What's better offroad, 80 series, or 100 series?

[ginericLC]

However, a competent driver in an IFS truck can go where the 80 can. We have two club members with 100 series and I have wheeled a lot with the FJ team. And my daughter has a 4runner.

Now I am not saying the IFS is as capable as the 80 series. Put an average driver in an 80 and then a 100 and he/she will do much better with the 80 due to the solid front axle. Put a great driver in an IFS truck and they will do better than the 80.

It's like I went and bought the best Galloway driver with the 460 head. That is the most forgiving club and I can hit that better than any other driver. But a better golfer can take a cheap driver and outplay me because of his skill. The equipment can only take you so far and an excellent driver can compensate for poor equipment.

Ken,

I disagree with some of this. There are a lot of places I've been with my 80 that no 100 with IFS is going to make it no matter how good the driver is. I do agree that driver skill has a lot to do with how a vehicle gets down the trail. I realized this is true even more this summer when I wheeled with 3 other like equipped 80s in Colorado. The rigs were all set up similarly. It was amazing to watch how one rig would fly right through a section and then the next rig would get off track and get bound up. And then the next obstacle could be entirely different for each rig as the driver chose the lines. The golf club example almost works. The reason it doesn't work for this argument is there is a physical size difference between the two vehicles. Physical size does matter on some trails. I've been on trails so tight with my 80 that the clearcoat was peeling off, where would that put the 100? Crushed! This brings me to another point. It is a lot easier to accept damage to a vehicle that you have invested 16k into than a vehicle you have 25k into. And I'm talking total build cost. The dang 100s are expensive to build!

I recently went through the change from the 80 to 100. There are some things the 100 excels at there are places it where it doesn't. My driver skill did not change, but the amount experience I have with the IFS did greatly. I know I will be able to do more with the 100 once I get more experience with it. But I also realize it's limitations already. It is sort of like the guy with the 33" tires. He knows he can go so far, he knows he can go further with 35" tires. He sees the potential. Well, I know my driving isn't up to par for the 100 but I already see what the potential is of the vehicle. And the potential for the 100 tight trails that need a lot of articulation sucks.

Since some of you have brought up the FJ Cruiser I feel I need to comment on that too. The FJ Cruiser is very similar in size to an 80. The IFS on it behaves much differently than on a 100. It uses springs versus torsion bars. I think this is a better system off road from my observations. Granted I'm not a ME or a suspension designer or a professional off road racer, but from my observations it appears to perform better.

Hummer 1s/Hum Vees weren't designed for North American Off Road. They were designed to carry a load across the desert at speed. And they do a good job of that. H2s I can't say anything nice about them. They are an overweight Tahoe with very breakable parts. HA! Here is a spot where the 100 would shine off road. Towing out a broken h2. My old 80 was pretty tired dragging the H2 off the trail with broken diffs and transfer case. Now the H3 has some potential, much like the FJ Cruiser.

Anyway, really the debate could go on and on forever. And really you need to define off road better to know which is better. Off Road is way too vague. Does off road mean off pavement? Or does it mean on a trail? What type of trail? Or does it mean sand dunes? OR???

 

[alvarorb]

I've spotted several 100 series through the Rubicon. Without a doubt I can say that I don't have to worry about the 80 series as much as I worry about the 100 making it over obstacles. Furthermore, I've seen a 100 series front diff grenade in front of me.

It was an obstacle no bigger than 6 inches for the front tires, and maybe another 4 inches for the rear. It was on pretty much leveled ground. A spot that I've taken my 80 many times over and without thinking about it.
The 100 driver gave it a little gas, maybe 1500 RPM, next thing I heard was a "clank" sound. And we had to tow the rig out of the trail.

Just my two cents.

Alvaro

 

[ginericLC]

I've spotted several 100 series through the Rubicon. Without a doubt I can say that I don't have to worry about the 80 series as much as I worry about the 100 making it over obstacles. Furthermore, I've seen a 100 series front diff grenade in front of me.

It was an obstacle no bigger than 6 inches for the front tires, and maybe another 4 inches for the rear. It was on pretty much leveled ground. A spot that I've taken my 80 many times over and without thinking about it.
The 100 driver gave it a little gas, maybe 1500 RPM, next thing I heard was a "clank" sound. And we had to tow the rig out of the trail.

Just my two cents.

Alvaro

Don't worry Alvaro I have no intentions of taking my 100 out there with you guys. So that is one less 100 you need to worry about. A Death Valley type trip sure I'd bring the 100. I'm trying to build a 60/80 (60 body on 80 frame) for wheeling.

 

[billmiranda]

Well,..
Since we're in the wrong forum to begin with and this is a good flamesuit question... I vote for the Turbodeisel 105 that I drove in Africa... Toyota installed front and rear lockers, winch, lift, larger tires, plastic interior (you can hose it out), cooler in center console,.. just damned sexy!!!

Bill
TLCA#7390

Sorry, I wasn't sure which section to post this question in, so as a previous 80 series owner, I thought I'd put it here. Also, I did try numerous searches, but couldn't find it. Feel free to redirect this to a different thread if it has the relevant information pertaining to my question.

I'm thinking about buying another 80 or 100 series, I liked my old 80 (locked of course) but am also considering a 100 series. On road ride quality isn't the most important thing to me as they both are quite good (100 I know a little better). What's more important is the off-road prowess of them. I do a lot of backcountry weekenders sometimes 100's of miles away from pavement.

Stock for stock, or equally lightly modified, ie. 33" tires, 2-3" lift, etc... Also, let's suppose the 100 has the factory rr diff lock, and the 80 series has both lockers, but is just using the rear.

What's more capable? Also, will the 80 really out-do the 100 on the front locker issue alone?

Your comments or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Romer]

Eric I agree with your comment on when size matters. In the same vein there are a few trails that a 40 could do that an 80 can't since it won't fit. Two years ago (I hear it is better now) Flat nasty trails were cut in the trees for a shorter wheel base. The 80's had difficulty and I damaged my 80 simply on this factor.

The Golf exmaple still works because you wouldn't use a Driver on a 85 yeard Par 3. Club is just to big for that hole.

My statement was based on trails both the 100 and 80 could go on. Your point about size is a good one.

 

[KliersLC]

Jeep = Chrysler

Chrysler = the suck

Ahh, I was a little slow last night

dunno about you, but i'd take my 7.5" IFS locked on 35's over that solid axle dana 30 on 33's...which is already too much tire for that axle. dana 44..now thats a different story.

it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that ifs flex is non existent. for me, i'd rather have ultimate traction over ultimate flex...

I'd probly never buy a jeep, but as far as axles go, I grenaded the open front diff on my T100 running 32 inch swampers on a loose dirt hill climb. On 35s you are asking for breakage on an IFS setup.

I think the main difference is that you can swap in the D44 much easier on a rubicon than a 100 or FJ-cruiser. On that note, I have not ever broken a birf, even with the coarse splined birfs in the pig, but folks I wheel with go through u-joints on their 44s all the time....

 

[billmiranda]

You can make an IFS rig "Articulate" as well as a Solid axle (SA). Thing you have with SA is that when a tire say, on the right goes up,.. it lifts the diff up with it (as the diff is not solidly mounted to the frame or anything) and sort of pushes the left tire down, lifting it (right side and vehicle) even more. with IFS,.. driving up on an obstacle with your tire causes a "weighting" of the diff,.. causing it to drop (actually the truck as my IFS is solidly mounted) and costing you ground clearance. This can be overcome with stiffer springs, which is why I mounted my SAW bars. IFS is it's own worst enemy just based on it's physics. But hey,.. it was design to maintain tire contact on Pavement,.. not rocks. IFS rocks on-road but,.. that's not where I choose to drive my trucks so,.. I drive my 4Runner around town on errands,.. when I go off-road (if I can ever get around to it), I take my 80 series,.. just in case.

Bill
TLCA#7390

 

[KliersLC]

How many words is a picture worth?

 

[Beowulf]

... if you have ever seen ATRAC in action, you know it kicks ass and will compete and even win over a double locked 80 in certain situations.

I have yet to see this be the case in real life applications.

Then you haven't been wheeling very long.

LandCruisers4Life,
OK, I'll bite. Please give examples where an ATRAC FJC or an ATRAC 100 will "win over a double locked 80". Pics if possible and as many examples as you can come up with since you used the plural, "situations". (FYI, locked 80s are triple locked.)

And for the record, I know Beno and the guy wheels his junk hard. What are your wheeling credentials?

One more thing.... do you know a guy that goes by "TexasBadLands"? He was from your part of Texas and used to hang around in Chat. He owned a stock FJ40, a LR Disco II, lived in San Antonio, and drove a FJC.

-B-

 

[alvarorb]

I have heard this argument for years between IFS and SFA, and in reality the skills of the driver are what is dependent on whether the rig gets where you point it. I have seen SFA 40s and 80s struggle where my FJC just cruised right through. I have seen guys in the same kind of rig I was driving (at the time my FJ40) at the time not make it where I went in my rig. Driving skill means a lot. I don't agree with your analogy that IFS is for on road and SFA is for off road. The IFS of today is superior, and stronger than it was 20 years ago. I can, and do wheel both set ups. I am not the best off road driver, but I am not a newbie by any means and have never had problems with IFS. I think that's all a head game.

LandCruisers4Life,

Lets do this. Next year, you and I will do the Con. You on your IFS FJC and me on my 80. And while we are it, let's invite Mr. Shotts. Who's been suspiciously quiet on this thread.

Regards

Alvaro

 

[-Spike-]

I think the main difference is that you can swap in the D44 much easier on a rubicon than a 100 or FJ-cruiser.

You don't have to swap a '44 into a Rubi, they come stock with 'em. Now if they could come stock with a Toyota-quality frame and drivetrain, I'd buy one.

-Spike

 

[tntoyota]

Anyone who thinks IFS can even come close is


An architect can probably tell you better than I can but it has something to do with the planes on which the suspension is mounted....


The SA in only mounted by the suspension...the limiting factor.


The IS is mounted to the chassis, the chassis direction of angle directly effects the other articulating tire NOT SO MUCH, NOT AS MUCH as an SA


Also ONE SIDE of the travel plane is in relation of the chassis angle it can only go inside its travel parameters set by the bump stops

???

 

[MJADDICTION]

dunno about you, but i'd take my 7.5" IFS locked on 35's over that solid axle dana 30 on 33's...which is already too much tire for that axle. dana 44..now thats a different story.

it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that ifs flex is non existent. for me, i'd rather have ultimate traction over ultimate flex...

Well, the Dana 30 used on the Cherokees are a 7.2 ring gear, AND a reverse pinion (high pinion). Strength compared to a 7.5 IFS, well debatable on that one. Solid axle I think wins it in the axle diameter size, no CV's etc.

Rubicons come with the Dana 44's 8.5" ring gear.

My MJ has dana 44's, my Cherokee had a HP Dana 30, never a problem, even with hard use and the dana 35's.

Just a little info.

 

[tntoyota]

How many words is a picture worth?

me like

 

[4WD Toyota Owner Magazine]

LandCruisers4Life,

Lets do this. Next year, you and I will do the Con. You on your IFS FJC and me on my 80. And while we are it, let's invite Mr. Shotts. Who's been suspiciously quiet on this thread.

Regards

Alvaro

A fine challenge, but still, if you have seen Pete Parks of www.parksoffroad.com take his Tacoma over the Rubicon like I have, multiple times unscathed, there'd be be people who would think a little differently about IFS, or at least the driver skill thing. I personally believe that it is driver skill 95%, the truck 5%. I too saw a guy, Dave from NM, take his open 40 on 33's across Poison Spider at Moab no problem.

But this is 100 vs 80, not 80 vs Tacoma, so all bets may be off.

In the end, WHO THE FAWK cares? I've wheeled with guys at Paragon in stock 1986 IFS 4Runners, a ton of IFS Tacomas, up to Slee's unreal blue SAS 100 at Moab this year and they're all 4WD Toyotas! Get a Toyota, any Toyota that floats your boat, build it up and have a blast with it.

One last thing on a 100. If you have the cash, sure, buy one, build it up and wheel it. You'll have the "unique" and "wow, look at that" factor going for you, too. Send me the build and I'll publish it, even!

 

[tntoyota]

Ya'll stop talk'n Jeep bad enough I want one.....

pneumatics's, SA's... 4 door hard top, soft ....or should I say soft, semi....


and a Discovery (they look so cool, but oh so krap)

 

[-Spike-]

In the end, WHO THE FAWK cares?

Maybe the guy who started the thread, looking for advice?

-Spike

 

[Romer]

I too saw a guy, Dave from NM, take his open 40 on 33's across Poison Spider at Moab no problem.

Same guy. He is an awesome driver and really shows what a skilled driver can do.

Lexusben is a very skilled driver and takes his 100 everywhere we take our 80's. If you have been to Moab the last few years you have likely met him.

Robbie is one of the best drivers around and I think he could take a VW through the Rubicon.

 

[LandCruisers4Life]

LandCruisers4Life,
OK, I'll bite. Please give examples where an ATRAC FJC or an ATRAC 100 will "win over a double locked 80". Pics if possible and as many examples as you can come up with since you used the plural, "situations". (FYI, locked 80s are triple locked.)

And for the record, I know Beno and the guy wheels his junk hard. What are your wheeling credentials?

One more thing.... do you know a guy that goes by "TexasBadLands"? He was from your part of Texas and used to hang around in Chat. He owned a stock FJ40, a LR Disco II, lived in San Antonio, and drove a FJC.

-B-

Yeah as a matter of fact, TexasBadlands was my old handle. Til my son got onto my account and started stirring s*** up on here. I then changed my handle and password and now log in each time.

As far as examples go, I don't carry a camera around with me everywhere I go. Since you're a technojunkie, I would imagine you document each time you go to the bathroom. Yes I have seen ATRAC vehicles go up and over obstacles, such as hill climbs with ledges and loose rocks that double locked (ok triple since you want to add in the CDL) 80's were struggling on. ATRAC allows the vehicle to maintain control much better than a front diff lock.

What are my wheeling credentials? Let me pull out my portfolio. Give me a break, wheeling credentials? How about 20 years of wheeling experience in Toyota pickups, Nissan Pathfinders, FJ40, FJ55, Rovers, and the new FJC on some tough, muddy, rocky, tight trails. I have run IFS and SFA both and have had no problems with either.

 

[Beowulf]

Yeah as a matter of fact, TexasBadlands was my old handle. Til my son got onto my account and started stirring s*** up on here. I then changed my handle and password and now log in each time.

Better change your password again Bubba, because your kid is over in the Electronic Toys section throwing insults at Mark Whatley, one of the most respected Cruiserheads on the planet.

-B-