This is probably going to be very unliked, but this is just like my opinion man. This is my issue with the LC250 (2 Viewers)

[jayp2]

70 just got redesigned in 2023/2024. Absolutely zero chance they come in to the US. You've got an HZJ77 per your signature, only way to get the 70s is to import one that's 25 years old.

The 70s in Oz and around the globe are just as expensive as the GX550 and new 250. They'd sell like absolute dog s***e in the USA.

Vinyl seats, manuals, no diesel (toyota is never bringing their diesels in, let's get real), like riding a covered wagon.

The 70 isn't made for US roads/trails/etc. American's are too stupid to realize it's not always a race to get somewhere.

You've got no empirical evidence to support the notion they wouldnt sell.

In AU they start at 80k AUD and they're currently getting inflated prices due to several year back log in avail.

Thats for a diesel which would be approx 5-8k more than a gasser here in the US.

Adjusted for exchange rate thats closer to 48k

The haters keep on saying it wouldnt sell in the US but historical sales of 40's and 60's combined with over 2000 CURRENT sales of Jeeps and Bronco's every month for years on end say you're dead to nuts wrong.

If Toyota brought in a US varient of the 70 with minor changes to compete with Jeep/Bronco it would sell every single one they made and have waiting lists of buyers waiting to pick one up

 

[prwillard2]

You've got no empirical evidence to support the notion they wouldnt sell.

In AU they start at 80k AUD and they're currently getting inflated prices due to several year back log in avail.

Thats for a diesel which would be approx 5-8k more than a gasser here in the US.

Adjusted for exchange rate thats closer to 48k

The haters keep on saying it wouldnt sell in the US but historical sales of 40's and 60's combined with over 2000 CURRENT sales of Jeeps and Bronco's every month for years on end say you're dead to nuts wrong.

If Toyota brought in a US varient of the 70 with minor changes to compete with Jeep/Bronco it would sell every single one they made and have waiting lists of buyers waiting to pick one up

And you've got no evidence to say they *would* sell.

You cannot bring a 70 series to the US with "minor changes". Does not meet DOT or safety requirements. Would require an entire holistic redesign.

This isn't the forum or thread to be debating the viability of the 70 series in the US, so my apologies for derailing this thread.

 

[Rednexus]

It's gonna make a great offroad rig for someone this year. Custom lx600 builds! - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/custom-lx600-builds.1326108/post-15415683

View attachment 3604370

Glad you are doing that and will have to follow your build! Will be an amazing rig for sure. Maybe I'll get one in 10-15 years .

 

[dbbowen]

You're also not going to get a solid front axle vehicle out of Mr T

If Toyota's goal was to sell more vehicles then they would be offering something to compete with the 2000 vehicles that Jeep and Ford sell every single month and have for years on end.

The LC doesnt even fit into the GR offerings for enthusiasts.....

Suffice it to say.....the motivation behind the LC250 offering is at best unclear.....

yeah i cant explain the motivation behind it. The 4runner is optioned better.

and those people buy new Lexuses...it all makes perfect sense

hahaha idc how much money i make in my life time. Im not an apres person

1) in snow a part-time 4wd system gets worse traction than a full time system. When you go around a corner, a parttime system has more wheel slip than a full time system due to the fact that the front and rear driveshafts must turn at the same speed while the front and rear of the vehicle take different length paths around the corner.

if you want a Torsen system to behave like a part time system, you just lock it and now the front and rear driveshafts turn at the same speed.

2) when it snows around here you are often changing from snow covered to wet pavement to dry pavement and back. A full time system seamlessly handles those changing conditions with no need to shift into or out of 4wd.

3) in rainy conditions a full time system has excellent traction. In a part time system you are in RWD during rain and thus have less traction.

4) yes, I drifted RWD cars in the snow on public roads when I was an irresponsible teenager. I’m no longer an irresponsible teenager and no longer do irresponsible things on public roads. Furthermore, drifting a RWD sports car with a manual transmission is a far different prospect than drifting a top-heavy, 5,000 lb, SUV with an automatic transmission— you can’t just depress the clutch.

In real world application, my 60 series drives signifigantly better than my wifes 100 series in the snow. Its probably the tires (MT vs AT) but everyone says siped ATs are better for snow than MTs so who knows. In the rain theres no descernable difference tbh. We literally drive both back to back in the same day in both conditions. The 60 is noticably better in the snow. Straight up ice? They act the same. I know how a torsen diff works. I have one.

I get the changing from snow to wet pavement thing. Its a slight inconvenience on the last few melty days of snow but still kind of not an inconvenience to me. In the rain, ive never felt a discernable difference between the two cruisers. Ive never lost traction in the rain in either. The 100 does feel like it has slight understeer though. Especially in the snow

dude do you like to tell people stories about bridges? we get it, you dont like fun. I drift on tracks in a drift car, and in the snow in my 60. My state literally has thousands of miles of public land and roads. Maybe im an irresponsible teenager. The fact that the 60 series is a top heavy suv is what makes drifting it fun. It was originally a manual and you can 100% clutch kick it... because it has a clutch... Its got an LS and auto now so you can just power over into drifts since it doesnt have a clutch anymore. Ironically my drift car had a torsen lsd. It sucked too.

My 200 was my first experience driving a full time 4WD vehicle and I definitely felt the improvement of it in the rain versus any RWD vehicle I previously owned. Just more planted, less washout. Tires make a big difference here as well but having had Wildpeak AT3W’s on my current 200 and my previous 4R I would still give the edge in rain and snow handling to the one with full time 4WD. Also if you’re drifting anywhere outside of a track or some type of closed trail or course you’re a moron.

I cant really tell a difference in the rain besides the 100 has understeer in the snow and you can feel it trying in the wet but it never loses traction. My wifes 100 has siped Cooper at3 XLTs and i have yoko geolandar MTs on my 60 (in the below pic they are toyo MTs). Ive never lost traction with either... and i live in the wet PNW.

We excel in moron activities out here. People are going to go have fun no matter how badly you dont want them to

This pic was in our cities main newspaper during a snow event....

Niche but Grenadier?

My family has been in toyotas since the 1970s.

 

[jayp2]

And you've got no evidence to say they *would* sell.

You cannot bring a 70 series to the US with "minor changes". Does not meet DOT or safety requirements. Would require an entire holistic redesign.

This isn't the forum or thread to be debating the viability of the 70 series in the US, so my apologies for derailing this thread.

Except for the fact that Jeep and Ford sell combined 2000 units every single damn month and have done so for years......

To say there's no demand for vehicles in that segment is absurd

 

[jerryb]

in before the lock

how bad is the ford explorer? you know there's 3 rows and a 3.5L V6 RWD
wife decided, dump the ls460 and get the last GX worth anything. BY the time I"m proven wrong it won't matter. I'll be in my 60's

 

[TheLCProject]

Also, what's kind of interesting is that since Toyota doesn't really produce models according to actual demand and only in accordance with their anticipated or projected demand, suggesting that Toyota vehicle sales are indicative of demand seems possibly inaccurate.

You saw it with the planned production percentages on the GX of different grades. Toyota/Lexus has that all modeled and planned. The same will be true for LC and 4Runner. They think they know what the market wants. How much they tweak production based on actual demand would be interesting to study.


For example, on the FJ cruiser, did they think they'd hit 55k units in the US per year for the full model run (through 2014/5) but then saw actual demand wither away and so they tapered production down to 30k or a transitional year and then 15k for the remainder of the run? Or did they have this production in mind all along and are just executing their plan that's cooked up years in advance.

 

[elbarto]

1) in snow a part-time 4wd system gets worse traction than a full time system. When you go around a corner, a parttime system has more wheel slip than a full time system due to the fact that the front and rear driveshafts must turn at the same speed while the front and rear of the vehicle take different length paths around the corner.

if you want a Torsen system to behave like a part time system, you just lock it and now the front and rear driveshafts turn at the same speed.

2) when it snows around here you are often changing from snow covered to wet pavement to dry pavement and back. A full time system seamlessly handles those changing conditions with no need to shift into or out of 4wd.

3) in rainy conditions a full time system has excellent traction. In a part time system you are in RWD during rain and thus have less traction.

4) yes, I drifted RWD cars in the snow on public roads when I was an irresponsible teenager. I’m no longer an irresponsible teenager and no longer do irresponsible things on public roads. Furthermore, drifting a RWD sports car with a manual transmission is a far different prospect than drifting a top-heavy, 5,000 lb, SUV with an automatic transmission— you can’t just depress the clutch.

This, 100%.
Full time AWD / 4WD is just so much better in mixed conditions since you don’t have to think about “hmm is it time to switch to 4WD” , don’t have to take it out of 4WD to park (because drivetrain bind), as you said you don’t get the induced slip when cornering. Added benefit is up have 4 wheels of traction even when you don’t think you need it (black ice, evasive maneuvers in the rain, etc.)


Nobody can tell me you can’t do donuts / drift in the snow with AWD…that’s the best time for it! That said, I agree the 5000lb+ top heavy SUV maybe isn’t the best option.

 

[dbbowen]

Also, what's kind of interesting is that since Toyota doesn't really produce models according to actual demand and only in accordance with their anticipated or projected demand, suggesting that Toyota vehicle sales are indicative of demand seems possibly inaccurate.

You saw it with the planned production percentages on the GX of different grades. Toyota/Lexus has that all modeled and planned. The same will be true for LC and 4Runner. They think they know what the market wants. How much they tweak production based on actual demand would be interesting to study.


For example, on the FJ cruiser, did they think they'd hit 55k units in the US per year for the full model run (through 2014/5) but then saw actual demand wither away and so they tapered production down to 30k or a transitional year and then 15k for the remainder of the run? Or did they have this production in mind all along and are just executing their plan that's cooked up years in advance.

View attachment 3604469


Land Cruiser for reference.

View attachment 3604477

woof. the 2008 housing market crash decimated the fj cruiser

This, 100%.
Full time AWD / 4WD is just so much better in mixed conditions since you don’t have to think about “hmm is it time to switch to 4WD” , don’t have to take it out of 4WD to park (because drivetrain bind), as you said you don’t get the induced slip when cornering. Added benefit is up have 4 wheels of traction even when you don’t think you need it (black ice, evasive maneuvers in the rain, etc.)


Nobody can tell me you can’t do donuts / drift in the snow with AWD…that’s the best time for it! That said, I agree the 5000lb+ top heavy SUV maybe isn’t the best option.

unless your front rear and center are locked you arent getting 4 wheels of traction in the full time system

Those wagons have very very little angle. That looks like a controlled understeer. They are also using wayyyy more power than a rwd would need to slide in the snow. In a rwd car on the snow after you initiate, you can maintain drift at like 2k rpm. That doesnt really look like much fun. Thats just like saying you cant do donuts in a fwd car and sending a video of a civic doing donuts in reverse lol.

Also, do we live in a time now where pulling a lever is really that much of a hassle? Did someone tell you that you cant park your car while you are in 4wd?

Its also pretty wild that ive had to reply like 4 times to people telling me to like something i dont... even when i own a vehicle that has both systems and use them daily. Internet internetting pretty good today. me drive both system in snow on same day. part time work better. I like part time better. idk how else to simplify it

 

[elbarto]

unless your front rear and center are locked you arent getting 4 wheels of traction in the full time system

Those wagons have very very little angle. That looks like a controlled understeer. They are also using wayyyy more power than a rwd would need to slide in the snow. In a rwd car on the snow after you initiate, you can maintain drift at like 2k rpm. That doesnt really look like much fun. Thats just like saying you cant do donuts in a fwd car and sending a video of a civic doing donuts in reverse lol.

Also, do we live in a time now where pulling a lever is really that much of a hassle? Did someone tell you that you cant park your car while you are in 4wd?

Its also pretty wild that ive had to reply like 4 times to people telling me to like something i dont... even when i own a vehicle that has both systems and use them daily. Internet internetting pretty good today. me drive both system in snow on same day. part time work better. I like part time better. idk how else to simplify it

In a torsen center diff AWD with normal 50/50 bias driving down a straight road, each wheel gets equal torque. It changes the bias as you are driving dynamically when cornering, accelerating hard, etc. the open f / r diffs also change the amount of torque sent to each wheel (open sends more torque to wheel with least resistance). If you want equal torque at each corner, lock your center diff and front and rear axles…but that is not ideal for driving in the snow.

Yes it requires more power to break traction. That’s the point. Yes, it understeers…it’s a nose heavy Audi. If you just want to take a rwd in the snow, crank the wheels and mash the throttle and do donuts that way…sure, that’s fun too.

My truck (ram 2500) has a good ol fashioned lever on the floor for the transfer case. The truck binds and bucks like crazy when parking (high steering angle) in 4WD even when there is still snow and ice on the pavement.

I get it, you don’t like AWD for some reason. But it is objectively better for winter driving.

 

[jerryb]

they just need to go drive a carrera 4 and a GT3 on the track and let us know which one was more fun. FTM roads in houston work to.
LC100 is way more fun part time.

 

[Phillyd2]

Along with AC Campers and third row needing soccer coaches we now need to cater to those who want to snow drift their SUV? No wonder at all that we got what we got.

 

[dbbowen]

In a torsen center diff AWD with normal 50/50 bias driving down a straight road, each wheel gets equal torque. It changes the bias as you are driving dynamically when cornering, accelerating hard, etc. the open f / r diffs also change the amount of torque sent to each wheel (open sends more torque to wheel with least resistance). If you want equal torque at each corner, lock your center diff and front and rear axles…but that is not ideal for driving in the snow.

Yes it requires more power to break traction. That’s the point. Yes, it understeers…it’s a nose heavy Audi. If you just want to take a rwd in the snow, crank the wheels and mash the throttle and do donuts that way…sure, that’s fun too.

My truck (ram 2500) has a good ol fashioned lever on the floor for the transfer case. The truck binds and bucks like crazy when parking (high steering angle) in 4WD even when there is still snow and ice on the pavement.

I get it, you don’t like AWD for some reason. But it is objectively better for winter driving.

i get how diffs work.

arent all F/R cars nose heavy

What you just described is called power over. It is how you have to drift an auto in the snow. If you are still manual, clutch kick reigns supreme. Im not talking about doing donuts here. Im talking about linking multiple controlled oversteers together in different directions.

I drove a power wagon back in 2020. I never once had that experience. I parked it in 4wd front and rear diffs locked literally all the time. It had the 6.4L gas motor though so maybe its different if youre diesel.

I have had multiple awd cars and trucks. The part time setups ive had have always just worked better. The same year that i posted that picture of towing the snowboard earlier, i pulled out a total of 8 subarus, an ambulance, a 20 foot box truck, and a food truck. With a part time fj60 with a 2f. Thats just like my experience with it.

they just need to go drive a carrera 4 and a GT3 on the track and let us know which one was more fun. FTM roads in houston work to.
LC100 is way more fun part time.

see thats where we differ. Id rather drive a Toyota Chaser Tourer V on a track in Ebisu. That would be infinitely more fun to me than a porsche. Different strokes

Along with AC Campers and third row needing soccer coaches we now need to cater to those who want to snow drift their SUV? No wonder at all that we got what we got.

what?

 

[elbarto]

^^my ram 2500 is a power wagon, so yeah same 6.4 Hemi. Can only lock front and rear diffs in 4Lo*, but only ever use those offroad

 

[TheLCProject]

I added a few more figures above. Take a look.

Nearly an equal amount of Land Cruiser sales from 20 and 21 went to LX sales in 23 - this shows essentially the same type of folks were buying new LCs vs LXs. In the absence of the LC they bought an LX.

It's pretty clear that at the time Toyota decided to pull away from the off-road market was the precise moment that Wrangler ramped up another 100k units by offering the 4dr Wrangler (starting in 2007). They've (Jeep) given up those sales to an even more aggressively off-road competitor (Bronco). Meanwhile, Toyota removed the FJ Cruiser and then the Land Cruiser from the market. Hopefully they can catch up.

It's pretty freaking clear that Land Cruiser sales were not low in the US due to lack of demand of a more utilitarian off-roader at a reasonable price. The other manufacturers (Jeep and Ford) clearly saw this and took advantage of it at the same time Toyota recoiled. It's also obvious that the demand was relatively low, in comparison, to a heavily upgraded and bloated off-roader (let alone two - LX and LC) at a nearly $80-$100k price point.

 

[Rednexus]

Companies do abandon markets all the time. I've seen companies I've worked at do the same thing - for example trying to walk away from oil and gas as it's not climate-friendly. Or abandoning a core business to focus on something new and exciting, Sometimes it works out, sometimes it does not.

I'm just glad there are enough used Toyota SUVs on the market - for the foreseeable future if not the rest of my life - to fill whatever demand I may personal have. I'd personally never drop $$$$ on a new one to scratch and dent in the woods.

 

[Phillyd2]

The LX is a strange product. Functionally - it's a highlander with less useful interior and worse highway manners. It serves no purpose as it is sold in the USA to me other than conspicuous consumption. Technically somewhere under that 7 inches of ground clearance and compact SUV size interior is the bones of an adventuremobile. But it isn't really anything like what I think of as core Land Cruiser. They're practically never used for it during the first 10 years of life. It's cool that it exists. But it's not a product that does anything very well. Out fo the box it's roughly on par with a Rav4 Adventure. And it really doesn't do what I think of as Land Cruiser stuff very well.

Agreed. It has the bones to be something else but wasn't. The GX550 on the other hand will be a worthy build.

That said, it looks nice.

 

[TexasHusker]

The LX is a strange product. Functionally - it's a highlander with less useful interior and worse highway manners. It serves no purpose as it is sold in the USA to me other than conspicuous consumption. Technically somewhere under that 7 inches of ground clearance and compact SUV size interior is the bones of an adventuremobile. But it isn't really anything like what I think of as core Land Cruiser. They're practically never used for it during the first 10 years of life. It's cool that it exists. But it's not a product that does anything very well. Out fo the box it's roughly on par with a Rav4 Adventure. And it really doesn't do what I think of as Land Cruiser stuff very well.

I think you might be thinking about the TX. It's the Lexus version of the Highlander. I still own a LC 200 and the LX 600. The 600 reminds me of our previous Range Rover Sport more than anything. Feels like a solid truck to me, much more refined than my 200. If I had to sell one of them (price disregarded), it would be very difficult decision.

 

[TexasHusker]

in before the lock

how bad is the ford explorer? you know there's 3 rows and a 3.5L V6 RWD
wife decided, dump the ls460 and get the last GX worth anything. BY the time I"m proven wrong it won't matter. I'll be in my 60's

I rented a Ford Explorer from Hertz just last week in Nashville. It had 40K on the odometer. It was a rattle trap with a lot of weird and annoying characteristics. For one, every time you stop, there is some sort of brake that holds the vehicle. When you press the accelerator, it lurches. That's dangerous. The dash rattles and vibrates and we were not able to get it to stop. The differential was humming so loud that we couldn't use the car phone nor listen to music without turning it up significantly. I was shocked at all of this from a $40K car.

No thanks.

 

[peneumbra2]

This is just like my opinion. I really love Land cruisers and what not. Feel free to disagree or hate it.


Ok with the release of the new 4runner yesterday i finally figured out why i dislike the LC250 so much.

The LC250 and new 4runner are on the same chassis, running the same motor and drivetrain. There is nothing besides aesthetics that separate them from each other. On the GX550 you at least get the larger turbo v6.

say what you will about the motor choices on all of these new vehicles. It is what it is in this day and age. We are not going to ever get a diesel here, the days of v8s are over, and NA vehicles are all pretty much going the way of the do do. Nothing you can do about it. This isnt about the powerplant.

Honestly i even really like how the round headlight 250 looks. Kinda looks like a 60 series if you are drunk. I dig it.

What i dont understand is why toyota would release two suvs of the same dimensions, chassis, and motor... both made in japan... to compete against each other in the US. Of course the vast majority of people buying these things arent enthusiasts, they arent super into wheeling, or anything like that. Theyre just NPC car owners. Most women aged 20-30 i know drive a 4runner of some sort. They are good reliable vehicles and are a good choice for a suv for normal folks.

So, knowing that normal folks are the people buying the 4runner, why not release the new 4runner EXACTLY how they released it, same models trims and all. Have the offroady trims like the trd pro and trail hunter or whatever for people newer to 4wheeling, looking for a more comfortable daily driver style car to do car camping and what not, or even just to look like they offroad but just drive it to work and never go offroad. Even for folks to fully build up and wheel. Whatever, that is available for people. Then have the normal folks versions like the SR5 and limited. Great. That is perfect. This has worked for decades. The 4unner is top of its class in sales and all of that. Keep it going toyota.

The LC250 at this point is just kind of there. Its the same thing as the 4runner, but targeted to enthusiasts while offering nothing enthusiasts want. Sure the cloth seat model might be a little cheaper but theres no definitive land cruiser stuff about it besides stick on badging and headlights. The point always brought up is that enthusiasts are such a small segment of the market that they make no impact on overall sales. So why make the LC250 the exact same thing as the 4runner, then confuse the npc car buyers with 2 choices that are essentially the same?

This is all "woulda coulda shoulda" at this point but the real solution would have been this:

Keep the 250's styling based on the 60 series. Keep the body and interior EXACTLY the same. We were never getting a 70 series here. We are never getting diesels here. We were never getting LC with truck beds here. Thats just how it is. Americans seem to want wagons.

So, what they should have done is with the LC250, base the chassis off of the newly released medium wheelbase 70 series and keep the solid front axle. Put the same motor and drivetrain from the new 4runner in it. Keep the same body they designed. Only offer one trim. Cloth seats. Smaller screen. more spartan interior. You still get to have Toyota drive sense with lane departure, pre collision, ABS, all the airbags, VSC, Downhill assist, active traction control, buttons on the steering wheel, etc. But most importantly

Remove crawl control, MTS, Atrac, and any of the Independent front suspension bandaid stuff they add to try and replicate driving a locked live front axle. Fit front and rear lockers as standard, and most importantly put a lower low range transfer case gear in the LC250 compared to the GX550 and the new 4runner. Part time 4wd only. Something low enough to compete with the rubicon wrangler. like a 4:1. You can even make up a name for it for marketing like crawl box if marlin crawler doesnt sue you. Dont even offer it in a manual since theres no manual in the 4runner. If you are someone who really enjoys MTS/Atrac/Crawl control, or think a coil sprung solid front axle is not comfortable enough, boy do i have the car for you.... its called a 4runner. We just released a new one. Get it while its hot. Its bad ass.

Thats it. Solid axle, boxed frame, front and rear lockers, same body... Totally differentiates itself from everything toyota offers. Competes with the rubicon wrangler as a true offroad vehicle except this one doesnt suck. I dont understand why this isnt something that could have been done. Sure we arent going to ever get a 70 series here. But they could have made something completely new with stuff they already had and disrupted the entire market. If you have made it this far, thanks for listening to the ramblings of a millennial LC lover