Then you haven't been wheeling very long.
What's better offroad, 80 series, or 100 series?
- Thread starter arbetrader
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Then you haven't been wheeling very long.
I have heard this argument for years between IFS and SFA, and in reality the skills of the driver are what is dependent on whether the rig gets where you point it. I have seen SFA 40s and 80s struggle where my FJC just cruised right through. I have seen guys in the same kind of rig I was driving (at the time my FJ40) at the time not make it where I went in my rig. Driving skill means a lot. I don't agree with your analogy that IFS is for on road and SFA is for off road. The IFS of today is superior, and stronger than it was 20 years ago. I can, and do wheel both set ups. I am not the best off road driver, but I am not a newbie by any means and have never had problems with IFS. I think that's all a head game.
Cruiserdrew
On the way there
Even if it was, the 80 still wins.
I like 100s, but ask yourself this...
How many guys with 80s want to convert them to IFS?
How many guys with 100s want to convert to SFA?
Now an 80 with the V8 of the 100 would be pretty cool.
As soon as he-who-must-not-be-named shows up, we'll get an earful and some pictures of 100s in silly poses on decorative landscape rocks.
cc93cruiser
CRUZAHEAD
Are you in anyway related to our dear friend from AZ...
...Come on bro, quit your denial trip and look at the obvious facts...There is no one out there building rock buggies or off road machines with IFS systems/components.. Live axles articulate when wheeling a lot more than a IFS system.. And that alone means it is a better offroad system. Yes you are right about the driver's skills having a big part when out wheeling, I too feel like if you give me a mini with an independent front, I will take it where others will take their solid axle rigs.. But it can only take you so far, especially when that extra inch or two of articulation that you gain with a SFA makes a difference in those crtitical situations.... SHOTTS in 5, 4 , 3......P.s... Toyota themselves still sell solid axle rigs in all rural parts of the world, here in the states we get the IFS rigs because of insurance issues and for most Americans 95% of the driving is on road.. My 0.02 cents...
Cruiserdrew
On the way there
Uhhhh Robert, I hate to break the news to you, but independent suspension is the trend there as well....
Not that that alters any 80 vs 100 discussion!
cc93cruiser
CRUZAHEAD
Uhhhh Robert, I hate to break the news to you, but independent suspension is the trend there as well....
Not that that alters any 80 vs 100 discussion!
80's rule.................That's all to be said.. It's the only reason why we have all these 80 vs whatever threads...Always trying to compare with the elite wheeler...
OK, I've done lots of wheelin over the past 20 years. Ifs, to solid front axles. So lets take this to the extreme, and I'll tell ya about an experience with some of our collective favorite rigs... the Hummers.
I got to go with a dealership on a Hummer expo, using and driving both the H1 with IFS front and rear, and the H2 with IFS up front, solid axle with locker in the rear. We went to an off road park that I have driven many times in a cherokee with coil sprung 4 link (ok, really 5 link), solid axle front, and leaves in the rear.
Comparing the two hummers....
The H1 wa lowsy... really lowsy. Why? IFS front and rear, and too damn big for trail riding. I saw the H1 get stuck on obstacles that the H2 went right through. The H1's were constantly getting stuck, even with the slf air down tires, and lockers front and rear, plus all that electronic wizzadry. The H2's did fair much better, but twisty trails saw the H2 at rediculous angles, at one point my friends H2 had a rer tire 5 feet off of the ground. Why?, limited suspension travel, especially in the front. We could make it through most obstacles with just a rear locker, but the stability of the rig was severely compromised.
Same trails ith a flexy Cherokee on 35's lockers front and rear was absolutely no comparison. Same BFG tires as the H2, but on the twisty narrow trails, all four wheels of the Cherokee were on the ground. The body exhibitting very little lean. Honestly, for the most part, a twisty trail with a goud flexing solid axle rig is very sure footed, and easy to drive.
I'm only using the cherokee in this example as it is a solid front and rear axle, and I have the most experience off roading them at this point.
Pics speak volumes; I'll fill these up when I switch computers.
Here is my Cherokee in the same spot that an H1 got stuck, and the H2 was leaning so badly, with one rear tire 5 feet in the air. Cherokee, all four on the ground, and look how the body isn't leaning much. This is a nasty twisty trail;
Here is my MJ on the same trail (not me driving), with leaves up front, and in the rear. Still a very flexy set-up over IFS in the front.
here is a front shot of the XJ on the same trail;
Again the Comanche flexin, not leaning, front shot;
Rear shot;
IFS front H2;
H1
H3
Why do this to an IFS if it's so great off road?
Because doing this in a rig off road is just plain scary;
Does that help?
I do believe that the 100 series is pretty flexy for IFS, but still no match for a solid axle;
I don't care how much you want to argue tht IFS is an equal now with all that electronic stuff, but when your out on the trail, leaning all over the place with a big body rig and IFS, you'll understand. Solid axles rule on and off the road in my opinion. The more travel and flex, at a cheaper easier maint. cost, is the only way to go. IFS is a multi linked mess. If you really want to test this out...
A Challenge..... FOLLOW ME!
I got to go with a dealership on a Hummer expo, using and driving both the H1 with IFS front and rear, and the H2 with IFS up front, solid axle with locker in the rear. We went to an off road park that I have driven many times in a cherokee with coil sprung 4 link (ok, really 5 link), solid axle front, and leaves in the rear.
Comparing the two hummers....
The H1 wa lowsy... really lowsy. Why? IFS front and rear, and too damn big for trail riding. I saw the H1 get stuck on obstacles that the H2 went right through. The H1's were constantly getting stuck, even with the slf air down tires, and lockers front and rear, plus all that electronic wizzadry. The H2's did fair much better, but twisty trails saw the H2 at rediculous angles, at one point my friends H2 had a rer tire 5 feet off of the ground. Why?, limited suspension travel, especially in the front. We could make it through most obstacles with just a rear locker, but the stability of the rig was severely compromised.
Same trails ith a flexy Cherokee on 35's lockers front and rear was absolutely no comparison. Same BFG tires as the H2, but on the twisty narrow trails, all four wheels of the Cherokee were on the ground. The body exhibitting very little lean. Honestly, for the most part, a twisty trail with a goud flexing solid axle rig is very sure footed, and easy to drive.
I'm only using the cherokee in this example as it is a solid front and rear axle, and I have the most experience off roading them at this point.
Pics speak volumes; I'll fill these up when I switch computers.
Here is my Cherokee in the same spot that an H1 got stuck, and the H2 was leaning so badly, with one rear tire 5 feet in the air. Cherokee, all four on the ground, and look how the body isn't leaning much. This is a nasty twisty trail;
Here is my MJ on the same trail (not me driving), with leaves up front, and in the rear. Still a very flexy set-up over IFS in the front.
here is a front shot of the XJ on the same trail;
Again the Comanche flexin, not leaning, front shot;
Rear shot;
IFS front H2;
H1
H3
Why do this to an IFS if it's so great off road?
Because doing this in a rig off road is just plain scary;
Does that help?
I do believe that the 100 series is pretty flexy for IFS, but still no match for a solid axle;
I don't care how much you want to argue tht IFS is an equal now with all that electronic stuff, but when your out on the trail, leaning all over the place with a big body rig and IFS, you'll understand. Solid axles rule on and off the road in my opinion. The more travel and flex, at a cheaper easier maint. cost, is the only way to go. IFS is a multi linked mess. If you really want to test this out...
A Challenge..... FOLLOW ME!
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Yup, I can vouch for that. IH8WorkingOnIFS
Even for a simple oil change. Ever changed oil/filter on an IFS 4Runner? HUGE mess, all over the IFS components.
Just my -$.02.
That's candy, now go into the same 4Runner and repair the starter!!!!
I gave up trying to get the starter out and rebuilt it through the wheel well with it sitting on the frame. This was the 4Cylinder, my neighbor had the same issue with his 6 in a Tacoma.
Back on topic, I wheeled last weekend with a bunch of trucks and was following a FJ Cruiser all day. I ran the same lines as he did but never lifted a tire. We both made it over all the obstacles but I had much better control and an easier time. You will not get the same amount of traction from having only 3 wheels in contact with terra firma as you do with 4 regardless of electronics, traction devices or driver input.
Uh No. The ONLY reason IFS was developed was for on-road capability. Look at the history of car design. It is fact. IFS is so much better on-road that SFA is pretty much extinct. IFS has so many advantages on road that it would be product suicide to put SFA on any consumer vehicle.
Today, SFA is only used absolutely where IFS cannot be. That shows you where the limitation of IFS is.
"The IFS of today" is stronger and better designed, that's true. It is still no where as durable or strong as a SFA and will never articulate as well. That isn't a boast, that's the physics of the setup.
If you want a more basic demonstration of independent suspension vs. solid axle, look at IRS vs. SRA. Articulation, durability and payload all go to SRA. Comfort, onroad handling go to IRS.
Of course driving skill, tire placement, etc have a lot to do with wheeling. That's a given. However, the basic characteristics of suspension design are not opinion. Study suspension design history and see. This is a given too.
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As much as I hate to admit it , jeep is the only automaker that markets a real off road rig in north America......
it has a solid front axle.....
I have wheeled (mildly but extensively) the following SA rigs--81 and 85 minis, 69 fj-55, 93 LC and 94 LC. I have also wheeled a 94 4runner and my 95 T100 about the same amount, and while all of the rigs end up going where I want them too, I had to beat the 4runner and the T100 quite a bit harder than any of the others. They both took it like champs, but the solid axle rigs just kinda went where they were pointed....even in stock form.
it has a solid front axle.....
I have wheeled (mildly but extensively) the following SA rigs--81 and 85 minis, 69 fj-55, 93 LC and 94 LC. I have also wheeled a 94 4runner and my 95 T100 about the same amount, and while all of the rigs end up going where I want them too, I had to beat the 4runner and the T100 quite a bit harder than any of the others. They both took it like champs, but the solid axle rigs just kinda went where they were pointed....even in stock form.
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Ture, but it's still Chrysler. That's the biggest problem.
Huh?
dunno about you, but i'd take my 7.5" IFS locked on 35's over that solid axle dana 30 on 33's...which is already too much tire for that axle. dana 44..now thats a different story.
it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that ifs flex is non existent. for me, i'd rather have ultimate traction over ultimate flex...
These threads pop up twice a year.
Yes the 80 has a solid Front axle which off road makes the equipment better.
However, a competent driver in an IFS truck can go where the 80 can. We have two club members with 100 series and I have wheeled a lot with the FJ team. And my daughter has a 4runner.
Now I am not saying the IFS is as capable as the 80 series. Put an average driver in an 80 and then a 100 and he/she will do much better with the 80 due to the solid front axle. Put a great driver in an IFS truck and they will do better than the 80.
It's like I went and bought the best Galloway driver with the 460 head. That is the most forgiving club and I can hit that better than any other driver. But a better golfer can take a cheap driver and outplay me because of his skill. The equipment can only take you so far and an excellent driver can compensate for poor equipment.
Last year on Kenny's climb in Moab I saw a 40 open on both diffs just scoot up it with no issues followed by a vehicle with lockers that couldn't make it. That 40 driver was very good.
Yes the 80 has a solid Front axle which off road makes the equipment better.
However, a competent driver in an IFS truck can go where the 80 can. We have two club members with 100 series and I have wheeled a lot with the FJ team. And my daughter has a 4runner.
Now I am not saying the IFS is as capable as the 80 series. Put an average driver in an 80 and then a 100 and he/she will do much better with the 80 due to the solid front axle. Put a great driver in an IFS truck and they will do better than the 80.
It's like I went and bought the best Galloway driver with the 460 head. That is the most forgiving club and I can hit that better than any other driver. But a better golfer can take a cheap driver and outplay me because of his skill. The equipment can only take you so far and an excellent driver can compensate for poor equipment.
Last year on Kenny's climb in Moab I saw a 40 open on both diffs just scoot up it with no issues followed by a vehicle with lockers that couldn't make it. That 40 driver was very good.
