I NEED these threads to get decent opinions. . . .well maybe not so much on oil or the value of a car, but I ALWAYS enjoy a good tire thread because there is always something I haven't even heard of that I have to think about next!
Tire thoughts wanted
- Thread starter JohnVee
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I'm going to start a thread "What are my tires worth?"
Opinions are like a$$holes, they stink.
For me, the overwhelming deciding factor was my experience in Uwharrie last year. The Cooper ST Maxx was my number 1 choice but CharlestonG8R convinced me that's not what I want. After additional research and the fact that this is a 3rd vehicle for us, we are going with the Nitto Trail Grapplers. They are aggressive tires with the best road manners of a mud terrain. They are very popular with the offroad community and have excellent tread wear. The Trail Grappler comes in a ton of sizes and have been on the market for a few years.
For an AT tire, the KO2 can't be touched. It is simply badass! The KO2 is similar to the legendary KO but better in every way. The KO2 has recently dropped significantly in price. $216 for 315's from 4wp.
For me, the overwhelming deciding factor was my experience in Uwharrie last year. The Cooper ST Maxx was my number 1 choice but CharlestonG8R convinced me that's not what I want. After additional research and the fact that this is a 3rd vehicle for us, we are going with the Nitto Trail Grapplers. They are aggressive tires with the best road manners of a mud terrain. They are very popular with the offroad community and have excellent tread wear. The Trail Grappler comes in a ton of sizes and have been on the market for a few years.
For an AT tire, the KO2 can't be touched. It is simply badass! The KO2 is similar to the legendary KO but better in every way. The KO2 has recently dropped significantly in price. $216 for 315's from 4wp.
Whoa. Rated for >3700 lbs ea. Expedition Portal indicates that specialized equipment is required for installation on non-split rims. Anyone have any further info on these?
Talk about zero sidewall flex.
Run them at zero psi, pretty cool. But this is the problem with boring conference calls, when all I hear is "Buehler, Buehler......" Started out with I need a better boonie hat, Google got me to a camel trophy store, then YouTube to camel trophy videos, then why are their tries so skinny, and why they spin so much? Then what size tires they run, to Michellin site, where to buy them, eBay Chinese knockoffs, and now to you all! That was all in 15 mins or so. By the way, apparently Sears can get them for $225 or $250 each, the real ones not the Yellow Fever or whatever these other ones are. Camel Trophy tires, pretty cool. Maybe next set for me
I'm looking for a wide brim boonie hat that isn't made in China and made of nyco.
none yet, will look at ArmyNavy surplus next week, back to tires, get them manly ones!
I like those tires alot, Izzy!
I am a big fan of my regular old Columbia cotton boonie hat. I'm not hard to please when it comes to hats though. Mine gets filthy. I throw it in the wash with my regular clothes and even in the dryer and it comes out clean and smelling nice. Been washed at least 20 times and no noticeable wear. The brim is flimsy so I can fold it in half and shove it in my back pocket. Hard to beat IMO.
I am a big fan of my regular old Columbia cotton boonie hat. I'm not hard to please when it comes to hats though. Mine gets filthy. I throw it in the wash with my regular clothes and even in the dryer and it comes out clean and smelling nice. Been washed at least 20 times and no noticeable wear. The brim is flimsy so I can fold it in half and shove it in my back pocket. Hard to beat IMO.
John, Tire Rack has 255/85 R16 BFG KM2s in stock $234 each, with $70 rebate on 4 BFG tires. No as tall as the XLZ but skinny profiles which according to this: Expeditions West: Tire Selection for Expedition Travel may be advantageous for mountain terrain, but would suck at Portsmouth trip.
Columbia Bora Bora™ Booney II, $22.50 at Amazon looking good. Nylon Poly. Not sure what Nyco material is, I did know a guy with that name once, loved sawed off trench guns.
EDIT: after reading more about the Expeditions West article, I am not so sure of what the claims are. I did my postgrad work on Amonton's particle principles, I know it was mostly theoretical particle stuff, but somethings they say didn't quite make sense. I will think experience in real life with different situations is just as valuable. If a tire is pushing on gravel with 4000 lbs or 4200lbs per SQIN, I think its irrelevant as the gravel interlocks at much lower pressure and the shearing wont be affected. Okay, too much coffee this morning.
Columbia Bora Bora™ Booney II, $22.50 at Amazon looking good. Nylon Poly. Not sure what Nyco material is, I did know a guy with that name once, loved sawed off trench guns.
EDIT: after reading more about the Expeditions West article, I am not so sure of what the claims are. I did my postgrad work on Amonton's particle principles, I know it was mostly theoretical particle stuff, but somethings they say didn't quite make sense. I will think experience in real life with different situations is just as valuable. If a tire is pushing on gravel with 4000 lbs or 4200lbs per SQIN, I think its irrelevant as the gravel interlocks at much lower pressure and the shearing wont be affected. Okay, too much coffee this morning.
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Supposedly, BFG had discontinued that size ... Maybe enough folks bitched that they brought it back ...
If you keep your eyes peeled, the best boonie hat ever is somewhere out in UNF. I had it for years and years then lost it during the work day for the meet and great. Unfortunately, due to the years of use in sun and salt and rain, it had faded otu to the exact indeterminate color of all things on a forest floor and is nigh-on invisible.
I am still in mourning
Here are some opinions on width from some people who know.
In classic fashion, I have, of course, cherry-picked points-of-view that support my own and entirely discounted any data that may refute my own belief that narrow is better.
http://www.landcruisingadventure.com/car-tires/
"'Although rolling resistance becomes less important than aerodynamic drag at high speeds, it’s still worth considering. That one mile per gallon I gained on my FJ40 made up for the exact same amount I lost when I switched from BFG All-Terrains to BFG Mud-Terrains on that vehicle. Long experience with various tread types has led me to the conclusion that there’s not a big mileage difference between street/trail tread patterns such as BFG’s Rugged Terrain and the slightly more aggressive All-Terrain—but jumping to a Mud-Terrain you’ll take a quantifiable hit. So if you put mud-pattern tires on your vehicle just because you like the look, think again. You’ll get better mileage, better handling, a better ride, and longer tread life with an all-terrain pattern, probably equivalent traction in most circumstances, and better in some.
What about tire width? Wider tires certainly increase frontal area and drag, but I’ve never seen an authoritative study to determine if a wide but short contact patch produces more rolling resistance than a longer, narrower one. You’d need to determine loading per square inch, hysteresis of the carcass, heat buildup, and other factors to make a solid judgement. With that said, I believe narrower tires offer advantages in so many other areas that I invariably stick with unfashionably skinny sizes. I just spent two weeks in Egypt’s sand seas in gargantuan Land Cruiser Troopies riding on pizza-cutter 235/85x16 All-Terrains, and we were never more than nominally stuck despite running near-street pressure in areas mined with the razor-sharp limestone outcroppings called kharafish. "
In classic fashion, I have, of course, cherry-picked points-of-view that support my own and entirely discounted any data that may refute my own belief that narrow is better.
http://www.landcruisingadventure.com/car-tires/
"'Although rolling resistance becomes less important than aerodynamic drag at high speeds, it’s still worth considering. That one mile per gallon I gained on my FJ40 made up for the exact same amount I lost when I switched from BFG All-Terrains to BFG Mud-Terrains on that vehicle. Long experience with various tread types has led me to the conclusion that there’s not a big mileage difference between street/trail tread patterns such as BFG’s Rugged Terrain and the slightly more aggressive All-Terrain—but jumping to a Mud-Terrain you’ll take a quantifiable hit. So if you put mud-pattern tires on your vehicle just because you like the look, think again. You’ll get better mileage, better handling, a better ride, and longer tread life with an all-terrain pattern, probably equivalent traction in most circumstances, and better in some.
What about tire width? Wider tires certainly increase frontal area and drag, but I’ve never seen an authoritative study to determine if a wide but short contact patch produces more rolling resistance than a longer, narrower one. You’d need to determine loading per square inch, hysteresis of the carcass, heat buildup, and other factors to make a solid judgement. With that said, I believe narrower tires offer advantages in so many other areas that I invariably stick with unfashionably skinny sizes. I just spent two weeks in Egypt’s sand seas in gargantuan Land Cruiser Troopies riding on pizza-cutter 235/85x16 All-Terrains, and we were never more than nominally stuck despite running near-street pressure in areas mined with the razor-sharp limestone outcroppings called kharafish. "
Not sure we can use behavior of gas particles here for anything other than the relative increase in temperature and therefor pressure inside the tire during operation.
I think the PSI at the footprint does matter, in that a higher PSI will cause greater material deformation and enhance any mechanical keying that happens as a result.
As far as the comment about shearing, we have two separate materials that can lead to traction failure due to shear loading. The rubber itself, or the substrate on which you are travelling. When you mention gravel specifically I think that footprint and its subsequent applied pressure matters a lot.
As a thought exercise I'll try to examine it from two extremes: Picture a perfectly level clay roadbed covered with ball bearings (perfect gravel?). I have objects of identical large mass that must be pushed against for us to move. One of them has all its mass pressing on a single ball bearing (skinny tire)while the other is spread over a massive flat sheet (big fat tire).
In this scenario, both objects exert the same down force, but have extreme difference in the pressures of their footprints. If I push on the point-loaded object, the bearing will have keyed in heavily with the clay substrate to resist the shear loading. It will stay still and allow me to propel myself. The other will glide away as the bearings all roll around on top of the clay because the great reduction in pressure means they don't really lock in.
This exercise only cover shearing of a gravelly substrate, and doesn't factor in other tire variable such a rubber deformation and the keying between the tire and the substrate, but I have probably taken this thread down a path that will glaze many an eye, so I'll stop now.
Owwwwww. Painful memories of e school. 
- Thread starter
- #58
So is an AK47. Or did it ever turn up?
So in summary to date:
1. Still looking for the perfect tire
2. Don't agree on the physics behind wide vs narrow
3. Can't find a good USA-made boonie cap
< two weeks out to LR - we need answers . . . lets get to work here
1. Still looking for the perfect tire
2. Don't agree on the physics behind wide vs narrow
3. Can't find a good USA-made boonie cap
< two weeks out to LR - we need answers . . . lets get to work here
Science, ruining everything since 1543....
The problem for me is that Amonton's principle kicks in, friction based on normal force and coefficients go out the door when the micro particles deform, interact, lock in, etc. The air pressure of the tire is less critical, as the interface is the durometer value of the rubber and the strata. And the hamburger I had for lunch doesn't add much weight to the vehicle to make difference, the traction is already maxed for the condition. My only testing was with coupons in a lab environment using Instron, and different materials clamped with known force with and without interface asperities.
I still think someone should buy the XZL so we can check them puppies out. Just dont drive like the Stig with them. Ordered the civilian booney hat. Amazon will have it here Sunday... what a country.
The problem for me is that Amonton's principle kicks in, friction based on normal force and coefficients go out the door when the micro particles deform, interact, lock in, etc. The air pressure of the tire is less critical, as the interface is the durometer value of the rubber and the strata. And the hamburger I had for lunch doesn't add much weight to the vehicle to make difference, the traction is already maxed for the condition. My only testing was with coupons in a lab environment using Instron, and different materials clamped with known force with and without interface asperities.
I still think someone should buy the XZL so we can check them puppies out. Just dont drive like the Stig with them. Ordered the civilian booney hat. Amazon will have it here Sunday... what a country.