You beat me to it! Lol
Builds 17 200 series super charger/ build (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Briano
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- Thread starter
- #82
I’ll get it out for a drive/ video later today!
Thanks for posting this. New goals for my 2017 LC.
Moby
GOLD Star
Great to see this moving forward. I have a deposit on a Heritage and it will be hard not to go this route if it works out. Although HPTuners does not list 2020 as supported.
What will you be doing to verify air/fuel ratio? When I built my bored over, cam'd and ported 2FE I installed a wideband o2 so that I could compare before and after. And the same when I ditched the stock AFM and went to a programmable MAF to fine tune for the displacement increase.
What will you be doing to verify air/fuel ratio? When I built my bored over, cam'd and ported 2FE I installed a wideband o2 so that I could compare before and after. And the same when I ditched the stock AFM and went to a programmable MAF to fine tune for the displacement increase.
bloc
SILVER Star
With such limited tuning options I’d be monitoring EGT too.
- Thread starter
- #86
Honestly the ECUs are very sophisticated on the new vehicles, if fuel trim parameters are not in the tight tolerance allowed the ECU will trip a code! I have monitored my fuel ratios with the scanner hooked up and everything looked very good, but for the over cautious you can add any external gauges you want, the whole purpose behind why harrop designed this kit with the slight fuel mods and no tuning is because of the lack of tuning available for some years, though HP is making some huge progress in that department!
- Thread starter
- #87
We are not talking about a turbo diesel here.... I think proper fuel ratios are extremely important, and if you are running correct fuel trims, EGTs will never be a concern, and if your going that route where do you stop, should you probe each cylinder? I fly a Cessna 205 and have a sophisticated engine monitor that does probe each cylinder, sole purpose of that is I don’t have an ECU to monitor and adjust my fuel trims and notify me when an issue arises, I am the ECU, I adjust fuel trims on the fly, and I watch my EGTs extremely closely, I want to know if one of my cylinders is doing something funny, but as I said I am the ECU for my Cessna, in your Landcruiser you have an ECU that does all of the thinking for you, and trust me it’s a lot quicker than you will ever be at notifying yourself of an issue!
bloc
SILVER Star
The ECU has the hardware needed to adjust fueling to keep stoichiometric AFR in range but doesn’t have wide-band to optimize mixture under WOT, let alone the different AFR needed for forced induction. In stock config having stoich correct will mean WOT is probably also correct (usually pretty rich), due to the thousands of hours of tuning toyota does when developing these engines. All of this assumes stock everything.
It does not have the inherent ability to optimize spark tables for forced induction, it can only pull timing as a response to knock. NA tables are NOT appropriate for FI, though this larger blower and presumably lower intake temps than magnussen for a given manifold pressure will help. Correct spark maps can be done with HPTuners (or so I’d assume, based on using that to tune some GM products) but a fuel pressure adjustment is far from the right way to do this.
It not knocking is a good sign, but without tuning via wideband and even better EGT, this setup is far from its potential. For the record I include long-term reliability in “potential”. EGTs are useful for far more than turbo diesel, especially when the stock ECU doesn’t have the necessary hardware to run a forced induction setup. In that case more feedback is a good thing. As for where to place bungs and how many, that’s a decision for the owner.
I really like that someone is working on this, I just hope tuning gets properly addressed, and we move past what is effectively band-aid tuning.
It does not have the inherent ability to optimize spark tables for forced induction, it can only pull timing as a response to knock. NA tables are NOT appropriate for FI, though this larger blower and presumably lower intake temps than magnussen for a given manifold pressure will help. Correct spark maps can be done with HPTuners (or so I’d assume, based on using that to tune some GM products) but a fuel pressure adjustment is far from the right way to do this.
It not knocking is a good sign, but without tuning via wideband and even better EGT, this setup is far from its potential. For the record I include long-term reliability in “potential”. EGTs are useful for far more than turbo diesel, especially when the stock ECU doesn’t have the necessary hardware to run a forced induction setup. In that case more feedback is a good thing. As for where to place bungs and how many, that’s a decision for the owner.
I really like that someone is working on this, I just hope tuning gets properly addressed, and we move past what is effectively band-aid tuning.
- Thread starter
- #89
I'm not trying to get into a pissing match with anyone... So I'll make a few more statements and leave it at that!
1. I 100% agree tuning would optimize performance, in a lot of cases tuning a stock vehicle with no mods will optimize performance!
2. If parameters where off the charts the ECU would be freaking out and tripping codes! The reason the stage 1 is limited to 6.5lbs of boost, is because more boost would create those issues with no tuning!
3. As of yet I have only seen 1 negative review you or someone posted, that particular review the guy took it to a shop that wasn't capable of fabing up a couple brackets for the radiator, the guy got his panties in a bunch and threw in the towel... My personal opinion, that shop might want to stick to brake jobs and oil changes!
4. Harrop has been designing supercharger kits for a lot of vehicles for a long time, I am very confident their engineers are smarter than you or me, and if they were in the business of blowing up motors, I don't believe they would be in business, and would probably have a lot of publicly known law suits
5. Wits End put together a turbo kit for 80 series land cruisers last year, there is no tuning capabilities on a 90s ECU, the choices are standalone or stock ECU.... Aside from a colder spark plug, no other mods are made to bolt on a turbo pushing 7lbs of boost! I personally was one of the first to install this kit, it was tested thoroughly prior to release, currently a lot of 80 series running this kit with zero complaints, issues, or concerns! So you are telling me technology has gone so far backwards in the past 20 years that a stock ECU in 1997 can handle 7lbs of boost, yet a new land cruiser can't handle 6.5psi? Seems logical!
Basically I am saying tuning would optimize performance! But for those of us wanting more power now and have no options for tuning, this is an incredible option, that is very safe reliable power! I've been doing this for a long time, had lots of fun and smiles modifying mine and customers vehicles and I have yet to blow up a motor on any vehicle I have modified!
- Thread starter
- #91
Yea I had one of those to back in the day, once again no tuning
. Honestly this kit is not difficult to install, but not 100% bolt in either, that is one thing I think harrop could do better on, not a deal breaker, but could def use improvement!
bloc
SILVER Star
I’m not really sure how 80-series turbo kits are relevant, but since they came up the 1FZ-FE compression ratio is 9:1 and a 3UR-FE is 10.2:1. Pretty obvious which is better for FI and more tolerant of poor tuning. Let alone ease and legality of a stand-alone tuning solution.
I’m also not looking to get into a pissing match, I hope this works out for you, I just have reasons to disagree with the “no tuning required” statement, frequent this forum, and know these engines are very expensive.
FYI if you are offering install of these on this board you should probably consider registering as a vendor.
I’m also not looking to get into a pissing match, I hope this works out for you, I just have reasons to disagree with the “no tuning required” statement, frequent this forum, and know these engines are very expensive.
FYI if you are offering install of these on this board you should probably consider registering as a vendor.
You know what they say about opinions..
Your assertion is quite simply factually inaccurate, on several fronts.
One of the aspects of the shop that attempted the work is fabbing custom tear drop trailers. To say the problem was that they can’t make brackets and don’t know what they’re doing is just stupid and ignorant.
The intercooler did not and could not fit. Harrop didn’t know that though, despite selling it as bolt on ready for the 2018LX, because they’d never actually installed one on a US spec vehicle. Never tested on this ECU either. Period.
Then they send a replacement, that was actually the wrong replacement.
Then the correct intercooler that they did send was half the size of the original. So was the original simply overkill? Was this new solution all that was really needed?
Who knows! Because this new solution had never actually been tested in this combo either! Lucky me to be the guinea pig!
After several weeks having the truck apart and taking up a bay, and it becoming clear that Harrop really had never actually tested either of the recomemded and sold setups before, and based on their pretty poor service, I decided I wasn’t willing to trust them to reimburse me to replace my motor, under a warranty claim, should the need arise.
I sincerely hope you never need to go that route either.
- Thread starter
- #94
Again not trying to turn this into a pissing match, we have all read your thread and all seen your complaints! My rep has been nothing but great to work with, and you can fit just about any radiator behind these grills, there is a crazy amount of space! But I agree it is not bolt in, one of the first statements I made, and please do not repeat your thread on mine, it is linked on a previous post if anyone would like to read the one and only complaint that has been brought to my attention, no need to repeat it here again
so about 7sec 0-60?
- Thread starter
- #97
I didn’t time it, but that sounds about right, for a heavy AWD suv on 34s and at 8,000ft, I think it moves extremely quick!
This is promising! Glad to see someone chasing and installing boost to a 200-series.
As a previous installer and tuner of forced induction on IS300s and GS300/400s...
This passive fueling and tuning strategy isn't unheard of in the aftermarket. While not my preference, it may work with low boost.
1) Looks like the stock MAF is in place. These generally have a bit of overhead to meter some boost to match with fuel and pull timing. At 8,000ft, this wouldn't be a great test as oxygen is something like 25% less. Sea level and a cold crisp day would be the real test to know if there's sufficient metering overhead for the stock ECU to self compensate.
2) Fuel pressure regulator - I assume the modification is a rising rate regulator, to match more fuel with boost. It's an old school analog way to increase fueling but it is one that can work with some tweaking and blending between MAF metering bandwidth to FPR fueling. It's not ideal as the stock ECU will constantly be doing instantaneous short term feedback loop corrections for finer correction. It may be that what's adjusted for 8,000 ft, may need tweaking for sea level.
3) Timing - the stock ECU will constantly be adjusting to ride the knock line. Again, 8,000ft is a poor test of this as with less oxygen, the cylinders are no where near their peak volumetric efficiency that would test knock thresholds. It would be interesting to know how it operates at lower elevations. I would highly recommend to fill with the highest octane one can get. It's no longer an 87 octane compatible vehicle. Preferrably 93. Fueling with lower octane could be disastrous.
4) Stock fuel AFR targets are not necessary incompatible with boost. OEM tuning tends to be safe and rich, sometimes going well into the 10 AFRs in load. Which is where one wants to be with boost. Just watch the ST/LT fuel trims the ECU is reporting. Wideband and EGT sensors are not really necessary as those are more useful when trying to optimizing timing and fueling. Rather than just knowing things are safe. The stock ECU will throw CELs and safe mode well before those types of conditions...if it catches things in time.
I haven't looked at what tuning devices or piggybacks are available in the market today. Anyone have leads to what's commonly used today? Is the Toyota ECU encryption cracked yet?
As a previous installer and tuner of forced induction on IS300s and GS300/400s...
This passive fueling and tuning strategy isn't unheard of in the aftermarket. While not my preference, it may work with low boost.
1) Looks like the stock MAF is in place. These generally have a bit of overhead to meter some boost to match with fuel and pull timing. At 8,000ft, this wouldn't be a great test as oxygen is something like 25% less. Sea level and a cold crisp day would be the real test to know if there's sufficient metering overhead for the stock ECU to self compensate.
2) Fuel pressure regulator - I assume the modification is a rising rate regulator, to match more fuel with boost. It's an old school analog way to increase fueling but it is one that can work with some tweaking and blending between MAF metering bandwidth to FPR fueling. It's not ideal as the stock ECU will constantly be doing instantaneous short term feedback loop corrections for finer correction. It may be that what's adjusted for 8,000 ft, may need tweaking for sea level.
3) Timing - the stock ECU will constantly be adjusting to ride the knock line. Again, 8,000ft is a poor test of this as with less oxygen, the cylinders are no where near their peak volumetric efficiency that would test knock thresholds. It would be interesting to know how it operates at lower elevations. I would highly recommend to fill with the highest octane one can get. It's no longer an 87 octane compatible vehicle. Preferrably 93. Fueling with lower octane could be disastrous.
4) Stock fuel AFR targets are not necessary incompatible with boost. OEM tuning tends to be safe and rich, sometimes going well into the 10 AFRs in load. Which is where one wants to be with boost. Just watch the ST/LT fuel trims the ECU is reporting. Wideband and EGT sensors are not really necessary as those are more useful when trying to optimizing timing and fueling. Rather than just knowing things are safe. The stock ECU will throw CELs and safe mode well before those types of conditions...if it catches things in time.
I haven't looked at what tuning devices or piggybacks are available in the market today. Anyone have leads to what's commonly used today? Is the Toyota ECU encryption cracked yet?
- Thread starter
- #99
I agree with just about everything you are saying here! And most definitely need to run the highest octane possible, I guess I never made that clear previously.
HP has cracked encryption up to 2016, and is in the works on the newer models, another option I have heard of but have no personal experience with is OV tune, edwardg is currently working on a harrop instal with OV tune, I’m very anxious to see how that all works out!
As far as cold crisp mornings go, today’s video was at temps near 0, my wife will be driving down to 4K ft this weekend, I don’t anticipate issues, harrop has tested this setup at sea level, but I will keep all informed, her trip will be approximately 500 miles round trip over a few mountain passes!
afgman786
SILVER Star
Stock 0-60 is under 7sec on 200s..
