Towing with a 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser (8 Viewers)

[artwerks]

All 200-series are plenty capable of serious towing. They aren't necessarily designed around towing, but that has its own benefits for mixed use. In countries like Australia, the LC is THE workhorse for towing, including for commercial use and into the unforgiving outback.

I haven't towed with the 8-speed but my experience towing several different heavier trailers with the 6-speed is that it's great and holds its own. Perhaps some of that credit is to the robust and tractable 5.7L. The one area where I would probably appreciate the much lower 1st gear of the 8-speed, and more usable ratios is in the mountains at elevation, and powering away from a stop on grade. The wider ratios of the 6-speed (effectively a 4-speed when towing 8k lbs) can sometime put me in a gearing desert where I don't have enough torque after dropping into 2nd gear at low RPMs to further accelerate. The 8-speed would be better at helping the engine stay on boil with high RPM power. This is teasing at details though as this is the extreme exception, where otherwise the 6-speed delivers all around. I suspect the 8-speed can eek out more cruise MPG with a better selection of ratios.

This is a good intro to my real question about the 8-speed. I do live in the mountains and have concerns about towing over mountain passes at high altitude with an NA truck. I understand your point about the shorter gears in the 8-speed offering more torque, but on the flip side, the 200-series’ with the 8-speed transmission also have a lower final drive ratio that has less torque than the 6-speed FDR. Does that mean that the 6-speed with a higher FDR would tow just as well over mountain passes as the 8-speed with a lower FDR?

 

[artwerks]

Towing you're supposed to not to go over 4th gear in a 2015 or earlier, with the 8 speed you're not supposed to go above 6th gear. Putting it in "S" mode and locking the maximum top gear are the directions in the users manual.

Wouldn't recommend a 200 series for full time duty towing campers and cars. Get a diesel truck designed for those kinds of things. Not saying it cannot be done, but an LX is rated to ~7.5k lbs tow rating, the Cruiser is 8500.

If this is for a business, I wouldn't try and exceed the GVM unless you like large regulatory fines/tickets.

I tow a small pop-up camper a number times in the summers and I occasionally tow one of my cars to/from the race track. I’ve no towing business as if I did I’d look elsewhere as you suggested. But in my case I’m sure the 200 will do exactly what I need.

 

[TeCKis300]

This is a good intro to my real question about the 8-speed. I do live in the mountains and have concerns about towing over mountain passes at high altitude with an NA truck. I understand your point about the shorter gears in the 8-speed offering more torque, but on the flip side, the 200-series’ with the 8-speed transmission also have a lower final drive ratio that has less torque than the 6-speed FDR. Does that mean that the 6-speed with a higher FDR would tow just as well over mountain passes as the 8-speed with a lower FDR?

Considering overall gearing which includes transmission and diff, the 8-speed has better low end gearing than a 6-speed with 4.88 aftermarket diff ratio.
This might help.

Definitive 200-series Gearing Reference

So I had a little time this morning to put together a chart combining transmission gearing of 6-speed vs 8-speed, diff ratios, and tire sizing into an overall gearing reference. Hoping this will be useful for those trying to understand how their changes are going to effect overall gearing of...

forum.ih8mud.com

The torque hole only exists towing above 8k ft elevation where the engine is probably down 30% in power. Moving 15k lbs combined.

 

[AnyMal]

This is a good intro to my real question about the 8-speed. I do live in the mountains and have concerns about towing over mountain passes at high altitude with an NA truck. I understand your point about the shorter gears in the 8-speed offering more torque, but on the flip side, the 200-series’ with the 8-speed transmission also have a lower final drive ratio that has less torque than the 6-speed FDR. Does that mean that the 6-speed with a higher FDR would tow just as well over mountain passes as the 8-speed with a lower FDR?

I know you didn't ask but the 8 speed while it has advantages, is the primary issue I have with my truck. It just does not shift intelligently at all. Always doing something extra dumb. Double drop down shifts, short shifting, delayed shifting. Revs out if you floor it but I don’t want this to rev out either. Unresponsive… Kind of horrible around town.

 

[linuxgod]

I know you didn't ask but the 8 speed while it has advantages, is the primary issue I have with my truck. It just does not shift intelligently at all. Always doing something extra dumb. Double drop down shifts, short shifting, delayed shifting. Revs out if you floor it but I don’t want this to rev out either. Unresponsive… Kind of horrible around town.

I think the transmission itself is probably fine, it’s just that Toyota’s ECU logic which tries to eke out extra MPG doesn’t really work for most of us. I know there are aftermarket reflash options in Australia for the 6 speed that apparently make a difference.

That said if you can’t reflash the transmission ECU then it’s all the same to most of us

 

[AnyMal]

I think the transmission itself is probably fine, it’s just that Toyota’s ECU logic which tries to eke out extra MPG doesn’t really work for most of us. I know there are aftermarket reflash options in Australia for the 6 speed that apparently make a difference.

That said if you can’t reflash the transmission ECU then it’s all the same to most of us

Yes, its definitely the programming. The shifts themselves are smooth and quick. The transmission seems robust and gearing range is good.

But yeah, I really wish there was a way to have my ECT reflashed. There are some learning procedures I've yet to do that are really over the top complicated (logistically) that im hoping will help a bit. But really, even with pedal commander, its just acceptable now. On Sport -2, and usually in S7, (my preferred throttle response map), it will literally "kick down" twice (feature which the 200 doesn't have actually). It is really bad. It will downshift, into a horrible band, and immediately shift again, then the revs will overshoot my intention. I dont use the power mode, because that kind of doesnt address my problem. I dont really want to hold gears longer, I want to be in the right gear at the right time, which seems like its the last thing the ECU wants to do. It is constantly trying to give me a .05% increase in MPG while sacrificing drivability. It is always shifting for no reason to accomplish this. It wants you to be in the most unresponsive gear for your speed for fuel economy at all times. Thats fine, but the downshift programming is horrible if not outright dangerous. Also, this is coming from stock. Before tires, and anything else. Ive actually improved it. There was several scary onramp moments before I realized not to enter the highway in D / Comfort, or good forbid "ECO" LOL.
I'ts the last thing keeping me from loving the truck instead of just really liking it. After I add an aux tank of course.

 

[linuxgod]

Yes, its definitely the programming. The shifts themselves are smooth and quick. The transmission seems robust and gearing range is good.

But yeah, I really wish there was a way to have my ECT reflashed. There are some learning procedures I've yet to do that are really over the top complicated (logistically) that im hoping will help a bit. But really, even with pedal commander, its just acceptable now. On Sport -2, and usually in S7, (my preferred throttle response map), it will literally "kick down" twice (feature which the 200 doesn't have actually). It is really bad. It will downshift, into a horrible band, and immediately shift again, then the revs will overshoot my intention. I dont use the power mode, because that kind of doesnt address my problem. I dont really want to hold gears longer, I want to be in the right gear at the right time, which seems like its the last thing the ECU wants to do. It is constantly trying to give me a .05% increase in MPG while sacrificing drivability. It is always shifting for no reason to accomplish this. It wants you to be in the most unresponsive gear for your speed for fuel economy at all times. Thats fine, but the downshift programming is horrible if not outright dangerous. Also, this is coming from stock. Before tires, and anything else. Ive actually improved it. There was several scary onramp moments before I realized not to enter the highway in D / Comfort, or good forbid "ECO" LOL.
I'ts the last thing keeping me from loving the truck instead of just really liking it. After I add an aux tank of course.

Maybe email and ask if their transmission reflash works with the 8 speed?

LOCKUP KITS & REMAPPING - Richards Auto Electrical

LOCK UP KITThe principle of this modification is to achieve more direct drive from the transmission. By locking the torque converter we can prevent the constant hunting caused by locking and unlocking the converter. It is important we still maintain the factory driveability of the vehicle and...

richardsauto.com.au

 

[mdh384]

This is a good intro to my real question about the 8-speed. I do live in the mountains and have concerns about towing over mountain passes at high altitude with an NA truck. I understand your point about the shorter gears in the 8-speed offering more torque, but on the flip side, the 200-series’ with the 8-speed transmission also have a lower final drive ratio that has less torque than the 6-speed FDR. Does that mean that the 6-speed with a higher FDR would tow just as well over mountain passes as the 8-speed with a lower FDR?

I towed with my '08 through the basin and range region of NV, and while the truck is certainly capable of doing it with no indication of overheating (although there is no trans temp gauge) there were quite a few surprise 2nd gear downshifts on grade, along with a fair bit of hunting between 3 and 4 on slight-but-extended climbs. Any attempts to use 5 on anything other than downhill were met with near constant 5-4-5 shifts. I have not experienced the 8-speed, so I can't compare to that directly. However, the LC200 was much less frustrating than towing the same load with a 4.0 tacoma that had a nasty habbit of throwing a trans temp light, but more frustrating than towing significantly heavier with a 1-ton diesel. For reference this was largely towing on the I-80 corridor between NE NV and SLC, attempting to maintain 70-75mph.

 

[Ratchey]

I towed with my '08 through the basin and range region of NV, and while the truck is certainly capable of doing it with no indication of overheating (although there is no trans temp gauge) there were quite a few surprise 2nd gear downshifts on grade, along with a fair bit of hunting between 3 and 4 on slight-but-extended climbs. Any attempts to use 5 on anything other than downhill were met with near constant 5-4-5 shifts. I have not experienced the 8-speed, so I can't compare to that directly. However, the LC200 was much less frustrating than towing the same load with a 4.0 tacoma that had a nasty habbit of throwing a trans temp light, but more frustrating than towing significantly heavier with a 1-ton diesel. For reference this was largely towing on the I-80 corridor between NE NV and SLC, attempting to maintain 70-75mph.

If you were to hook up a monitor to your transmission you would see that nearly everytime you shifted to 5th your transmission temps would shoot up within seconds to over 240 degrees and climb from there. I find when towing my 3800 lb trailer that I leave in 4th unless I have a really flat area and a slight tail wind or slight downhill.
I was suprised to see how fast the temps went up when there was any strain in 5th and how quickly they went right back down when I dropped back to 4th.

 

[mdh384]

If you were to hook up a monitor to your transmission you would see that nearly everytime you shifted to 5th your transmission temps would shoot up within seconds to over 240 degrees and climb from there. I find when towing my 3800 lb trailer that I leave in 4th unless I have a really flat area and a slight tail wind or slight downhill.
I was suprised to see how fast the temps went up when there was any strain in 5th and how quickly they went right back down when I dropped back to 4th.

I don't doubt it. Any time the TC unlocks under towing load you're asking a lot of the trans fluid, so a ton of heat gets generated. The trans tries to use 5th, finds the load too high so unlocks the TC to see if that helps, then eventually drops to 4th (TC still unlocked) to try and recover, and if it does it goes back to 5th and sits with the TC unlocked until it fully recovers... which it never does. If you watch the RPMs closely you can see this play out. A TC lockup kit would help to solve that issue, but they need to be used with some care (or good programming) so as to not bog the engine.

 

[AnyMal]

Just to make sure, there is no factory TC lockup indicator outside of gauges right?
I have OBD fusion I'm just curious if there is potentially something outside the phone to monitor or some kind of mod or trick.

 

[04UZJ100]

Just to make sure, there is no factory TC lockup indicator outside of gauges right?
I have OBD fusion I'm just curious if there is potentially something outside the phone to monitor or some kind of mod or trick.

You can watch the RPMs. They lower slightly when the TC locks. Can also monitor pan and torque converter fluid temps. When locked, they’re essentially the same.

 

[artwerks]

Is there a reason I shouldn't go with the 2023 Tundra TRD Pro that has better gas mileage, a 12,000lb towing capacity, is brand new and substantially cheaper than a low mileage LC200?

 

[Nothinghead]

Is there a reason I shouldn't go with the 2023 Tundra TRD Pro that has better gas mileage, a 12,000lb towing capacity, is brand new and substantially cheaper than a low mileage LC200?

Apples and organs. Wheelbase differences, fit and finish, exterior appearance, Land Cruiser name cachet, SUV interior space vs pickup bed utility. Everything is a compromise depending on what your combined uses will be. Maybe a 5.7 V-8 will last longer than a turbo V-6 hybrid but this is toyota so you're likely looking at hundreds of thousands of miles in either case.

*edit: Freudian slip that I am leaving in there.

 

[AnyMal]

Is there a reason I shouldn't go with the 2023 Tundra TRD Pro that has better gas mileage, a 12,000lb towing capacity, is brand new and substantially cheaper than a low mileage LC200?

Honestly depending on used LC market, no. Unless you need the cab covered.
The TRD Tundra is better in almost every-way other than just badge, and interior quality, although the second is not exactly what it was last gen either.
The new Tundra is a decade ahead of even the new 300. Never mind a used 200.

You get a better center stack than the LX, a pano roof which neither LC or LX offer, a real no mods necessary off road trim, a luxury interior trim pack, and a hybrid if you should want that. I really like them actually.

 

[artwerks]

I really like the new Tundra. The only thing I really have to consider is having the cab covered for my little (read: huge) dog AND the fact that I'm infatuated with Land Cruisers. The Tundra, ableit great, is NOT a Land Cruiser.

 

[TeCKis300]

As a truck, surely the Tundra will tow better on account of the longer wheelbase.

Wheelbase is an advantage that I secretly love on the 200-series. It gives me a level of agility that no truck will have for gas stations and national parks that were built in a time when smaller trailers existed. I don't worry as much getting into unknown routes even with my larger trailer. With no stability compromises so really, longer wheelbase is only better academically.

 

[AnyMal]

As a truck, surely the Tundra will tow better on account of the longer wheelbase.

Wheelbase is an advantage that I secretly love on the 200-series. It gives me a level of agility that no truck will have for gas stations and national parks that were built in a time when smaller trailers existed. I don't worry as much getting into unknown routes even with my larger trailer. With no stability compromises so really, longer wheelbase is only better academically.

Yes, definitely my preference too. Its nimble af.

I really like the new Tundra. The only thing I really have to consider is having the cab covered for my little (read: huge) dog AND the fact that I'm infatuated with Land Cruisers. The Tundra, ableit great, is NOT a Land Cruiser.

Nothing is an LC except for maybe a G Wagen., but that’s neither here nor there.
The Tundra is at least 80-90% an LC though, specially now with TNFGA or whatever it is chassis and rear 5 link. I really wouldn’t hesitate to get one over a 200 but im not a truck guy. Theres the Sequoia for that purpose too which is essentially the same thing with a canopy.

Don’t forget you also get a much larger gas tank on the Tundra. You could essentially plus size tires and just drive it. Wow what a concept! LOL

 

[hendooman]

You can tow in any gear, so long as the torque converter stays locked up. It's hard to tell if it's locked unless you use an app like OBD Fusion with an OBD2 reader though. Speeds, trailer weight, and trailer aerodynamics all play a role in whether it will stay locked.

If you don't have an app, use S mode and limit yourself to 4th or 6th gear depending on whether you have the 6 or 8 speed. Those are the 1:1 ratio gears and will ensure the torque converter stays locked on normal highway driving.

If you do have the app, start with the above guidance and then you can try one higher gear and watch your torque converter lockup and your transmission temps.

If you tow in your overdrive gears (5/6 or 7/8) and the torque converter does not lock, you will generate a LOT of heat in the transmission. If normal operating temp is 195-200F, expect to run in the 230-240F range in overdrive if the torque converter stays unlocked. Temps above ~240F are typically where fluids start to break varnish, and 260F+ is where they really start to break down. You don't want to stay in those ranges for long, or else you're going to shorten your transmission life considerably (unless perhaps you're doing full fluid exchanges annually... and even then it's not great).

Note I tow in 5th on flat lands in my 6 speed, but I also have 4.88 gears. With stock gears and a 5k # trailer I could not keep the TC locked above 4th.

Now that I've given you the facts, go do whatever you want, it's your rig, not mine, and you can feel free to make use of my experience of 30k+ miles of towing with the LC or not. To me the 0.5mpg difference you'll see when using overdrive while towing isn't worth the wear on a $5000 transmission, but to each their own.

So from your experience towing my 2400 pound bass boat on the highway with a 2019LC, stock gears, 33's, lift...I should stick to 6th gear? I have towed in 8 for a couple years, never more than 100 miles at a time.

 

[linuxgod]

So from your experience towing my 2400 pound bass boat on the highway with a 2019LC, stock gears, 33's, lift...I should stick to 6th gear? I have towed in 8 for a couple years, never more than 100 miles at a time.

I don’t have a boat. my trailer is more rectangular and weights 6000#, so I can’t say what is right for you. The boat is lighter and more aerodynamic, so if you’re in flat roads maybe you can use 7th or 8th?

In my experience my 2013 on 34s with stock gearing it’s hard to hold the top gear without a trailer attached, and impossible with it attached. So my hunch is in 8th you’re running with the torque converter unlocked, but I could be wrong.

I suggest getting a $20 ELM327 Bluetooth OBD2 reader and spending $10 on OBD Fusion with the Toyota PID pack so you can see what the transmission is really doing. You may be surprised.