Your Thoughts on the LC 250? (2 Viewers)

[Specialeyes]

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You see, failure to sell in large numbers is not a vehicle failure to an enthusiast. In fact, they are great vehicles to those who want to buy. In your eyes, looking at the 90-05 Acura NSX would be a failure. They continued to sell just a few hundred vehicles for years.

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But I know and @ryanCA knows this is a great vehicle that was not realized in it's time. And hence....
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There will be no more overbuilt V8 Land Cruisers with split tailgates in the future. Buy one now while you can.

I guess I never really viewed the Land Cruiser in the same vein as a performance halo car. Certainly one could make the case that it is, at least in the American market but I don’t think that was ever Toyota’s intent the same way it was with Acura building the NSX or Ford building the GT, Lexus with the LFA, etc. The all made those cars knowing they were not going to be mass produced, volume sellers.

The Land Cruiser on the other hand is a global product family with various series and trims that are sold in volume worldwide. The marketing folks at Toyota NA came to the conclusion that the only way the Land Cruiser would do well in North America was to only sell the top of the line wagon series in it’s fully loaded trim package as a luxury suv to compete against the domestic offerings. We all know by now that the average customer over here did not see the value in a $80-$90k top of the line Land Cruiser the way they seen value in a similarly priced Denali, Escalade, Range Rover, or something from the Germans. The 200 only sold in low numbers because the demand simply wasn’t there for it, if it was surely Toyota would have happily pumped them out?

 

[hoser]

In the US, it was Toyota's Halo SUV because it only came fully loaded and twice the cost of the 4Runner. For half (just guessing) of new LC250 buyers, this is their first LC. Nobody will deny, part of the reason they purchased it was because of the iconic name and reputation. The sales success of the 250 is partially due to the 200 and every LC before it.

Excerpt from Road & Track article:

"But it’s named Land Cruiser, and for decades, that moniker has not just represented another off-roader but a premium product. With the ’24 model, Toyota went for mainstream success over status, which opens it up to more buyers but also takes some shine off the badge. The Land Cruiser has been a status symbol in part because of its price, not in spite of it—a Veblen good, where respect, not just demand, increases with expense. That’s why TLC’s buyers fork over a quarter-million bucks for old versions. For years, the Land Cruiser has served as Toyota’s halo vehicle. Now it’s just another SUV in a packed house."


Excerpt from Pressroom Toyota article:

"While Land Cruisers were not high-volume vehicles, an intensely loyal global following had made them icons of Toyota’s global family. There was no doubt that the Land Cruiser’s reputation for durability had positively impacted the Toyota passenger car line in all markets. This minimalist, trail-conquering machine had become a sort of brand halo vehicle."

 

[Rednexus]

In the US, it was Toyota's Halo SUV because it only came fully loaded and twice the cost of the 4Runner. For half (just guessing) of new LC250 buyers, this is their first LC. Nobody will deny, part of the reason they purchased it was because of the iconic name and reputation. The sales success of the 250 is partially due to the 200 and every LC before it.

I've mentioned this before in other threads, but the Land Cruiser is really only a halo vehicle for Toyota enthusiasts. All generations of them are very uncommon vehicles across the USA in general - outside of in upper/upper-middle class enclaves who could afford them to start with. There are just not enough of them on the road to develop a reputation of any kind, much less an iconic status, for the non-enthusiast general public. The public just confuses the LC with a 4Runner or conflates the "Land Cruiser" badge with "Land Rover". However the more general "Toyota" nameplate certainly carries the reliability reputation, even here where most folks greatly prefer domestic vehicles.

I've seen at least one each of a 60, 80, 100, 200, 250, and a 300 (LX600) running around my small town. Out of those, only the 300 generates any attention as it's lifted and looks awesome. My modded GX does generate a fair amount of attention from the public because of they way it looks - but I very often get "what is that" or "that's a Lexus?" questions about it.

 

[hoser]

The vast majority of "Halo Vehicles" are not common. Folks see them in articles, movies, ads, dealerships, etc.

 

[Rednexus]

The vast majority of "Halo Vehicles" are not common. Folks see them in articles, movies, ads, dealerships, etc.

That may be true, but I can't think of a movie or ad with a LC in it off the top of my head. The general public also does not read much automotive press.

A stock MKIV Supra in a parking lot may draw a small crowd, but people would walk right past a stock 60+ series LC without even noticing it. A 40 would definitely get some attention, but it would be in the context of people trying to figure out why it says "Toyota" on it as opposed to "Jeep" .

 

[Specialeyes]

In the US, it was Toyota's Halo SUV because it only came fully loaded and twice the cost of the 4Runner. For half (just guessing) of new LC250 buyers, this is their first LC. Nobody will deny, part of the reason they purchased it was because of the iconic name and reputation. The sales success of the 250 is partially due to the 200 and every LC before it.

Excerpt from Road & Track article:

"But it’s named Land Cruiser, and for decades, that moniker has not just represented another off-roader but a premium product. With the ’24 model, Toyota went for mainstream success over status, which opens it up to more buyers but also takes some shine off the badge. The Land Cruiser has been a status symbol in part because of its price, not in spite of it—a Veblen good, where respect, not just demand, increases with expense. That’s why TLC’s buyers fork over a quarter-million bucks for old versions. For years, the Land Cruiser has served as Toyota’s halo vehicle. Now it’s just another SUV in a packed house."


Excerpt from Pressroom Toyota article:

"While Land Cruisers were not high-volume vehicles, an intensely loyal global following had made them icons of Toyota’s global family. There was no doubt that the Land Cruiser’s reputation for durability had positively impacted the Toyota passenger car line in all markets. This minimalist, trail-conquering machine had become a sort of brand halo vehicle."

Both of these articles were written for the North American market which, as I said one could certainly make a case for such over here. But I don’t think that was what Toyota intended it to be. @Rednexus raises a good point that the only people who flock to buy these over here are Toyota enthusiasts and we could only buy the top of the line, fully loaded trim because that’s all Toyota offered us.

I was trying to find sales data for other countries and did not have much luck but Wikipedia shows Australia selling nearly 5 times as many 200’s per year as the US. No data set for the Middle East or Africa which Id imagine would be higher as well. Yes it’s the best SUV in Toyota’s lineup but they also wanted to sell as many as they possibly could. If we had similar sales numbers to AUS I’d bet you we would have the 300 LC over here as well.

At the end of the day Land Cruisers and the 200 in particular are only rare here because they didn’t sell all that well. That being said I do think it would have performed better had Toyota actually tried to market it and offered some lower level trims. Instead they said nothing about it and if you wanted one you had to pony up big money. Many people don’t have the coin to spend on a 200, they could only spend half and get the 4Runner, Sequoia, or whatever and again if they had the money they deemed something else to be of better value for their use case.

 

[Catching Neutral]

That may be true, but I can't think of a movie or ad with a LC in it off the top of my head. The general public also does not read much automotive press.

A stock MKIV Supra in a parking lot may draw a small crowd, but people would walk right past a stock 60+ series LC without even noticing it. A 40 would definitely get some attention, but it would be in the context of people trying to figure out why it says "Toyota" on it as opposed to "Jeep" .

Which is why I appreciate when someone asks “what year is you 40”

 

[Catching Neutral]

I've mentioned this before in other threads, but the Land Cruiser is really only a halo vehicle for Toyota enthusiasts. All generations of them are very uncommon vehicles across the USA in general - outside of in upper/upper-middle class enclaves who could afford them to start with. There are just not enough of them on the road to develop a reputation of any kind, much less an iconic status, for the non-enthusiast general public. The public just confuses the LC with a 4Runner or conflates the "Land Cruiser" badge with "Land Rover". However the more general "Toyota" nameplate certainly carries the reliability reputation, even here where most folks greatly prefer domestic vehicles.

I've seen at least one each of a 60, 80, 100, 200, 250, and a 300 (LX600) running around my small town. Out of those, only the 300 generates any attention as it's lifted and looks awesome. My modded GX does generate a fair amount of attention from the public because of they way it looks - but I very often get "what is that" or "that's a Lexus?" questions about it.

A plus in my opinion that most people do not notice my 200 or know the value of it .

 

[Noctilucent]

Did you consider buying a Honda Ridgeline? Probably suits your needs... has more cargo room and has the best tailgate of all.

The only other vechile I'd get is a 200 series LC. that's it. Looking at the honda ridgeline is brother ew. what's that brother?

 

[Rednexus]

A plus in my opinion that most people do not notice my 200 or know the value of it .

That's why I'd love to have a 200! Stealth wealth that is capable and reliable enough that it can actually be used.

 

[MRego]

If we had similar sales numbers to AUS I’d bet you we would have the 300 LC over here as well.

You gotta factor in that in AUS (as well as in the ME/AF) they did have a number of different versions/trims for the 200, hence why higher selling numbers in terms of units. When Toyota axed the 200 in the US, they had a choice. Bring the 300 in several different trims and make it compete with the new Sequioa and LX600 or bring the Prado and make it compete with the new 4Runner and GX550. They choose the latter, probably because they thought a cheaper Prado would sell better and more in terms of volume because of the lower entry price. They were not wrong. Still a risky move, since IMO the 6th gen runner will cannibalize a lot of Prado sales. Their sin (to some of us) was to say the Prado was replacing the 200 as the "new land cruiser."

 

[Jetboy]

Point taken, although it's not a feature I'd every use very much. While the MPG is better around town, if anything it is worse towing and only a little better on the highway.

A better approach would be to offer a non-hybrid VA35F in the LC250 as an option. Since the GX550 is only 5,500 pounds, we can subtract let's say 200# of luxury bloat to get it to LC250 1958 interior spec. That would result in a ~5,300# SUV with a 9.5" rear axle, a payload capacity of 1,600#, a towing capacity of 9,300#, and a 0-60 time of around 6.0 seconds. And it would probably have better MPG than the 460/470 before it. Basically, a modern version of a 4th gen V8 4Runner.

That would be a highly capable rig that Toyota could easily build from their existing parts bin. It would be far better for my uses than a half-ton truck and much more capable than my GX470. I would definitely be interesting in buying it.

If Toyota sold the configuration most people want - it would have a hard time keeping the rest of the range. If Toyota offered a LC250 with a TTV6 in a mid trim softex interior package for $55k, it would take about half the GX550 sales, a portion of LX sales and probably also a lot of the 4Runners. I'd guess that option would take at least 1/3 of the midsize Toyota/Lexus BOF suv sales. The v6 has to be cheaper to manufacture than the hybrid/4cyl powertrain. Obviously you can buy a Tundra with all those specs for less than $55k, so it's definitely doable.

I'd go so far as to say the same about the Sequoia. If Toyota offered a Sequoia with a normal cargo area, no hybrid, and included the awd transfer case for around $65k in a mid-range interior - I think they'd cannibalize a bunch of LX sales.

 

[hoser]

That may be true, but I can't think of a movie or ad with a LC in it off the top of my head. The general public also does not read much automotive press.

A stock MKIV Supra in a parking lot may draw a small crowd, but people would walk right past a stock 60+ series LC without even noticing it. A 40 would definitely get some attention, but it would be in the context of people trying to figure out why it says "Toyota" on it as opposed to "Jeep" .

• Jurassic Park (1993) ...
• Independence Day (1996) ...
• The Lost World: Jurassic Park (1997) ...
• The Mummy Returns (2001) ...
• Fast and Furious (2001) ...
• Die Another Day (2002) ...
• Bad Boys II (2003) ...
• Lara Croft: Tomb Raider – The Cradle of Life (2003)

Land Cruisers in film

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[Noctilucent]

View attachment 3890794

• Jurassic Park (1993) ...
• Independence Day (1996) ...
• The Lost World: Jurassic Park (1997) ...
• The Mummy Returns (2001) ...
• Fast and Furious (2001) ...
• Die Another Day (2002) ...
• Bad Boys II (2003) ...
• Lara Croft: Tomb Raider – The Cradle of Life (2003)

Land Cruisers in film

forum.ih8mud.com

In the original Jurassic Park book, the Tour vechiles were Land Cruisers too. In the movies they spared expenses and used ford explorers instead.
John Hammond would be ashamed.

 

[Rednexus]

View attachment 3890794

• Jurassic Park (1993) ...
• Independence Day (1996) ...
• The Lost World: Jurassic Park (1997) ...
• The Mummy Returns (2001) ...
• Fast and Furious (2001) ...
• Die Another Day (2002) ...
• Bad Boys II (2003) ...
• Lara Croft: Tomb Raider – The Cradle of Life (2003)

Land Cruisers in film

forum.ih8mud.com

Thank you, I have seen most of those but don't recall any LCs in them. Probably as they did not have major roles - i.e., supporting actors .

 

[Rednexus]

If Toyota sold the configuration most people want - it would have a hard time keeping the rest of the range. If Toyota offered a LC250 with a TTV6 in a mid trim softex interior package for $55k, it would take about half the GX550 sales, a portion of LX sales and probably also a lot of the 4Runners. I'd guess that option would take at least 1/3 of the midsize Toyota/Lexus BOF suv sales. The v6 has to be cheaper to manufacture than the hybrid/4cyl powertrain. Obviously you can buy a Tundra with all those specs for less than $55k, so it's definitely doable.

I'd go so far as to say the same about the Sequoia. If Toyota offered a Sequoia with a normal cargo area, no hybrid, and included the awd transfer case for around $65k in a mid-range interior - I think they'd cannibalize a bunch of LX sales.

Sad that they protect the upper-tier trims by sandbagging the lower tier trims and forcing people to spend $$$$ to get a capable rig. I get their strategy, but the domestics are different - back to Ford, you can pick-and-choose your options.

I may just end up with a used GX550 in the future when it's time to retire my GX470.

 

[Catching Neutral]

Recently The Old Man

 

[Specialeyes]

If Toyota offered a LC250 with a TTV6 in a mid trim softex interior package for $55k

If they did this I’d be in one right now instead of a 200. I did not like the NVH of the i4 in the 250. The 550 was more pleasant to drive but where I got soured on that was it just didn’t feel like it was worth the sum of it’s parts in it’s current state.

They were not wrong. Still a risky move, since IMO the 6th gen runner will cannibalize a lot of Prado sales.

Toyota (and many other corporations) literally pay people to conduct market research and develop sales strategies and they are very good at it. They know better than any of us here on a message board. Stop and think about it… would you really let someone who is not in your field of expertise tell you how to do your job?

 

[Catching Neutral]

Wonder why Ford uses the Burger King method ?

 

[Specialeyes]

View attachment 3890794

• Jurassic Park (1993) ...
• Independence Day (1996) ...
• The Lost World: Jurassic Park (1997) ...
• The Mummy Returns (2001) ...
• Fast and Furious (2001) ...
• Die Another Day (2002) ...
• Bad Boys II (2003) ...
• Lara Croft: Tomb Raider – The Cradle of Life (2003)

Land Cruisers in film

forum.ih8mud.com

I’m going to have to go back and re-watch Fast & Furious and Bad Boys 2.