Diesel gas argument (1 Viewer)

[Rollinns]

People will like what they like. I'm not offended if people like gassers, to each their own, it's just not my cup of tea and I won't see the the same "premium" to get into a diesel, mostly because I'm not putting a Toyota diesel in mine. I do acknowledge there's a premium for a Toyota diesel.

That said I'm swapping to diesel for a few reasons:
1. with 270k on the stock gasser, I'll need to rebuild soon anyway and I've heard I'll have about the same money in a rebuild as what I can swap for. According to the swap parts I've already bought and the parts I need to buy, the costs will be very similar. This cost is not theoretical as I was able to pick up the donor truck cheap and sell the carcass for scrap.
If the costs are similar and I can get a lot more range and fuel flexibility, then I choose the diesel.
2. with the diesel I can set it up to run on Waste veggie oil. When I run it on WVO my fuel cost per mile is less than 1 cent per mile, which absolutely makes it cheaper to have a diesel engine. If I have to pay for WVO, that raises my cost to 5 cents per mile.

According to your data in the original post:
the fuel cost for your gasser is 14.47 cents per mile, while
the diesel fuel cost per mile is 15.84 cents.

I've ran WVO for 10+ years so I've seen the long term effects of it, and will still do the conversion.

3. from my experience gassers require cheaper but more frequent maintenance. I know diesel parts cost more, but for me the maintenance frequency on a diesel is noticeably less. Over the long run, the cost may be about even, it may not, but once you factor time in, then it is very close to even. The diesel I'm swapping in is a much less complicated engine than a gasser.

After I get the diesel in there and all the kinks are worked out, I plan to add a second fuel tank for WVO. The first WVO conversion I did paid for itself in 8 months, this WVO conversion should cost considerably less (as it will be my 4th WVO conversion and 3 design iteration - mainly due to parts changed and my own fabrication skills) . If I run out of WVO the conversion will still allow me to run it on Waste motor oil or used transmission fluid. If I run out of that, I can use that tank for diesel with no ill effects or parts to change.
That said, I've taken many vacations where I took extra WVO with me so I could fill myself up.

If the costs are similar (for me they are) , the only drawbacks to a diesel are:

1. less places to fill up
2. I need to plug in the block heater when it's cold.
3. takes a little longer to heat up in the winter

I'm ok with all the drawbacks since all the things diesels have going for them more than make up for it.

I'm just adding to the discussion, knowing that I'm probably not changing anyone's mind. One of the things that I really like about this forum is that we can have these discussions and be friendly without it turning into a hatefest.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

People will like what they like. I'm not offended if people like gassers, to each their own, it's just not my cup of tea and I won't see the the same "premium" to get into a diesel, mostly because I'm not putting a Toyota diesel in mine. I do acknowledge there's a premium for a Toyota diesel.

That said I'm swapping to diesel for a few reasons:
1. with 270k on the stock gasser, I'll need to rebuild soon anyway and I've heard I'll have about the same money in a rebuild as what I can swap for. According to the swap parts I've already bought and the parts I need to buy, the costs will be very similar. This cost is not theoretical as I was able to pick up the donor truck cheap and sell the carcass for scrap.
If the costs are similar and I can get a lot more range and fuel flexibility, then I choose the diesel.
2. with the diesel I can set it up to run on Waste veggie oil. When I run it on WVO my fuel cost per mile is less than 1 cent per mile, which absolutely makes it cheaper to have a diesel engine. If I have to pay for WVO, that raises my cost to 5 cents per mile.

According to your data in the original post:
the fuel cost for your gasser is 14.47 cents per mile, while
the diesel fuel cost per mile is 15.84 cents.

I've ran WVO for 10+ years so I've seen the long term effects of it, and will still do the conversion.

3. from my experience gassers require cheaper but more frequent maintenance. I know diesel parts cost more, but for me the maintenance frequency on a diesel is noticeably less. Over the long run, the cost may be about even, it may not, but once you factor time in, then it is very close to even. The diesel I'm swapping in is a much less complicated engine than a gasser.

After I get the diesel in there and all the kinks are worked out, I plan to add a second fuel tank for WVO. The first WVO conversion I did paid for itself in 8 months, this WVO conversion should cost considerably less (as it will be my 4th WVO conversion and 3 design iteration - mainly due to parts changed and my own fabrication skills) . If I run out of WVO the conversion will still allow me to run it on Waste motor oil or used transmission fluid. If I run out of that, I can use that tank for diesel with no ill effects or parts to change.
That said, I've taken many vacations where I took extra WVO with me so I could fill myself up.

If the costs are similar (for me they are) , the only drawbacks to a diesel are:

1. less places to fill up
2. I need to plug in the block heater when it's cold.
3. takes a little longer to heat up in the winter

I'm ok with all the drawbacks since all the things diesels have going for them more than make up for it.

I'm just adding to the discussion, knowing that I'm probably not changing anyone's mind. One of the things that I really like about this forum is that we can have these discussions and be friendly without it turning into a hatefest.

With all the choices why a 4BT?

 

[TonyP]

I agree with the above. I'm certainly not against diesels. The lowdown torque is intoxicating.
It just didn't make sense, cost-wise, for my build for me personally.
A re-freshed 1HD-FT with trans would be well over $10k. My re-freshed L92/6L80e comes in at half that with 400hp/400tq out of the box. Over 170k miles worth of gas difference, in price.
Again, I like diesels, just not my cup.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

I agree with the above. I'm certainly not against diesels. The lowdown torque is intoxicating.
It just didn't make sense, cost-wise, for my build for me personally.
A re-freshed 1HD-FT with trans would be well over $10k. My re-freshed L92/6L80e comes in at half that with 400hp/400tq out of the box.
Again, I like diesels, just not my cup.

5k for TurnKey V8 and automatic would be hard to argue when a short block 1 fzj it's the same price

 

[Rollinns]

With all the choices why a 4BT?

I'm not swapping in a 4BT, I have a 4BD1T (Isuzu) to go in.

 

[alia176]

Unfornutely I am one of those people that records all expenses in life down to the penny. So yes.

Well, let's have a drum roll please.....what's the cost of conversion? You realized $885 in fuel savings over 31k miles.

Again, you did this because you wanted to not because of any type of ROI which I get totally. Like I said previously, if you got the diesel itch, you should scratch it !

 

[Mr Cimarron]

Well, let's have a drum roll please.....what's the cost of conversion? You realized $885 in fuel savings over 31k miles.

Again, you did this because you wanted to not because of any type of ROI which I get totally. Like I said previously, if you got the diesel itch, you should scratch it !

Without being around my computer I believe it was all in at around 30K. That included parts and labor. I’m doing anything myself at the moment now that my skill set has advanced. Same drivetrain Cummins 6BT and NV4500.

 

[iptman]

Since when is the 1FZ complicated? Also, we have tons of 1FZs on this forum rocking 300k+ miles so I don't think the longevity argument holds much water.

 

[Dork]

I didn't buy a 23 year old suv for mileage reasons, so I decided to have some fun and get the smokier, smellier, shakier, rumblier, noisier option. Even with the mighty HDFT, it's entirely mechanical, with no ECU to worry about, so ends up being a different learning project to tinker with. Bonus was that on a 3000km trip last summer, diesel averaged $0.20/L cheaper than gas, along with the better mileage to boot, so yay!

I'm also a HUGE fan of strangers coming up to me in parking lots to say "woah, that thing got a diesel in it? Why's the steering wheel on the wrong side?"

 

[Douglas S]

Since when is the 1FZ complicated? Also, we have tons of 1FZs on this forum rocking 300k+ miles so I don't think the longevity argument holds much water.

Any gas engine is complicated in comparison to a mechanical pump diesel, even more so an engine with ecu-controlled spark and fuel injection. You can run an old diesel without any electricity.

 

[CaptClose]

Great debate... pulled these stats from the internet. Obviously the diesel’s power comes at much lower RPM’s, better mpg, etc... but can we discuss the pros and cons of each motor here and try and give unbiased views.

1FZ-FE
212 hp (158 kW)
275 lb⋅ft @ 3200 RPM (Torque)

1HDT
164 hp (122 kW)
266 lb⋅ft @ 1,400 rpm. (Torque)

 

[Dirty Koala]

I like both, I have a SC's 1FZ-FE in the LX450 and Cummins 6BT in the 80. The 80 is north of 8k lbs fully loaded (which it always is) and consistently pulls 23 mpg while producing 800 ft/lbs. The 1FZ drinks petrol like a team of rugby players chug beer after a match, but is a nice civilized ride. I will most certainly be getting a long range tank for the LX as I don't like having range anxiety while out in the back country....the diesel has not yet needed extra range and I have taken it almost as far remote you can in the states.

 

[iptman]

Any gas engine is complicated in comparison to a mechanical pump diesel, even more so an engine with ecu-controlled spark and fuel injection. You can run an old diesel without any electricity.

And I'd agree with you if there were a rash of ECU or electric related problems on 1FZs but those are few and far between. The worst I've seen electrically is the EFI relay and the fusible link. Both are easily fixed and spares should be in everyone's glove box. I guess my point is if the additional components in the 1FZ which make it "more complicated" have the same longevity as the rest of the engine does it really matter that it's more complicated? And I'm specifically talking about the 1FZ with mid 90s era electronics. We're not talking about a modern computer controlled vehicle where the transmission won't shift if the radio is removed.

 

[alia176]

This is a good debate and soliciting "unbiased" opinions will be nearly impossible given the passion each side possesses! We like, what we like and there's no justification for it.

But, I just want to point out that it'd be more fun to compare a turbo'ed Toyota diesel to a turbo'ed petrol 80. We know that the NA 1FZ-FE has more power/torque on paper but it'd be more interesting to get some #s from a turbo'ed 80 with the caveat that there aren't that many owners who own both turbo'ed rigs!

 

[mudgudgeon]

A simple way to answer this debate is look at the price of used gas 80s vs diesel 80s in a market where both are common.

I read that Australia has approx 30% of the world's Toyota diesel Landcruisers.

I recently bought a 93 fzj80 for $5k with 200k km on the clock.
A 93 hdj80 with HD-T and similar mileage would be 3-4 times the price.
A hdj80 at $5k price point would have 5-600k km on the clock, and be in rough shape.

I've previously owned hdj81 in Aus, and loved every minute of it.
With a bit of a tune up, a hdj80 can pump out 30% more torque. Change exhaust, turbo, intercooler, and a tune up, you can double the output.

On the face of it, the entry price for a turbo diesel 80 here makes not a lot of sense. Cost a lot more to buy in, but you get more back when you sell.

Diesel Price is currently roughly on par with petrol.
Maintenance cost is slightly higher on a diesel (more frequent oil and filter changes, more oil in the sump).

Petrol vs diesel, driving experience is very different. Both are good for their own reasons.
Bear in mind, I'm a stick shift guy, so manual to manual comparison, no auto.
Diesel torque is fun, easy to drive. Add turbo upgrade and the fun just gets better. Diesel is noisy.
Petrol has smoother acceleration, quieter and smoother generally.

I find the diesel harder to justify with a rational argument, and would probably buy petrol again mainly due to purchase price.

Oh, and with a diesel tuned right, you can have your fun, and forget the EGTs completely.

 

[Lumpskie]

I paid about a 10K premium for my 1HDT converted FZJ. Driving 40,000 miles in 2 years, I have loved every minute of it. During summer, diesel in on par with gas in my area. Like @nukegoat mentioned, our diesel prices increase in winter. But even with the increase, the price is usually close to mid grade gas. So, I still see the possibility of making the majority of the premium up in fuel savings. For additional costs for diesel, I guess oil changes are more expensive. Other than that, I haven't done anything to mine. All that is really in the noise for me though. The diesel just has so much character. On the highway, I love never having to downshift on hills. (My EGTs top out at 1200 going up hill in the White Mtns... but I ordered an intercooler so I can turn the fuel up for more fun) In the rocks, I love idling over everything... so much control. And I love it when people stare at it at the pump.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

This is a good debate and soliciting "unbiased" opinions will be nearly impossible given the passion each side possesses! We like, what we like and there's no justification for it.

But, I just want to point out that it'd be more fun to compare a turbo'ed Toyota diesel to a turbo'ed petrol 80. We know that the NA 1FZ-FE has more power/torque on paper but it'd be more interesting to get some #s from a turbo'ed 80 with the caveat that there aren't that many owners who own both turbo'ed rigs!

Ill take the Toyota turbo diesel over a turbo gas without question, and I have owned both.

 

[alia176]

Ill take the Toyota turbo diesel over a turbo gas without question, and I have owned both.

But you don't love the diesel enough to turn it into a play toy. Your current one is a NA gasser. Why?

 

[Jason Andrews]

This is a good debate and soliciting "unbiased" opinions will be nearly impossible given the passion each side possesses! We like, what we like and there's no justification for it.

But, I just want to point out that it'd be more fun to compare a turbo'ed Toyota diesel to a turbo'ed petrol 80. We know that the NA 1FZ-FE has more power/torque on paper but it'd be more interesting to get some #s from a turbo'ed 80 with the caveat that there aren't that many owners who own both turbo'ed rigs!

Then we need to compare premium 91/93/... octane gas price to diesel price.

Don't get a diesel if you value your time. Especially a Cummins. Every time you stop-even at stop lights, 3 dudes pop out of the woodwork and ask "Does that thing really have a Cummins in it?" Ain't nobody got time for all that talking!

 

[Squash]

You nailed it!
SC'd and Premium fuel
12mpg average at 60mph, maybe 14mpg if you run at 2200rpm.
Fuel anxiety.....makes me feel like a teenager on his first hot date.
Picked up a little 3b bj70 for the non-salt and snow seasons while I work on finding another HDJ81 or a HDJ80.
Being 60 I could even consider the 1Hz I'm retired so there is time to slow down.....