Thinking of building a garage (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter woytovich
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Looking good, that looks like it will be a nice size, what are some of the details, what all are you using it for, storing other cars, working on the cruiser, other home owner projects (wood working etc?).
Why partition off the shop space? saw dust, other work shop needs?
looks like overall dimensions are 38 x 27? nice thats a decent size, what height are you going with? any overhead storage or anything?
The reason why I ask all of that, is I love an open floor plan in a shop! I know I pauy for it from time to time when I want to paint, or rip down some boards on the saw, but I also enjoy being able to put extra vehicles in the shop when I need, or roll in a few boards or home supplies when I need the space.
I built a 28 x 36 shop, 3 10 x 9 doors and loved it for everything, tractor, lumber storage, motorcycles, landcruiser on the lift...
28 on the gable end, 36 on the face... basically all doors with the 10 x 9's and a 10' wall
but depending on what and where you are building, I was trying to make this shop as big as I could and look as small and residential as possible, I put the lift in the end bay and put scissor trusts on that end to accommodate the height but also not make the building look excessive....
Why partition off the shop space? saw dust, other work shop needs?
looks like overall dimensions are 38 x 27? nice thats a decent size, what height are you going with? any overhead storage or anything?
The reason why I ask all of that, is I love an open floor plan in a shop! I know I pauy for it from time to time when I want to paint, or rip down some boards on the saw, but I also enjoy being able to put extra vehicles in the shop when I need, or roll in a few boards or home supplies when I need the space.
I built a 28 x 36 shop, 3 10 x 9 doors and loved it for everything, tractor, lumber storage, motorcycles, landcruiser on the lift...
28 on the gable end, 36 on the face... basically all doors with the 10 x 9's and a 10' wall
but depending on what and where you are building, I was trying to make this shop as big as I could and look as small and residential as possible, I put the lift in the end bay and put scissor trusts on that end to accommodate the height but also not make the building look excessive....
Mark,
A friend is in the final stages of finishing his shop and he had to deal with similar zoning constraints for his shop. This has turned his dream shop for retirement into a 4+ year ordeal. The years in retirement are short so the loss of 4 years and the stress in dealing with the city (zoning board/inspectors/...) is unreasonable. Based on what I have seen, move to some place where they won't restrict your freedom to build what you want. Then enjoy your freedom without foolish restrictions. Many of my friends have built shops where reasonable zoning criteria was applicable and they had less stress /cost to enjoy their dreams.
Good luck.
Last edited:
1911
chupacabra
If your zoning allows, make the shop portion high enough for a two-post lift, if you ever envision having one. Most of those come in around 12' high or a few inches more, so a 14' roof, at least at the peak, would be ideal.
Good luck with your build in any event.
- Thread starter
- #5
Well, the reason for building the garage now is the unlikelihood of being able to move in the next 10 years. Family issues, wife's work location etc. The plan was to be some place where there already was a garage or it would be easy enough to build one but since the move is not in the cards my long delayed desire for a garage May finally happen.
- Thread starter
- #6
Yes, I will be adjusting the dimensions a little bit to facilitate ease of building. I'm limited to 300 ft per car in the garage area so that's why the dividing wall. My plan though, once final inspections are done would be to open up that wall with sliding or folding doors so I can close off the shop area both to control dirt etc and also to make it easier to heat in the winter. I will go with higher walls and taller doors if I can.
Azca
If there is a harder way - I will find it...
Center the sliding doors so the shop can be driven into or, at least you can use that as an extension of the garage so it is easier to work on the front of the vehicles. Use 8' tall doors, at a minimum, for this so you can move an engine hoist in and out of the space with the engine on it. Do not provide a threshold so you can easily move equipment back and forth.
Now, for the tricky part. Not familiar with the residential codes of NY but, you need to determine if they will consider that shop area an occupiable space. Where I am going with this: A garage attached to a dwelling needs a self closing solid core door. Many jurisdictions require 5/8" type X drywall between the garage and the dwelling or occupiable space. If this is the case, they may not allow the sliding doors.
You will want, at a minimum, 100 amps to feed the building. If you have a welder, table saw, or other outlets for equipment, that can become tricky. While you will never use a welder and a table saw at the same time, the electrical code does not clearly recognize this. There is a section that will allow it but many don't recognize this and force you to calculate the load as if everything in operating at the same time. Causes significantly larger electrical equipment than should be necessary. This also impact your home's electrical service as it will also need to be sized to carry these loads in addition the house load.
Finally, don't go back and modify the structure once approved. If there is a loss, the insurance company can deny your claim. As an example, years ago while working for a city and managing the building inspection and plan review team, there was a condo owner who wanted a security door on his unit. Adding the security door does not require a permit in and of itself but, he had to move a light fixture to make it work. Unfortunately, he did the work incorrectly and the insurance company identified the work without a permit or inspections after there was a fire.
The fire severely damaged his unit and the unit above, with extensive smoke damage for another unit. The insurance company repaired the other two units but would not repair his and then, to add insult to injury, the insurance company sued him for the costs to repair the other two units. Permits are a pain in the butt to obtain however, it is not worth jeopardizing your financial future over time and a few hundred dollars. I have seen people lose everything over this.
Finally, a word on insurance. Do not go with the cheapest insurance company as you get what you pay for. I have worked through hundreds of losses from fires, vehicle damage, and vandalism on the building inspection side. I have had to become an advocate for many property owners with their insurance companies prior to retiring. It can be a god awful fight with some of these cheapo insurance companies. The three I recommend are; State Farm, Farmers, Allstate. I have had significant issues with the lizard, AMFAM, and the company who insures vets.
I have found through personal experience and through many homeowner's claims, that State Farm in particular is very claim friendly and has gone out of their way to assist claimants. Yes, you pay up front for the better coverage but the rates drop significantly the longer you have them. Please note that I am not an insurance agent, don't represent them, have absolutely no affiliation with any of these companies other than being an insured person. I only offer this based upon the many years I worked with losses by homeowners.
Now, for the tricky part. Not familiar with the residential codes of NY but, you need to determine if they will consider that shop area an occupiable space. Where I am going with this: A garage attached to a dwelling needs a self closing solid core door. Many jurisdictions require 5/8" type X drywall between the garage and the dwelling or occupiable space. If this is the case, they may not allow the sliding doors.
You will want, at a minimum, 100 amps to feed the building. If you have a welder, table saw, or other outlets for equipment, that can become tricky. While you will never use a welder and a table saw at the same time, the electrical code does not clearly recognize this. There is a section that will allow it but many don't recognize this and force you to calculate the load as if everything in operating at the same time. Causes significantly larger electrical equipment than should be necessary. This also impact your home's electrical service as it will also need to be sized to carry these loads in addition the house load.
Finally, don't go back and modify the structure once approved. If there is a loss, the insurance company can deny your claim. As an example, years ago while working for a city and managing the building inspection and plan review team, there was a condo owner who wanted a security door on his unit. Adding the security door does not require a permit in and of itself but, he had to move a light fixture to make it work. Unfortunately, he did the work incorrectly and the insurance company identified the work without a permit or inspections after there was a fire.
The fire severely damaged his unit and the unit above, with extensive smoke damage for another unit. The insurance company repaired the other two units but would not repair his and then, to add insult to injury, the insurance company sued him for the costs to repair the other two units. Permits are a pain in the butt to obtain however, it is not worth jeopardizing your financial future over time and a few hundred dollars. I have seen people lose everything over this.
Finally, a word on insurance. Do not go with the cheapest insurance company as you get what you pay for. I have worked through hundreds of losses from fires, vehicle damage, and vandalism on the building inspection side. I have had to become an advocate for many property owners with their insurance companies prior to retiring. It can be a god awful fight with some of these cheapo insurance companies. The three I recommend are; State Farm, Farmers, Allstate. I have had significant issues with the lizard, AMFAM, and the company who insures vets.
I have found through personal experience and through many homeowner's claims, that State Farm in particular is very claim friendly and has gone out of their way to assist claimants. Yes, you pay up front for the better coverage but the rates drop significantly the longer you have them. Please note that I am not an insurance agent, don't represent them, have absolutely no affiliation with any of these companies other than being an insured person. I only offer this based upon the many years I worked with losses by homeowners.
AZCA has a lot of good points, I think I would push for the insurance adjuster to come out on site after the building is complete and walk them through the building. Depending on how the inspectors and eveyone goes through the building, changing the wall might not be up to local code, but might not be against any specific ANSI/NFPA code. It might be a reach here, but I think the Insurance doesn't care if you don't meet local codes as far as paint color, or design style, just that it meets all safety, fire, electrical code and is not a risk or liability... it would be worth contacting the insurance company and negotiating them have a claims adjuster come out to your property and walk them through your changes prior to starting to see what they say.
WV is a lot more tame with an Outbuilding and basically has very few restrictions, so I am not as familiar with all the issues.
Make sure you plan out your electrical drops if you want any extra rough ins for a compressor, welder, work bench outlets, definitely make a difference if they need to run outlets for an inhabitable area vs. a shop location (where they need to be higher).
But you are likely to run a compressor and plasma cutter or a tablesaw and dust collector at the same time.
Also, my wood and metal shops are separate, so there are times my father comes over to use the wood shop while I'm downstairs welding or machining something.Think about your current electrical needs and then consider some expansion on that. You don't have a lot of room, but that initial small welder often evolves into bigger welders over time - and then a plasma cutter... or eventually a plasma table... Woodworking grows from hand tools to a contractor saw to a tablesaw and dust collection. At least plan for some 220V circuits for things and possibly 30A to 60A circuits.
The questions about how you're going to use the space(s) are relevant. When I built my workshop I made it 24' deep. I have a workbench across the front end (at the hoods of the vehicles) and with a vehicle pulled in and the garage door down it is pretty tight - particularly with the K2500. I really should have done 26' or 28' there. I'm not sure what your actual dimensions are in your drawing, but the garage space looks pretty tight just to get around the vehicles much less work on them. As small as that space is, I'd consider a single wider door so that you can at least pull one vehicle into the middle of that space to work on it and still be able to pull two vehicles in side by side as shown for storage.
Height is one of my other regrets. I built my workshop in the late 1990s, before the internet really took off and everyone was posting what they were doing. As such, I sort of felt a vehicle lift was a "professional" item and not something DIYers would ever have at home. Then years later and everyone is posting pictures of their vehicle lifts in their home workshops...
More height also gives you options for storage either up higher on walls or suspended from the ceiling if not an attic or loft space. That can be particularly valuable in a smaller shop without a lot of floor space.
Azca has a lot of good points on insurance. As a Registered Architect, I see similar situations and not just for fire or other damage. I got pulled into one lawsuit where I had designed an addition for a residential project. After construction was completed and everything was inspected, the homeowner removed the stair railing to be open like they had seen in the "Beautiful House" magazines. After a few years, they sold the house. New owners and the pregnant wife tripped on the stairs, fell off the stairs, and lost her baby. Lawsuit. I was cleared in short order after providing the construction documents clearly showing the railings, but the previous owner was sued for non-code compliant alterations resulting in injury or death. Big mess. That was an extreme one, but I've seen other situations where homeowner alterations have resulted in legal issues after selling the house and the new owners had injuries or damage. Issues you cause yourself to yourself (remove the railing and YOU fall) are just your own stupidity. Issues you cause to someone else generally involves lawyers...
I've also seen municipalities that keep an eye on real estate transactions in their jurisdiction for unpermitted work. You may have gotten away with that project to finish the basement or build that addition (or whatever), but now it is showing up in the pictures on the real estate listing and even if everything was done to code (although you can easily run into issues proving that) now they're going after you for permit fees and penalties and you can't close on the sale when you've already closed on the purchase of your new home... God forbid if there are things not done to code and you have to start ripping things out...
Azca
If there is a harder way - I will find it...
In Thousand Oaks CA, they require a building inspection prior to you selling your home. My in-laws had to go back and correct or remove some the improvements they had made over the years. As they were selling the home, that required that they hire contractors. Homeowners, at least in that city, and the state of Arizona are permitted to do their own work but, they must live there for a least a year prior to sale.
Dealing with any department has become increasingly difficult since Covid. Many are not interested in helping you, they want you to bend a knee to them and kiss the ring. I have several that I have had to go to their supervisors, or even higher, when they were mandating work they wanted but was not required by their adopted codes. Luckily, I am now on the MEP side only, and don't have to deal with the architectural reviews and inspections.
Dealing with any department has become increasingly difficult since Covid. Many are not interested in helping you, they want you to bend a knee to them and kiss the ring. I have several that I have had to go to their supervisors, or even higher, when they were mandating work they wanted but was not required by their adopted codes. Luckily, I am now on the MEP side only, and don't have to deal with the architectural reviews and inspections.
- Thread starter
- #11
To answer some of the random things that have been mentioned...
I have a small shed that currently has 220 power. I have a decent size compressor, a 220 welder, a plasma cutter. I don't do much woodworking. I will be the only one working there 99% of the time and certainly can control usage of multiple equipment at the same time. I am restricted as I mentioned in the first post by Town requirements. I also understand that any changes I make after that building passes inspection will likely need to be undone when we finally try to sell the house.
Well I would love to have a lift I never will. I just don't do that much it would make it worth it. Plus I'm not even sure I would be allowed here in this section of my town.
In general my goal is to keep this simple and minimal. Modular so that I can have some flexibility and avoid building lots of infrastructure when it's really not needed for example I will run air hoses where I need to get air rather than plumbing in black pipe.
I have a small shed that currently has 220 power. I have a decent size compressor, a 220 welder, a plasma cutter. I don't do much woodworking. I will be the only one working there 99% of the time and certainly can control usage of multiple equipment at the same time. I am restricted as I mentioned in the first post by Town requirements. I also understand that any changes I make after that building passes inspection will likely need to be undone when we finally try to sell the house.
Well I would love to have a lift I never will. I just don't do that much it would make it worth it. Plus I'm not even sure I would be allowed here in this section of my town.
In general my goal is to keep this simple and minimal. Modular so that I can have some flexibility and avoid building lots of infrastructure when it's really not needed for example I will run air hoses where I need to get air rather than plumbing in black pipe.
From things I have seen, a pre-sale inspection would certainly have benefits. Sort of like taking a used car to a mechanic for a once-over before buying it. There are "home inspectors" but quite often they're in the pocket of the real estate agent and if they find something (or too many things) that ends up killing a sale the agents are less likely to recommend them.
A problem in Pennsylvania is that there are 2,560 municipalities - each in charge of doing their inspections. Not only does that mean that you get different interpretations on projects that may be a block away from each other but in different municipalities, but many of them contract out to third party inspectors who only get paid for certain tasks and answering questions isn't one of them. So you get "submit your plans" from them when answering a simple question would prevent another round of reviews (which they do get paid for).
A problem in Pennsylvania is that there are 2,560 municipalities - each in charge of doing their inspections. Not only does that mean that you get different interpretations on projects that may be a block away from each other but in different municipalities, but many of them contract out to third party inspectors who only get paid for certain tasks and answering questions isn't one of them. So you get "submit your plans" from them when answering a simple question would prevent another round of reviews (which they do get paid for).
Skreddy
SILVER Star
Can you build a pole building? Could side it in normal siding, not metal. That would give you the wide open floor plan without that dividing wall ending up being structural. Easier to remove and rebuild if needed.
- Thread starter
- #14
No, as I said in my initial post, maybe it wasn't clear the way I wrote it, but I am limited to 300 sq ft per car so 600 square ft for the garage/car parking area. I need the dividing wall to section off that space. The entire structure can be no more than 1200 square feet. One of my restrictions is I need to be 10 ft off my property line which makes positioning the building difficult. Attaching it to the house brings other complications such as a 20-ft off of the property line restriction. I live in a suburban neighborhood.
Azca
If there is a harder way - I will find it...
Mount all your receptacle outlets, no matter the voltage, at 50" above finished floor. You will have access to them if you have countertops, benches, or lean plywood or other materials against the wall. Place one or two adjacent to the garage door on the inside. You will be surprised how much you will use them. One receptacle at each door leading to the outside. Plan on at least one, perhaps two, mini-split systems with heat. One for each space.
Lighting, if you will be working on vehicles or tinkering around, is very important. I currently have (6) 4-lamp florescent fixtures, and one 4' LED in my garage and I still don't think it is enough, especially if the garage door is open. Place the lights closer to the perimeter walls so you will get light inside, under, and under the hood of the vehicle. I have though about putting track lights on the ceiling about a foot from the inside wall of the garage so I can aim them on what I am working on under the hood. I have the 4 foot LED on a motion sensor that is centered between the vehicles so it will activate more easily. Nice for security and more light when driving into the garage.
Lighting, if you will be working on vehicles or tinkering around, is very important. I currently have (6) 4-lamp florescent fixtures, and one 4' LED in my garage and I still don't think it is enough, especially if the garage door is open. Place the lights closer to the perimeter walls so you will get light inside, under, and under the hood of the vehicle. I have though about putting track lights on the ceiling about a foot from the inside wall of the garage so I can aim them on what I am working on under the hood. I have the 4 foot LED on a motion sensor that is centered between the vehicles so it will activate more easily. Nice for security and more light when driving into the garage.
are you limited on height, i would want to add lofted storage at least over the back area. staircase would eat up a little bit of floor space but you could be gaining much more with the loft area. i would also want to run water out there for at least a slop sink, nothing fancy but enough to wash up before going back inside the house. sliding divider door i would make wide enough to back a car up through to give a little more room in the front half if needed or use for backing up a truck and unloading equipment, materials or whatever else is going in the back half
- Thread starter
- #17
"In any residence district, a detached garage shall be one (1) story and have only one (1) floor level, shall provide not more than three hundred (300) square feet for each motor vehicle accommodated" The overall external height limit is 20 feet.
I misspoke earlier: I am allowed space for THREE vehicles at 300sf each! With a max overall size of the building at 1200sf. I'm not yet sure if I NEED to partition off the parking space from the shop space.
- Thread starter
- #18
I'm a "lighting guy".... I get it. I'm currently working in a large Shelter Logic canopy where I have a couple of long strings of those outdoor/construction lights (with LED bulbs to control the overall current draw), AND 6 LED (fluorescent-style) fixtures, plus 2 fixtures over the workbench!... it's bright AF in there with everything on.
would they count attic space with a drop down set of stairs as a second floor or are they looking at the second floor as more of an additional level
- Thread starter
- #20
Good question.... my experience with them is that they would err on the side of a restriction. That said I would build as high as possible and add in some overhead storage where possible...
