Your Thoughts on the LC 250? (12 Viewers)

[Jeremy556]

In the original Jurassic Park book, the Tour vechiles were Land Cruisers too. In the movies they spared expenses and used ford explorers instead.
John Hammond would be ashamed.

Pretty sure Ford paid to put them in the movie. They had a series of commercials with the Jurassic Park painted Explorers back in the 90s

 

[hoser]

At the end of the day Land Cruisers and the 200 in particular are only rare here because they didn’t sell all that well. That being said I do think it would have performed better had Toyota actually tried to market it and offered some lower level trims. Instead they said nothing about it and if you wanted one you had to pony up big money. Many people don’t have the coin to spend on a 200, they could only spend half and get the 4Runner, Sequoia, or whatever and again if they had the money they deemed something else to be of better value for their use case.

By the 3rd or 4th year, Toyota already knew they were not going to sell many LC200's and not profit much either. So why would they go another TEN YEARS in the US?

 

[Jetboy]

For those of us old enough to remember - the 60 series wasn't a halo vehicle in the 80s. The same was roughly true for the 80 as well. It was expensive, but especially the early 3F versions were dogs even in their prime.

The 40 IMO is "the" land cruiser and always will be. But they also go through trend cycles. I drove my current FJ40 home for $500. I bought another one for $800 a few years later. My parent's FJ40 IIRC my dad paid $1,500 for it in very clean condition with a plow on it. It's just a trendy vehicle right now. Mine is parked behind my parents' barn outside of Bozeman Montana and they literally are the end property on the road and I get one or two people per year going to the door at my parents asking if I'll sell it. You can barely see it from the road in a place where no one goes. Incidentally, someone asked this week about it and my response was "it's worth more to me than it's worth, so it's kinda pointless to look at it." And the guy said, "how about let me take a look and I'll make you an offer and we'll see." So... I guess we'll see. I was being polite and obviously didn't get the message across.

Like all trends - this will pass. Pretty much every pre 1950 car is on the decline. "Overland" is so oversaturated that it's gotta be near the end.

I tend to think the LC250 has an iconic aesthetic that hasn't been in an LC since the 80 and it'll be the next hot Toyota in 40 years. I think it'll be 40, 1g 4R, 80, 5g 4R, and LC250 in that order. I just don't see the demand for the 100 or 200 holding very long - or really any of the other BOF models with soft styling features. They don't have the right aesthetic of rugged outdoor adventure. I'd rather drive a 200. I just don't think they will elicit the same emotional response or nostalgia like the boxier styled models. And owning them as a toy is a very different set of criteria for me vs owning as a daily driver. Time will tell.

 

[MRego]

Stop and think about it… would you really let someone who is not in your field of expertise tell you how to do your job?

Not doing that. It is just my opinion when comparing a stripped-down Prado 1958 having the same MSRP (or even more expensive) than a 6th gen loaded TRDOP with amenities similar to my 200. It is still early to see moving unit numbers on the 6th gen, but the writing is on the wall if you visit Toyota dealers in my area and see piles of 1958s rotting in lots. I might be proven wrong, we will see.

 

[Specialeyes]

By the 3rd or 4th year, Toyota already knew they were going to sell many LC200's and not profit much either. So why would they go another TEN YEARS in the US?

Good question and one I don’t have the answer to but if I had to take a stab at it I’d say it’s got something to do with production planning and model lifecycle. They had an idea of how long the 200 Series was going to run when they launched it and I bet the margins in a fully loaded 200 were decent enough to get by while other models picked up the slack. Later on down the line when things weren’t improving (probably around 2016-18) the decision to kill it off here and launch the next gen Prado was made.

I heard similar rumors in 4Runner circles as there was a stretch where it was not selling well and thus began talks of discontinuing it. That is until sales suddenly shot up and have remained strong ever since hence the decision to keep it going and develop an all new model.

 

[Specialeyes]

Toyota dealers in my area and see piles of 1958s rotting in lots. I might be proven wrong, we will see.

I see this point made a lot and have to ask if these people only started car shopping within the last 5 years? Prior to the supply chain disruption of 2020 it was common to see a dealership lot filled to the brim with cars. You could go look at a new model car or truck and actually see and test drive multiple trims, colors, and power trains because the dealer had them in stock. I feel like all this talk of LC’s and other vehicles stacking up is just a return to better days of car shopping where we have lots of options to choose from and discounts to be had off of sticker price. We should be rejoicing this!

 

[Jetboy]

Good question and one I don’t have the answer to but if I had to take a stab at it I’d say it’s got something to do with production planning and model lifecycle. They had an idea of how long the 200 Series was going to run when they launched it and I bet the margins in a fully loaded 200 were decent enough to get by while other models picked up the slack. Later on down the line when things weren’t improving (probably around 2016-18) the decision to kill it off here and launch the next gen Prado was made.

I heard similar rumors in 4Runner circles as there was a stretch where it was not selling well and thus began talks of discontinuing it. That is until sales suddenly shot up and have remained strong ever since hence the decision to keep it going and develop an all new model.

All of the rumors were that the 5th gen 4R was basically intended to be the end of the line. The same was also true for the J150. They were basically just re-fresh of the 120 platform to extend out the life another 7ish years and then everything would be moved over to some unibody crossover. Like the Pathfinder and Explorer did. In the late 2000's that was the obvious direction. It's easy to see that being the case. The chassis was basically not updated at all despite a lot of know issues. Powertrain had minimal updates. It was a cash out. But the styling and value IMO what ultimately saved it. The market loved it. It attracted a lot of former Tahoe, Pathfinder, and Explorer buyers who still wanted a BOF suv but didn't want to spend $80k on a new Tahoe. Toyota couldn't justify cutting a 100K unit/year model and just kept on producing it. Not sure how true that is, but the rumors seem to fit what we saw on the ground.

The GX was also that way. IIRC somewhere back then was an interview with someone at Toyota exec who talked about how the GX was intended to run only a few years until Lexus developed a 3 row crossover based on the GS sedan. What the RX is to the ES was going to be the Lexus 3 row SUV. But the sales of the GX exceeded everyone's expectations to the point that the dealers demanded the GX get a second generation and they scrapped the next gen GS sedan (made it into the hydrogen car) and ended up with the Prado based GX.

 

[hoser]

Like all trends - this will pass. Pretty much every pre 1950 car is on the decline. "Overland" is so oversaturated that it's gotta be near the end.

Car enthusiasts often buy classic cars/trucks they wanted in High School/College but couldn't afford at the time. 20 years later, they have the buying power to purchase one. If shopping for a pre 1950's classic car, you were born in the 30's and probably dead or can't drive anymore.

 

[Devils Paw 80]

For those of us old enough to remember - the 60 series wasn't a halo vehicle in the 80s. The same was roughly true for the 80 as well. It was expensive, but especially the early 3F versions were dogs even in their prime....

I tend to think the LC250 has an iconic aesthetic that hasn't been in an LC since the 80 and it'll be the next hot Toyota in 40 years...

I viewed the 60 as a halo vehicle back in the 80's. Not only expensive, they were highly desirable from my point of view.

Hot Toyota in 40 years? That's a bold statement for such a long time out in the future. I most definitely won't be around to see it.

Alas, gone are the days when the Land Cruiser had its own special powerplant seen in no other vehicle model.
Don't most collector cars and trucks have some appealing features besides their styling? Aesthetics is the most important factor, for sure.

 

[Jetboy]

Car enthusiasts often buy classic cars/trucks they wanted in High School/College but couldn't afford at the time. 20 years later, they have the buying power to purchase one. If shopping for a pre 1950's classic car, you were born in the 30's and probably dead or can't drive anymore.

Yup. The American market is going to change a lot in the next 20 years as the boomers age out of a lot of markets. It'll have wide ranging effects from cars to housing to even tourism. I was in Key West last week and it was a sea of gray hairs in golf carts. And my overriding thought was, "what does this place look like in 15 years when none of these people are here?" My generation doesn't have that nostalgia for Duval street and Buffett music. People will always go to the beach, but it'll be a very different vibe and I'd guess a lot less people.

As far as cars - there may not be a demand for classic cars. Gen Z are not really even interested in cars or driving as a group. I'm not sure they'll have a "dream car" they couldn't afford in 30 years because all they ever wanted was an uber.

 

[hoser]

Well, if you you like used RV's and trailers, the baby boomer generation will have lots to sell in the next 0-10 years. I don't think overlanding, van-life, RV's and trailers will ever return to pre-pandemic levels. It has been adopted into the US lifestyle.... as it has been for Australia, Germany, France, New Zealand, Africa, etc for many, many years.

Last time I was in Key West was 20 years ago. Like then, I imagine it was always a destination for retirees/pensioners and LGBTQ travelers. And so, never drastically change?

 

[Jetboy]

Well, if you you like used RV's and trailers, the baby boomer generation will have lots to sell in the next 0-10 years. I don't think overlanding, van-life, RV's and trailers will ever return to pre-pandemic levels. It has been adopted into the US lifestyle.... as it has been for Australia, Germany, France, New Zealand, Africa, etc for many, many years.

Last time I was in Key West was 20 years ago. Like then, I imagine it was always a destination for retirees/pensioners and LGBTQ travelers. And so, never drastically change?

I'm not so sure. As the Tacoma Bros get older, have families, and are generally less ambitious I think they'll tend to lose interest in the overland life. Especially when the dopamine hits from Instagram quit coming and their friends have moved on to kids and other things. A large percentage of that group will be buying F150s and spending Saturdays at little league games. Gen Z won't pick up the slack because they're just not that interested in being outside, taking risks, or driving. I don't see van life extending into most people's 40s and the millennials are hitting that age. It's fun in your 20's, but starts to be pretty lonely and repetitive by your 40s.

 

[Rednexus]

I'm a old millennial, but growing up in an isolated, behind-the-times rural area, have some Gen X characteristics as well.

We have a camper and love campground life (which is why I keep complaining about the unimpressive tow capacity and towing MPG of a 250). Our kids love it as well, and it's relatively popular with families around here. Our campgrounds certainly have a lot of boomers at them during the week - but it's a healthy age mix on the weekends with tons of kids running around. However, but camper life does seem to be more of a blue-collar and rural thing. Very few of my professional colleagues who live in urban/suburban areas have or are interested in having campers. Which makes sense as it's a lot harder to store a camper and live with a tow vehicle daily when you live in the city.

 

[Jetboy]

I viewed the 60 as a halo vehicle back in the 80's. Not only expensive, they were highly desirable from my point of view.

Hot Toyota in 40 years? That's a bold statement for such a long time out in the future. I most definitely won't be around to see it.

Alas, gone are the days when the Land Cruiser had its own special powerplant seen in no other vehicle model.
Don't most collector cars and trucks have some appealing features besides their styling? Aesthetics is the most important factor, for sure.

It's always a guess. Anything with a top that comes off is all but guaranteed to be a hit. Even s***boxes. Someone some day will pay a premium for a Camaro convertible that IMO is one of the worst modern vehicles I've ever driven. But the top comes down. I think in this case it's the boxy styling that will hold the test of time. The common factor among almost all of the sought after classic 4x4s. I can't think of any vehicles without that general styling other than maybe a Unimog 404/406 and those are pretty niche vehicles. The slope of the windshield is probably highly correlated with future collectability in 4x4 suvs.

 

[onemanarmy]

If they did this I’d be in one right now instead of a 200. I did not like the NVH of the i4 in the 250. The 550 was more pleasant to drive but where I got soured on that was it just didn’t feel like it was worth the sum of it’s parts in it’s current state.


Toyota (and many other corporations) literally pay people to conduct market research and develop sales strategies and they are very good at it. They know better than any of us here on a message board. Stop and think about it… would you really let someone who is not in your field of expertise tell you how to do your job?

Toyotas job is to sell cars/make money

As a non-boutique auto maker, they (should) do this by appealing to the largest, broadest base possible.

Toyota does not no better than me, as a single person, about what I want out of a vehicle and what I will use it for. I've never been asked by any automaker what I want from a new car.

So all we have now is a bunch of overpriced, overstyled, overdone, too expensive 'zebra' cars and trucks that tick some 'green' boxes on paper but not in the real world.

 

[Rednexus]

Toyotas job is to sell cars/make money

As a non-boutique auto maker, they (should) do this by appealing to the largest, broadest base possible.

Toyota does not no better than me, as a single person, about what I want out of a vehicle and what I will use it for. I've never been asked by any automaker what I want from a new car.

So all we have now is a bunch of overpriced, overstyled, overdone, too expensive 'zebra' cars and trucks that tick some 'green' boxes on paper but not in the real world.

The hypothetical, lower-spec, VA35F powered LC250 I threw out there would probably make them some cash. While it would cannibalize sales from Toyota's SUV trims, it would also cannibalize sales from Bronco, Jeep, and fullsize pickup buyers as well. Basically a reasonably-priced SUV that can wheel and has 75-80% of the towing/hauling capability of a fullsize pickup, for about the same price, but with Toyota build quality. This would be a more versatile vehicle than a Jeep/Bronco (which are, let's face it, purely toys/status symbols for most and aren't really great at either daily-driving or "utility" use), without having the size/bloat of a fullsize truck, or the cost of a GX550/LX600. No other automaker makes anything like that in the US, but Toyota could easily make it if they wanted to (note: you could say the Sequoia falls in that bucket, but IMO the wheelbase and size make it too big to be good at wheeling on tight trails).

I'm sure they have their reasons as to why they are not doing that (CAFE/emissions, production capacity, market/consumer modeling, or just them wanting to make people buy-up to the high trim models). In the absence of that type of rig, folks like me will just continue to pick up GXs on the used market once their prices drop.

 

[MRego]

The hypothetical, lower-spec, VA35F powered LC250 I threw out there would probably make them some cash. While it would cannibalize sales from Toyota's SUV trims, it would also cannibalize sales from Bronco, Jeep, and fullsize pickup buyers as well. Basically a reasonably-priced SUV that can wheel and has 75-80% of the towing/hauling capability of a fullsize pickup, for about the same price, but with Toyota build quality. This would be a more versatile vehicle than a Jeep/Bronco (which are, let's face it, purely toys/status symbols for most and aren't really great at either daily-driving or "utility" use), without having the size/bloat of a fullsize truck, or the cost of a GX550/LX600. No other automaker makes anything like that in the US, but Toyota could easily make it if they wanted to (note: you could say the Sequoia falls in that bucket, but IMO the wheelbase and size make it too big to be good at wheeling on tight trails).

I'm sure they have their reasons as to why they are not doing that (CAFE/emissions, production capacity, market/consumer modeling, or just them wanting to make people buy-up to the high trim models). In the absence of that type of rig, folks like me will just continue to pick up GXs on the used market once their prices drop.

If Toyota throws the VA35F in the Prado, they will have to substantially increase the price of the Prado LC too close to the GX550. I am sure they did this math. Hell, even now depending on the GX trim it is already close enough that some people (given the option) would just purchase the GX550. I suspect once the GX550 are more readily available and stealerships stop with the mark-up adjustment nasty game, that is what is going to happen and people that could not care less for the LC nameplate will simply compare the two Prados and go with the GX with a better build quality and more power than the anemic 4 banger.

Of course, this is all assuming the whole "machine debris" gate affecting the LXs and Tundras does not trickle down to the GXs.

 

[Rednexus]

If Toyota throws the VA35F in the Prado, they will have to substantially increase the price of the Prado LC too close to the GX550. I am sure they did this math. Hell, even now depending on the GX trim it is already close enough that some people (given the option) would just purchase the GX550. I suspect once the GX550 are more readily available and stealerships stop with the mark-up adjustment nasty game, that is what is going to happen and people that could not care less for the LC nameplate will simply compare the two Prados and go with the GX with a better build quality and more power than the anemic 4 banger.

Of course, this is all assuming the whole "machine debris" gate affecting the LXs and Tundras does not trickle down to the GXs.

They don't have to mark up the price to get the good engine, they just choose to for whatever reason. They certainly offer hybrid/non-hybrid powertrains in their other vehicles - again like the Highlander (2 powertrains) and Rav4 (3 powertrains).

It's somewhat preposterous that I'd have to upgrade to a Lexus to get a new Toyota SUV that is capable of both wheeling and pulling my compact tractor on a trailer. I'm not going to want to hop into a brand new Lexus with muddy boots and dirty, sweaty work clothes after a long day of DIYing something. But, that's what Toyota has boxed buyers into. Their market research is probably targeted on urban customers infrequently use the "U" part of their SUV, as opposed to people like me who use the "U" more than the "S".

Again I don't mind used rigs at all and I'm sure they'll be a good supply of well-cared-for GX550s on the market in the future, and and they'll be plenty of GX460s/LX570s around for a long time if the machine-gate issue does not go away.

 

[onemanarmy]

Also not ticking people off is a good strategy for long term visibility for a car company.

Offer lots of trims and specs to appeal to the broadest base of current buyers, to get them in and happy and then buy again....(Was looking at tundras/tacos, but the new ones are so wrong.....so I'm out as a new Toyota pickup buyer.... forever most likely)

Like I said, no one has ever asked me what I want, and I'm looking....

I'll have a NA V6 with a tried and true 200k mile capable 6 speed auto, 32" tires and a rugged cloth interior and none of the nannies, screens, LED headlights, and gross use of exterior plastics that are far too overdone

That could be done for $40k. All of the expensive bits are shared across so many platforms that the cost per unit has to be minimum

 

[OSS]

If the previous generation land cruiser was the FJ60 (as an extreme example) and the 80 series, 100 series, and 200 series never existed, I think a lot more people would be tickled pink with the new 250.