alia176
SILVER Star
Diesel gas argument (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter LandCruiserPhil
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- Thread starter
- #62
No sure I understand what you are asking?
I think mechanical diesels live a longer life (in the worst of remote working conditions) than a gas engine due to simplicity, but the markup on Toyota diesels is irrational (to me living in the US).
I love 6BT's as they are great in a tow rig (like my dually), however for me, penny for pound a new V8 (choose your poison) is very hard to beat in the power to weight ratio and MPG. Heck an old 350 TBI (with 700r4 not 4l60e) with 200K on it out runs a 1fz and 1hd easily, doesn't beat 1h in the mpg department though...
Secondly if you really want to compare you should look at cost of a used or crate LS, and compare to any other power train... If you can do the swap yourself its pretty cheap even when comparing to a rebuild...
Just my opinion, i could be wrong... For tow rigs I care about MPG as long as its above 9 we are good, for toys its just a by product...
I love 6BT's as they are great in a tow rig (like my dually), however for me, penny for pound a new V8 (choose your poison) is very hard to beat in the power to weight ratio and MPG. Heck an old 350 TBI (with 700r4 not 4l60e) with 200K on it out runs a 1fz and 1hd easily, doesn't beat 1h in the mpg department though...
Secondly if you really want to compare you should look at cost of a used or crate LS, and compare to any other power train... If you can do the swap yourself its pretty cheap even when comparing to a rebuild...
Just my opinion, i could be wrong... For tow rigs I care about MPG as long as its above 9 we are good, for toys its just a by product...
alia176
SILVER Star
Just curious as to why the turbo'ed diesel rig is not your current play toy that is setup for overlanding. Sorry for the confusion.
- Thread starter
- #65
Currently my NA 80 gas is super reliable, proven itself over the years, and built for what I do. I learned long ago when you have a good thing dont mess with it.
Initially I purchased the Safari Turbo gas 80 with the thought of upgrading my current 80 and after a lot of thought I stayed with what I have for the reasons above.
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Never try to figure out the economics of how much an 80 series costs to maintain and run.
It will quickly make you realize how terrible of an investment, or financial choice you're making.
In comparison to my HDJ81, my 2018 Raptor is an economical vehicle. $30 oil changes (that I don't have to do) zero repair costs, and the best depreciation curve in the game. I also get 17 MPG HWY driving at 80-85 on the cheapest gas possible.
My HDJ has $150 oil changes, and some fickle seal or part has to be replaced monthly, and gets 17 MPG on fuel which is 25% more expensive.
Phil is right.
It will quickly make you realize how terrible of an investment, or financial choice you're making.
In comparison to my HDJ81, my 2018 Raptor is an economical vehicle. $30 oil changes (that I don't have to do) zero repair costs, and the best depreciation curve in the game. I also get 17 MPG HWY driving at 80-85 on the cheapest gas possible.
My HDJ has $150 oil changes, and some fickle seal or part has to be replaced monthly, and gets 17 MPG on fuel which is 25% more expensive.
Phil is right.
$150 oil changes!? What oil do you put in there? Shell Rotella t6 and Toyota filter only sets me back $50 or so.
When I read what you stated about your friends diesel mpg, I was surprised how low. I get 19-20 commuting 45 miles round trip for work in my 7200# 2005 Dodge Cummins 4x4 with a little help from additional injection time out of a Smarty tuner. No big hills and a light foot. Diesel fuel contains more btu’s than gas and the turbo makes use of heat that would have otherwise been lost.
Is this debate about comparing the efficiency of a gas motor to that of a diesel motor or are we debating the cost to operate? The price of fuel, which fluctuates, is a major determining factor in monthly operating costs. There is no arguing the efficiency part; diesel wins hands down.
In 146k miles my Cummins has received only regular oil and filter changes, one cooling system flush and one serpentine belt. A new fuel filter constitutes and Cummins tune up.
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You put an exhaust brake on you Cummins powered 80??? You mentions “engine braking”.
FJBen
SILVER Star
Unless the 1FZ is in need of a rebuild, there isn't much of a rational argument for swapping to diesel. If you need to rebuild that 1FZ, money starts to get a lot closer. That said, there are some super pricey maintenance items on a diesel.
Injection Pump - $1400-$2000
Injectors $400-$800 is what i've seen quoted for 2 stage
Short of running mostly WVO, you probably won't ever recoup costs or MPG benefits on a swap. I believe most do it for the cool factor of diesel, unique rig and driving a diesel.
Not quite the same, but for the cost of fully rebuilding the 13BT, injection pump/injectors and turbo, I could have swapped a fuel injected V8 with 3 times the horsepower.
@projectcruiser Your argument might be a little better if you weren't comparing a 2018 vehicle with a 30 year old vehicle with unknown maintenance history that was never sold in the US. The Raptor is a slightly unique vehicle in the US commanding a premium and good resale. A regular truck would depreciate like a mofo.
Now if you were to compare a new 79 series turbo diesel vs the Raptor, you would at least be comparing apples to...Kiwi's or something...and still have money to upgrade the 79 series a little.
You are paying a premium for a specialty vehicle that was never available in the US, and most of which have LOTS of hard miles and unknown maintenance. We can only get 25yr or older at this point. Land Cruisers are very reliable, and their diesels have proven themselves over and over again all over the world. Worth the entry fee for that??
You can always pick up one of these gems and not pay the Land Cruiser tax.
Injection Pump - $1400-$2000
Injectors $400-$800 is what i've seen quoted for 2 stage
Short of running mostly WVO, you probably won't ever recoup costs or MPG benefits on a swap. I believe most do it for the cool factor of diesel, unique rig and driving a diesel.
Not quite the same, but for the cost of fully rebuilding the 13BT, injection pump/injectors and turbo, I could have swapped a fuel injected V8 with 3 times the horsepower.
@projectcruiser Your argument might be a little better if you weren't comparing a 2018 vehicle with a 30 year old vehicle with unknown maintenance history that was never sold in the US. The Raptor is a slightly unique vehicle in the US commanding a premium and good resale. A regular truck would depreciate like a mofo.
Now if you were to compare a new 79 series turbo diesel vs the Raptor, you would at least be comparing apples to...Kiwi's or something...and still have money to upgrade the 79 series a little.
You are paying a premium for a specialty vehicle that was never available in the US, and most of which have LOTS of hard miles and unknown maintenance. We can only get 25yr or older at this point. Land Cruisers are very reliable, and their diesels have proven themselves over and over again all over the world. Worth the entry fee for that??
You can always pick up one of these gems and not pay the Land Cruiser tax.
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I pay a bit more than 50 dollars (since the two jugs and change end up being close to 60, plus the filter @ 20. Rotella T6 and Wix) but no where near 150 dollars, must be that new unicorn blood oil or something.
- Thread starter
- #72
@projectcruiser sees lower than 20.2mpg in his HDJ81 (post #66)
Im currently testing the MPG on my HDJ80 and its not looking better than 20MPG for every day type driving.
I also had a Dodge 2003 HD 1 ton 4WD 4:11 and it never saw 20mpg
- Thread starter
- #73
Unless the 1FZ is in need of a rebuild, there isn't much of a rational argument for swapping to diesel. If you need to rebuild that 1FZ, money starts to get a lot closer. That said, there are some super pricey maintenance items on a diesel.
Injection Pump - $1400-$2000
Injectors $400-$800 is what i've seen quoted for 2 stage
Short of running mostly WVO, you probably won't ever recoup costs or MPG benefits on a swap. I believe most do it for the cool factor of diesel, unique rig and driving a diesel.
Not quite the same, but for the cost of fully rebuilding the 13BT, injection pump/injectors and turbo, I could have swapped a fuel injected V8 with 3 times the horsepower.
@projectcruiser Your argument might be a little better if you weren't comparing a 2018 vehicle with a 30 year old vehicle with unknown maintenance history that was never sold in the US. The Raptor is a slightly unique vehicle in the US commanding a premium and good resale. A regular truck would depreciate like a mofo.
Now if you were to compare a new 79 series turbo diesel vs the Raptor, you would at least be comparing apples to...Kiwi's or something...and still have money to upgrade the 79 series a little.
You are paying a premium for a specialty vehicle that was never available in the US, and most of which have LOTS of hard miles and unknown maintenance. We can only get 25yr or older at this point. Land Cruisers are very reliable, and their diesels have proven themselves over and over again all over the world. Worth the entry fee for that??
You can always pick up one of these gems and not pay the Land Cruiser tax.
I hate to admit it but I owned a factory 5.7 diesel Cadillac Eldo (white with red velour interior
) and it would get better than 20mpg after it received the new engine from GM.
I have a Pacbrake for mine. I will try to find room for it once I install my stiffer valve springs. Should be interesting when it's completed.
I never had this whole debate coming from a 3FE 80. It was 9mpg then to 18mpg now.
If I had to do a swap again I would look hard at a LS and avoid the bugs that come with a never done before type of engine swap. Big gas engines are sweet but they are everywhere just like jeeps. Not unique at all. A turbo'd 1FZ is a cool factor like a Land Cruiser.
Never go diesel for just the fuel savings.
FJBen
SILVER Star
@projectcruiser sees lower than 20.2mpg in his HDJ81 (post #66)
Im currently testing the MPG on my HDJ80 and its not looking better than 20MPG for every day type driving.
I also had a Dodge 2003 HD 1 ton 4WD 4:11 and it never saw 20mpg
I believe it.
My Ford Excursion 7.3L got 12 in town, 14-16hwy. Once I got 17.9 on a mountain trip with many many downhill miles. (all negated by return trip)
84 Isuzu P'up diesel 29-33mpg
2000 jetta 40 in town, 46 hwy in summer. currently at 37 with a bad MAF. best was 52 on the same mountain trip as above. It's my DD, but rarely sees more than 2 people because it's small. (my family is pretty tall)
Interested to see what the 13BT will pull...sort of. If it's low 20's, I'm ok with that.
My 2006 tundra quad cab gets 14~16 pretty steadily.
ALL of my past 80's (had 6 from stock to 35's) were 12-14mpg. 1 tank I got 17.8.
I can't imagine anyone getting high 20's or low 30's with a lifted, 33's/35s heavy SUV.
I agree @Jason Andrews never go diesel just for fuel savings, but I have to admit, that little crapbox TDI jetta I have has been the car I've owned the longest, and technically been the most reliable and cheapest to operate.
I take it to a local place, changing your own oil is bad economics. I don't have the time. I spend 4 months a year traveling internationally and a month or so a year traveling in the US and Mexico in my Land Cruiser. When I'm home, I don't want to change oil.
@projectcruiser sees lower than 20.2mpg in his HDJ81 (post #66)
Im currently testing the MPG on my HDJ80 and its not looking better than 20MPG for every day type driving.
I also had a Dodge 2003 HD 1 ton 4WD 4:11 and it never saw 20mpg
Phil, we got about 19 mpg on that Baja trip we left for after we last saw you. But that's because we were driving slower on the roads down there. Diesel was also incredibly expensive. It wouldn't surprise me if Yaeger's fuel cost was only slightly higher. The range is nice though.
I've seen as low as 15 mpg trying to keep up with traffic on west coast interstates.
- Thread starter
- #78
Good data
FWIW My travel partners 1HDT diesel does do A LOT better on slow speed wheeling than my gas 80.
Yaeger is not a good comparison as he for some unknown reason gets the worst MPG (8-9) of any 80 series I have ever seen. LOL
In the end drive what makes you the most comfortable.
Because Yaeger drives like a madman!
Exactly, drive what makes you happy. An 80 is not something you drive with your head, it's something you drive with your heart.
Having professionally reviewed most of the small displacement turbo-diesel vehicles Americans seem to yearn for, I am convinced that Americans will quickly throw the MPG savings out the window for the added power of the gasoline engines. Even Toyota's VDJ engine isn't that powerful.
- Thread starter
- #80
Agree the VDJ "single" turbo is not super powerful but I disagree when it comes to the VDJ "twin" turbo as its a monster with no lack of power.
