Yep - another Pitman arm question ( subtitle: this thing tried to kill me) (1 Viewer)

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So as some of you are aware I am working hard to shake this rig down before the upcoming event and the steering appears to be the last major issue that I need to address.

I will post more pictures later but there’s really two things that I need to do;

1) replace all of the tire rods because there are knackered. They should be straightforward because everything is available and tie rods are basically tie rods, so not real worried about that.

2) Address the scary Pitman arm set up that I didn’t realize was a giant safety risk. I didn’t realize how loose my Pitman arm connection was and I had a scary steering wobble develop when I was doing some testing and I discovered that this connection was ready to come undone. As you can see from the picture below if there is a ton of slack in the system and it is so badly matched that there’s no tapered fit, so it’s impossible to snug down the connection. You can see that I added some spacers and a cotter pin so it at least was not going to come a part of me when I was moving it but obviously I cannot run it like this and it needs to be addressed.

It looks like BTB makes a pitman arm that addresses this but I know people have had success doing a number of other approaches. This rig has a reverse shackle lift on it with about a 3 inch pipe, so I do need something that has a pretty good drop to it. The current arm locates at the right height it’s just the taper is wrong.

I suppose if everything else fails I could sleeve this or weld it and re-drill but that doesn’t seem like the most elegant approach.

Thanks again for all the help!
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The BTB pitman appears to be the same as what you have. Did you verify the tie rod end compatibility? Did you get a matching tie rod end?
Are you certain the issue is the taper on your pitman? Maybe a tie rod end with a different taper would fit properly? I have yet to see a pitman arm taper get wallowed out, although it is very possible with mis-matched tie rod ends.

Given the tie rod itself (in your last pic) is a disaster waiting to happen, I would be suspicious of all the components.
 
Thanks for the response @pjohnson

I ordered a new correct for the Pitman arm tie rod fitting, not sure what the heck is going on with the current set up but I agree it all needs to be looked at skeptically. My hunch is the current pitman arm is a Jeep unit.

I’m going to replace all the tie rod ends with new ones so will use that opportunity to clean and inspect everything.

Any ideas, replace most likely, on the welded rod in the last picture?

Thanks and happy Friday!
 
Fixed it for you. It appears to be a stock tie rod. I'm sure Kurt @cruiseroutfit or Mark @65swb45 can help with that.

Yes, I have the tie rod ends and the steering rods as well. Have the relay rod for the Saginaw with the SAE fitting on the one end and the metric on the other.

And I know the OP has my phone number. ;)
 
there is a lot going on there
brake lines need attention, is it still a single circuit setup?
looks like the steering arms are on the wrong side. the angle is all wrong on them.
does the steering box have the same rotation left and right, is it centered?
missing a bolt on the knuckle backing piece
nothing holding the driver side shock to axle
 
@3_puppies - yes, and you are being gentle in your wording to describe it all. It's a bit FUBAR right now.

I am going to take it all apart and correctly put it back together. I'll need to find good reference pictures as this is all new to me.

The shock bolt is my bad, I mistakenly left one finger tight which is why you never leave anything finger tight.

Brake lines need to be secured but they don't foul (and are all new).

The steering as I inherited it is off, it is uneven in side to side motion with one directly hitting lock and the other moving freely, which I assume is due to the Pitman arm being installed without the box being centered?

Someone mentioned that these look like Mini truck outers?

Thanks!
 
Saginaw kits like those from Advance Adapters, use CJ5/7 pitman arms and a relay rod that uses the 17mm thread
from the Land Cruiser on one end and the 11/16 thread at the top. This relay rod allows you to keep the cruiser
rod end down at the steering knuckle, which has the Toyota taper, and the CJ rod end at the top to match the taper
in the CJ pitman. The pitman will be the same whether you buy it from Omix ADA, Crown, Rough Country ar any other
Jeep parts retailer. The price will vary greatly. If theres that much slop in your rod end at the pitman, the person that did the swap used a Toyota end in the pitman with a Jeep taper. The splice is there because the correct relay is shorter than the stock relay.
Rather than buying the right pieces they shortened the factory rod and shimmed up the toyota rod end so they could tighten the nut.
The taper doesn't match so it's a short term fix. It will wear quickly that way
 
@3_puppies - yes, and you are being gentle in your wording to describe it all. It's a bit FUBAR right now.

The steering as I inherited it is off, it is uneven in side to side motion with one directly hitting lock and the other moving freely, which I assume is due to the Pitman arm being installed without the box being centered?

Someone mentioned that these look like Mini truck outers?

Thanks!

Problem with the drop pitman is that, compared to the stock CJ pitman is that is shorter. If the box is installed too far forward
the angle on the relay rod compounds . You will always have a drop from the pitman to the steering knuckle. That's one angle.
If the box is too far forward you'll compound that angle with a front to back shift. The shorter pitman won't allow full lock right too left
if the angles get too high. The extra inch of a stock pitman may allow full travel while the drop arm may require turning out the axle stops down a the steering knuckle. The stops will prevent steering box damage if you slam into a rock at full lock. Many times , with the
drop arm you can't center the box in relation to the steering travel. The center of your steering travel may be a half turn off to one side
of the steering box center. In other words if you center the box then adjust the relay to point the wheels straight forward, you may find
that you can go full lock to one side and not the other. If this happens you may just want to swap to the straight arm to test it.

Those wouldn't be mini truck outers unless you have 60 series knuckle. The 40 relay rods use a smaller taper than the 60 series.
The mini truck and 60 use the same taper however the mini truck has a 17mm thread where the 60 has a 21mm thread. The
rod end in your pic are 17mm. You could use mini truck rod ends but then you'd need to swap out to mini truck or 60 series
outers and steering arms.

As a note. Stock Jeep arms are "keyed" to fit at an angle in relation to the box. This is because a CJ steering gear is mounted at an
angle from the frame so with box mounted the arm sits straight front to back. Advance Adapter has their own CJ pitmans that have the index keys shifted to mount the the arm straight in relation to the box. Their arms are about 90.00. A stock CJ replacement is 20~30.
You can cut the four index keys out with a die grinder allowing you to mount the arm in any configuration

the index keys are wide spots in the spline that align with corresponding wide spots on steering box sector shaft

1569684099351.png

 
Looking at the pic, it appears the tie rod is the one that's been welded on. The relay rod appears to be unaltered, but there's not a complete pic of the rod. I'm pretty sure the pitman arm is a stock arm from a j**p yj.
I'm using 1 on my scout box conversion. I installed a starter bushing in the taper, so I could use a fj40 relay rod end.
 
Looking at the pic, it appears the tie rod is the one that's been welded on.

I think the tie rod was cut and welded also, most likely because the steering arms are on the wrong side making the distance between them closer, making the original tie rod too long needing to be shortened.
not sure on the rim backspacing, so if he puts the arms on the correct side, the rims may rub them, so he may need spacers.
I can't tell but if he has small pattern knuckles he can't use 60 or mini arms.
 
@3_puppies
good eye. I missed that. It will never steer well like that and now that I stare at the pics of the knuckles, it is a mini truck disc conversion.
At least the rotors are non vented truck rotors...and are the steering arms from different trucks? Pics isn't clear on the driver's side.
At the steering arms they are probably 40 series with the conversion bushing. I built that bushing through most of the 90's . Specter
and cruiser outfitters now handle them
 
I was told I have FJ60 knuckles but I am not knowledgeable enough to identify them for sure.
 
@lcwizard - does that change the thinking on how to address this properly?
One of the problems at least. The arms are designed specifically to work with each other. The bends are purposeful.
The inside tire on a turn must steer a slightly tighter radius than the outside. The bends in the arms aren't random.
Swapping them right to left changes the steering dynamics. One tire will scrub through the turn. With power steering I don't know
how unmanageable it is but the fact remains it doesn't work well when you swap placement.

research ackerman geometry of steering on google
 
OK -so taking all of this and turning it to a get-well plan,

Job #1 get the missing bolt in there

Job #2 is get the steering arms back on the correct sides? Idea being that will help make sure I am setting up the rods and links properly AND determine if I need wheel spacers?

99E8F627-0FBD-4429-955E-8BACD45F4BB6.jpeg
 

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