Builds Another Prado in Montana (2 Viewers)

[Gun Runner 5]

Great little cars the Mk4 as long as you get the 5spd. Drove one for years and tons of reliable miles.

Of course they all suffer from 1 major flaw:

Engineering: we made the door locks sir, simple, they work and can easily be fixed.

VW: We aren’t Toyota, make it complicated.

Engineering: ok…we’ve added more levers sir.

VW: still not enough. Add vacuum lines to the door locks, more levers, make it very hard to work on and so that it fails in the cold.

Engineering: say less.

View attachment 3546791


Insert almost every VW body part/electrical part into that conversation. They are really good about taking something simple and complicating it needlessly the engines…great!

I once owned a 1998 VW diesel Beetle (If I remember correctly the ‘98 was the first year of the “new“ Beetle). The engine and 5 speed manual transmission was fantastic. The electrical system on the other hand was a nightmare. The “smart key” was designed to lock the doors if you stuck it in the lock and temporarily bumped it clockwise however every other time it would let down one or more windows and not lock either doors. I thought Land Rover had a monopoly on crappy electronics but I was wrong.

 

[Rigster]

Great little cars the Mk4 as long as you get the 5spd. Drove one for years and tons of reliable miles.

Of course they all suffer from 1 major flaw:

Engineering: we made the door locks sir, simple, they work and can easily be fixed.

VW: We aren’t Toyota, make it complicated.

Engineering: ok…we’ve added more levers sir.

VW: still not enough. Add vacuum lines to the door locks, more levers, make it very hard to work on and so that it fails in the cold.

Engineering: say less.

View attachment 3546791


Insert almost every VW body part/electrical part into that conversation. They are really good about taking something simple and complicating it needlessly the engines…great!

LOL - This is so true.

I have a German Engineer friend who migrated to Canada over 20 years ago, this was his advice on the newer VW's:

Don't go near them. They are WAY OVER ENGINEERED!!! He is ok with the older TDI's.

I can full-heartedly agree with him. I had one VW TSi later model with turbo and supercharger and it is a nightmare of computers, sensors and plasticky failure points. Near impossible to troubleshoot - it IS possible, just an incredibly long procedure, testing multiple sensors and wiring.... etc.

As far as transmissions go... people tend to give the auto's a bad rap, but they are not too bad. I fixed my wife's MKIV by replacing all the solenoids. VW wanted $4000 to fix. I did it for $300. The MKV 6 speed auto is a work of art. What a great improvement. However, their weak point is the dual mass flywheel. Mine makes noise while it is warming up, but goes away as soon as you put it in gear. Common consensus is keep driving until it starts to get unbalanced. One forum poster said he has been driving for 100,000 miles on his noisy DMF and still going.

Currently getting an average of 50mpg with my 06 MKV BRM with 6 speed auto, but I am just starting to work out the deficiencies on this vehicle.

 

[AirheadNut]

Great little cars the Mk4 as long as you get the 5spd. Drove one for years and tons of reliable miles.

Of course they all suffer from 1 major flaw:

Engineering: we made the door locks sir, simple, they work and can easily be fixed.

VW: We aren’t Toyota, make it complicated.

Engineering: ok…we’ve added more levers sir.

VW: still not enough. Add vacuum lines to the door locks, more levers, make it very hard to work on and so that it fails in the cold.

Engineering: say less.

View attachment 3546791


Insert almost every VW body part/electrical part into that conversation. They are really good about taking something simple and complicating it needlessly the engines…great!

Have to agree in the context of door handles, latches locks and windows. My 1984 VW Quantum had non-working central vacuum locks and intermittent power windows. Both my MK3 Jettas had working vacuum locking, but the door latches would fail in cold weather and not latch the door closed once opened. My brother has owned two B4 Passat TDI’s, both had broken door handles. Of the four MK4 Jettas we’ve had in the family they have all been pretty solid from an electrical standpoint, except that they all have a tendency to lock themselves randomly, sometimes with the key still inside. As far as I’m concerned there is still nothing on the market that can compete with the MK4 TDI in terms of cost per mile to own long term.

 

[AirheadNut]

I once owned a 1998 VW diesel Beetle (If I remember correctly the ‘98 was the first year of the “new“ Beetle). The engine and 5 speed manual transmission was fantastic. The electrical system on the other hand was a nightmare. The “smart key” was designed to lock the doors if you stuck it in the lock and temporarily bumped it clockwise however every other time it would let down one or more windows and not lock either doors. I thought Land Rover had a monopoly on crappy electronics but I was wrong.

The driver’s door module is a common failure point on the MK4 platform. It controls the door locks, courtesy lights and rolling up or down of all the windows using the key. All kinds of odd things can happen when it starts to fail.

 

[AirheadNut]

LOL - This is so true.

I have a German Engineer friend who migrated to Canada over 20 years ago, this was his advice on the newer VW's:

Don't go near them. They are WAY OVER ENGINEERED!!! He is ok with the older TDI's.

I can full-heartedly agree with him. I had one VW TSi later model with turbo and supercharger and it is a nightmare of computers, sensors and plasticky failure points. Near impossible to troubleshoot - it IS possible, just an incredibly long procedure, testing multiple sensors and wiring.... etc.

As far as transmissions go... people tend to give the auto's a bad rap, but they are not too bad. I fixed my wife's MKIV by replacing all the solenoids. VW wanted $4000 to fix. I did it for $300. The MKV 6 speed auto is a work of art. What a great improvement. However, their weak point is the dual mass flywheel. Mine makes noise while it is warming up, but goes away as soon as you put it in gear. Common consensus is keep driving until it starts to get unbalanced. One forum poster said he has been driving for 100,000 miles on his noisy DMF and still going.

Currently getting an average of 50mpg with my 06 MKV BRM with 6 speed auto, but I am just starting to work out the deficiencies on this vehicle.

I keep seeing newer TDI’s for sale and think that it would be nice to pick one up, then I go read about CP4 failures, DPF issues, EGR problems and it cures me of wanting one for another few months! There’s a 2006 MK5 for sale near me for a decent price, but it is an automatic and I am really keen on that. I’m much more familiar with the MK3 and MK4 platforms, too. The MK4 is really the pinnacle of reliability and efficiency and still has decent creature comforts and is nice to drive.

 

[Rigster]

I keep seeing newer TDI’s for sale and think that it would be nice to pick one up, then I go read about CP4 failures, DPF issues, EGR problems and it cures me of wanting one for another few months! There’s a 2006 MK5 for sale near me for a decent price, but it is an automatic and I am really keen on that. I’m much more familiar with the MK3 and MK4 platforms, too. The MK4 is really the pinnacle of reliability and efficiency and still has decent creature comforts and is nice to drive.

Agreed, my oldest and my wife still own and drive the MKIV TDI's. I feel like they seem more solid. A little tighter.

The plus on the MKV is it is quicker. I assume this is because it is a little lighter, and the 6 speed auto is a sportier transmission so the shifts are quicker and smoother. It is also a larger vehicle overall, so better for tall people, passengers.

I would at least check out the MKV and drive it to see what you think. The one I have was in pretty poor condition - needs brakes, rear suspension work, rust repair (mostly rockers). I already ordered all the parts for a full brake job(rotors/pads) front and rear and complete suspension replacement front and rear for about $500, just waiting for them to come in.

 

[FJBen]

Have to agree in the context of door handles, latches locks and windows. My 1984 VW Quantum had non-working central vacuum locks and intermittent power windows. Both my MK3 Jettas had working vacuum locking, but the door latches would fail in cold weather and not latch the door closed once opened. My brother has owned two B4 Passat TDI’s, both had broken door handles. Of the four MK4 Jettas we’ve had in the family they have all been pretty solid from an electrical standpoint, except that they all have a tendency to lock themselves randomly, sometimes with the key still inside. As far as I’m concerned there is still nothing on the market that can compete with the MK4 TDI in terms of cost per mile to own long term.

My mk4 did that a few times. Locked me out, drove me nuts and made me think I was losing my marbles.
Yeah my mk3 lets you open handle once then it’s done and you are locked in/out til it’s warmer lol. I’ve hopefully fixed the one door.

Manual windows/mirrors/seats make it a bit less complicated than the mk4, but not near as comfortable or the drive quality. 14” tires are stupid cheap. Sadly decent mk4 are hard to find so I’ll stick with my 270k miles $1000 mk3. 48mpg is nice even if I have to dukes of hazard it.

 

[AirheadNut]

My mk4 did that a few times. Locked me out, drove me nuts and made me think I was losing my marbles.
Yeah my mk3 lets you open handle once then it’s done and you are locked in/out til it’s warmer lol. I’ve hopefully fixed the one door.

Manual windows/mirrors/seats make it a bit less complicated than the mk4, but not near as comfortable or the drive quality. 14” tires are stupid cheap. Sadly decent mk4 are hard to find so I’ll stick with my 270k miles $1000 mk3. 48mpg is nice even if I have to dukes of hazard it.

My experience with MK3 door latches was the opposite. Once I opened the door it would no longer latch closed until it warmed up. Standard procedure for me was to string out an extension cord and hit the latch mechanism with a heat gun for a few minutes until it thawed out enough to latch again, then hope it stayed warm enough to still work when I got to my destination. Made me late to a college class once when I had to spend several minutes blowing into the latch to get the door to stay closed so I could leave the car in the parking lot. Willing to put up with quite a lot when I can average high 40's mpg.

 

[AirheadNut]

Got the transmission pulled out this weekend. Started Friday after work and pulled the driveshafts, shifter, wiring harness, clutch slave cylinder and loosened the bell housing bolts. Huge shout out to @2gbFlashDrive for being willing to swing by at short notice on Saturday to help wrestle the transmission out of the vehicle. Took off the pressure plate and clutch to examine the carnage. Several bits of mangled metal fell out upon removal.

Interestingly, all the paint had been removed from the pressure plate. I can only imagine that enough debris had been flying around the bell housing it effectively sandblasted the paint off.

 

[AirheadNut]

Plenty of wear on the pressure plate fingers.

Pressure plate surface looks fine, but the flywheel could use a resurface.

Some of the shrapnel:

You can see the shiny spots from stuff flying around in the bell housing:

 

[fjdiesel]

When I had my TDI in my 40. I put a spring on my clutch fork to pull the fork back so the throw out bearing was not riding on the pressure plate all the time. It took a bit of adjusting so I had a good pedal feel. But it was worth it.

I forget, what trans are you running?

 

[AirheadNut]

When I had my TDI in my 40. I put a spring on my clutch fork to pull the fork back so the throw out bearing was not riding on the pressure plate all the time. It took a bit of adjusting so I had a good pedal feel. But it was worth it.

I forget, what trans are you running?

That’s a good idea. I’m running the stock R150f transmission.

 

[AirheadNut]

Well, not too much to report yet, but some progress is being made. Stopped by a local machine shop with my adapter plate and spare bell housing and transmission case. They didn't have the right kind of metrology tools to accurately measure the bell housing bolt pattern and input shaft centerline, but referred me to a shop that might. Once I have the measurements they said it would be easy to make a new plate.

Looked into the Doomsday Diesel R150f/TDI adapter plate, but it is clocked wrong for my application (5º instead of 15º engine angle). Did some more digging and it turns out they make a batch of 15º adapter plates once per year for people who have put their name down for one. Next batch comes out in March. If I can't get the correct measurements to remanufacture my current adapter I will spring for that.

 

[AirheadNut]

While removing the adapter plate one of the countersunk bolts stripped out, so I had to drill the head off the bolt, then drill through it and use an extractor to remove the remains of the bolt. Luckily once the pressure from the bolt head was gone the shank unscrewed easily.

Cleaned up the back of the engine block a little. No leaks from the rear main seal, but I am planning on replacing it anyway since I am in this far.

The seal around the transfer shift lever appears to be weeping slightly, so a new seal was added to my parts order.

 

[geo5]

How’s the Prado doing @AirheadNut ?

 

[AirheadNut]

How’s the Prado doing @AirheadNut ?

I steam cleaned the transmission last week, then loaded it up into the trunk of the Jetta and made a whirlwind trip back to Whitefish this weekend.

Replaced the input shaft bearing, all the transmission and transfer case gaskets and a couple of oil seals.

Found out that there is an 8 week lead time for the Doomsday adapter plate, starting on the 18th of March. That would put me somewhere in mid-late May for getting the Prado back together, so I decided to revisit Plan A. Going to drop my spare bell housing and transmission case off at a shop that has a precision scanner to get measurements and start drawing up my own adapter plate.

 

[Waikato Willy]

if you want to do a back yard plate its really easy , get ya hands on some 10 - 20mm 60601 aluminium plate ( or even steel but aluminium is a heap easier to work with)
drill the centre for your input shaft , could be 15mm or something
sit gear box on and scribe holes for gearbox
grind some grub screws to points to fit back of block just sitting proud , use a piece of round bar( will have to be machined?) to locate the rear main bearing and the 15mm hole in adaptor plate and with a soft hammer mark the tap it to get the bolt pattern
once its all drilled use the good old circular saw with a bit of kerosene and cut the shape out ( its rugged on the blade but take ya time and it works well)
you could even weld the adaptor to the bell housing although Im not sure if you could get to all the bolts?
I dunno if this helps at all , I might be totally misreading what your adaptor plate is for and I haven't read through your whole post
this works really well though , I have successfully made adaptors for a VH45 to a RB25 gear box , an RB25 to a nissan D40 gearbox
, Holden gm 304 engine to a tremec TR6060 gearbox and a 13B rotary to a tr6060 ( this was actually a full steel bell housing to double as a scattershield) all using the same method to line up the bolt pattern , dowels and input shafts , all lined up really well , most important bit are the dowel holes and input/spigot locations , all the rest are just bolt clearance holes

 

[AirheadNut]

if you want to do a back yard plate its really easy , get ya hands on some 10 - 20mm 60601 aluminium plate ( or even steel but aluminium is a heap easier to work with)
drill the centre for your input shaft , could be 15mm or something
sit gear box on and scribe holes for gearbox
grind some grub screws to points to fit back of block just sitting proud , use a piece of round bar( will have to be machined?) to locate the rear main bearing and the 15mm hole in adaptor plate and with a soft hammer mark the tap it to get the bolt pattern
once its all drilled use the good old circular saw with a bit of kerosene and cut the shape out ( its rugged on the blade but take ya time and it works well)
you could even weld the adaptor to the bell housing although Im not sure if you could get to all the bolts?
I dunno if this helps at all , I might be totally misreading what your adaptor plate is for and I haven't read through your whole post
this works really well though , I have successfully made adaptors for a VH45 to a RB25 gear box , an RB25 to a nissan D40 gearbox
, Holden gm 304 engine to a tremec TR6060 gearbox and a 13B rotary to a tr6060 ( this was actually a full steel bell housing to double as a scattershield) all using the same method to line up the bolt pattern , dowels and input shafts , all lined up really well , most important bit are the dowel holes and input/spigot locations , all the rest are just bolt clearance holes

I thought about going with this method but don't have a good way to transfer the center of the input shaft to the plane of the belllhousing mounting surface. According to various engine/transmission manufacturers there needs to be less than 0.005" (0.12mm) runout and I wasn't confident about getting there by winging it. Don't want to wreck another clutch and have to tear it apart again! The place that is scanning the bellhousing has the capability to accurately mill out an adapter plate for me, they specialize in high precision machining.

 

[AirheadNut]

The 3D scan is in hand, drawings are underway! Will have to bolt the crossmember up to the transmission again and check the angle the transmission sits at.

 

[AirheadNut]

Making progress on the adapter plate design. A few more tweaks and I will have a file to send to the machine shop to get their opinion. Hoping to be able to order materials and get manufacturing underway sometime this coming week.