never followed through with the work because I was going to swap a 5 speed manual trans in, but decided not to. A modern automatic sounds a lot better. There is no specific input for park to the ECU it does not seem to really differentiate between Neutral and Park. You could also try putting power to pin 17 "Low", and ground to pin 21 'TFN' to make it think it is in 'Low' and it may or may not throw codes in that position, but if the fuel/throttle/timing maps are different in gear, I think 'L' would be the least likely to throw a code, I think trying it out would be the only way to know, it all depends on how much logic is in the ECU comparing speed sensors and gear selection/etc... It may try to shift up from L when you exceed a certain RPM or vehicle speed even with L selected, don't know.

I don't know if the mapping is different comparing in gear to not, but I do know that if the temp sensor is too cold it'll keep you out of overdrive. Just something to think about.

 

[cILx]

I looked into fooling the ECU into thinking the stock transmission was in place, even though it is no longer there. The best I came up with was to put fake inputs to the ECU to think the trans was there and in Neutral or Low. To do this I think you need:

• 12 Ohm, 20 watt Power resistors to ground on ECU pins 8, 9 and 10 in place of the shift solenoids. I doubt the ECU will do more than verify the resistance since it will believe the trans is in P the whole time, but if it sends a signal to any of them, they will get warm.
• A resistor on ECU Pin 12 to simulate the A/T fluid temp sensor. Not sure of the value, but something that indicates 'warm'
• Grounding of ECU Pins 15, 16, 17 (Low, 2, R) to indicate that the trans is not in Low, 2 or R.
• GND on pin 21 TFN, vehicle is in 'Neutral' (+12 if you want it in 'Park')
• Ground ECU pin 19 (OD) to indicate Overdrive lockout
• Ground ECU pin 9 L4 (low range selected) to indicate low range not selected

I think that should be enough to get it to think the trans is present and in neutral. What I didn't know is if the ECU has different modes when the transmission is in various gears or if the fuel, throttle and timing maps would be the same in Neutral vs a gear.

I never followed through with the work because I was going to swap a 5 speed manual trans in, but decided not to. A modern automatic sounds a lot better. There is no specific input for park to the ECU it does not seem to really differentiate between Neutral and Park. You could also try putting power to pin 17 "Low", and ground to pin 21 'TFN' to make it think it is in 'Low' and it may or may not throw codes in that position, but if the fuel/throttle/timing maps are different in gear, I think 'L' would be the least likely to throw a code, I think trying it out would be the only way to know, it all depends on how much logic is in the ECU comparing speed sensors and gear selection/etc... It may try to shift up from L when you exceed a certain RPM or vehicle speed even with L selected, don't know.

You are probably on to something.
There is a product called ATEMU by all4swap that probably does all that.
ATEMU - all4swap - https://all4swap.ru/product/atemu (yes, it is a .ru but looks like he is based in the UK now)

 

[OutlawMike]

You are probably on to something.
There is a product called ATEMU by all4swap that probably does all that.
ATEMU - all4swap - https://all4swap.ru/product/atemu (yes, it is a .ru but looks like he is based in the UK now)

I have looked at that module before, but not sure if it will solve the issue with the 1FZ-FE.

The major goal of that module is to get engine performance back, but, the 1FZ-FE computer does not put the engine into limp home mode when the factory transmission is not there. I do not see any difference or performance loss with the engine. I get the below codes related to the transmission:

P0710 Transmission Fluid Temperature
P0753 Shift Solenoid A
P0758 Shift Solenoid B
P0773 Shift Solenoid E or F
P1780 P/N Position Switch Malfunction

There is a comment in their "manual":

They do mention this is intended for 1998 and newer Toyota vehicles.

It is off road season right now and I have been taking the LC on trips. I will be looking at figuring out the ECU CEL codes after the snow starts to fall in the Sierra.

Too many good trails to try the 8 speed on to mess with it right now.

We have taken the LC on several trips now. Longest was four days, three nights up the coast from Santa Rosa to the Lost Coast, north of Fort Bragg. Overnight at Usal Beach, the up through Petrolia and into Ferndale, then up 101 to the Lagoons are of norther Humboldt County. Stayed a night in an RV park there, took showers, did some laundry, then over the hill to the Klamath river basin and up the Klamath basin over to I5, then up Mount Shasta to a dispersed camping area there. Next day around the southern end of Shasta, out by Lassen, then down the east side of the Sierra out by Susanville. Cut into Sawmill lake from the east side, north of I80. I recommend Sawmill Lake to everyone. Takes 4x4 to get in, which eliminates a bunch of the public. You can get in in a stock Taco and I see a full size rigs in there. Most wonderful lake I have found to off road into and it has a hidden waterfall on the south side if you have a kayak or stand up paddle board. Next day, back out to I80 and then down the hill to Sacramento and home.

The new transmission is everything I hoped for. Combined with the turbo kit, the rig just climbs hills wonderfully on pavement, always able to find a good gear. Offroad, the 4.7:1 first gear shines when crawling with the 3.1:1 transfer case gearing. It was a lot of work, and cost a pretty penny, but works really well.

Mike

 

[Douglas S]

8 Speed Conversion – Wink4x4

wink4x4.com

Seemingly a bolt-in option now available for factory diesel trucks.

 

[880 development]

8 Speed Conversion – Wink4x4

wink4x4.com

Seemingly a bolt-in option now available for factory diesel trucks.

Thats a kit for the HDJ100. An early client of this adater kit just told me that the transfer case input shaft has a different spline pattern when compared to the 80 series transfer case, even though the A442f and Hf2A are shared between both platforms. Maybe someone can shed some light on this.

By the way, I´ve developed a pre-production 8HP70 adapter kit for the HDJ80, in case someone is interested in participating in a smal pre-production run. My kit is baed on the Land Rover 8HP70 instead of the BMW N57/B57 8HP70.

 

[Douglas S]

Thats a kit for the HDJ100. An early client of this adater kit just told me that the transfer case input shaft has a different spline pattern when compared to the 80 series transfer case, even though the A442f and Hf2A are shared between both platforms. Maybe someone can shed some light on this.

At first glance that doesn't track. The 100-Series HF2A bolts up and works in 80-series HF2A applications.

 

[880 development]

At first glance that doesn't track. The 100-Series HF2A bolts up and works in 80-series HF2A applications.

Exactaly, that´s what I think... but this guy seemed pretty convinced that the shafts were different...

 

[s13koop]

8 Speed Conversion – Wink4x4

wink4x4.com

Seemingly a bolt-in option now available for factory diesel trucks.

I need it!!

 

[Douglas S]

By the way, I´ve developed a pre-production 8HP70 adapter kit for the HDJ80, in case someone is interested in participating in a smal pre-production run. My kit is baed on the Land Rover 8HP70 instead of the BMW N57/B57 8HP70.

I'm not a buyer (yet) but if you have install pics or any information on the kit I'm sure myself and others would like to see it.

 

[880 development]

I´ll post instal picsl in a months time. I haven´t been able to install everything in the car yet due to delays and issues in the electronics side of the proyect, which have been mostly solved by now.

 

[gnx7]

I have looked at that module before, but not sure if it will solve the issue with the 1FZ-FE.

The major goal of that module is to get engine performance back, but, the 1FZ-FE computer does not put the engine into limp home mode when the factory transmission is not there. I do not see any difference or performance loss with the engine. I get the below codes related to the transmission:

P0710 Transmission Fluid Temperature
P0753 Shift Solenoid A
P0758 Shift Solenoid B
P0773 Shift Solenoid E or F
P1780 P/N Position Switch Malfunction

There is a comment in their "manual":

View attachment 3684689
View attachment 3684691

They do mention this is intended for 1998 and newer Toyota vehicles.

It is off road season right now and I have been taking the LC on trips. I will be looking at figuring out the ECU CEL codes after the snow starts to fall in the Sierra.

Too many good trails to try the 8 speed on to mess with it right now.

We have taken the LC on several trips now. Longest was four days, three nights up the coast from Santa Rosa to the Lost Coast, north of Fort Bragg. Overnight at Usal Beach, the up through Petrolia and into Ferndale, then up 101 to the Lagoons are of norther Humboldt County. Stayed a night in an RV park there, took showers, did some laundry, then over the hill to the Klamath river basin and up the Klamath basin over to I5, then up Mount Shasta to a dispersed camping area there. Next day around the southern end of Shasta, out by Lassen, then down the east side of the Sierra out by Susanville. Cut into Sawmill lake from the east side, north of I80. I recommend Sawmill Lake to everyone. Takes 4x4 to get in, which eliminates a bunch of the public. You can get in in a stock Taco and I see a full size rigs in there. Most wonderful lake I have found to off road into and it has a hidden waterfall on the south side if you have a kayak or stand up paddle board. Next day, back out to I80 and then down the hill to Sacramento and home.

The new transmission is everything I hoped for. Combined with the turbo kit, the rig just climbs hills wonderfully on pavement, always able to find a good gear. Offroad, the 4.7:1 first gear shines when crawling with the 3.1:1 transfer case gearing. It was a lot of work, and cost a pretty penny, but works really well.

Mike

I just spent some time reading the 8HP swap from the beginning! Congrats on sticking with it in a relatively short amount of time and making it actually work albeit with some minor pitfalls for being an innovator on it. I live in SF and was excited to see that you are in Santa Rosa. I have '95 LC, supercharged, 4.88's, 35's, armor etc so we are "similar" setups. Back in 2009 I had a GT35R turbo setup on my '97 LX450 with only 6psi but it definitely was spicy enough.

I was trying to PM you... but your inbox is full. I'm guessing you are flooded from this post hahaha. I would love a ride/check out your truck one day when it is a little more dialed in.

Did you ever do a fuel economy loop test with the new setup? I was curious how it had improved.

 

[JoeCova]

So do we have a complete parts list needed for this?

Curious how this would work with the OBD1 rigs with a separate TCU

 

[OutlawMike]

So do we have a complete parts list needed for this?

Curious how this would work with the OBD1 rigs with a separate TCU

Hi Joe,

I have a partial list in this thread on page 5, post #82, with some pricing. That is missing a bunch of the little stuff that is needed to complete the swap. I will put together a spreadsheet to document the parts that need to be purchased, the J80 parts that need to be modified, and the parts that need to be fabricated.

Mike