Builds The "Red Rocket" Troopy (1 Viewer)

[Rigster]

it snowed! much more than we thought, been snowing for the past 2 days straight pretty much. Sadly as of 3 hours ago I think the voltage regulator or something on the troopy is malfunctioning, it occasionally charges at the usual 28.2v but started to drop in voltage to 26v and then 24v then back to 28 and eventually back to 24-25. Not enough juice to start the troopy anymore, had to pushstart it the last time I parked it. Getting down to 4 degrees tonight so I don't think it'll push start... due to that I have resurrected the Zupup

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It is truly a blessing having a backup vehicle when owning a Land Cruiser. Even if it is simply for the wait to order parts from overseas that cannot be easily obtained here.

As far as the electical gremlins, I would say because it is fluctuating, that indicates a poor ground. Back to basics, check and clean all the grounds first. If you have a way to test the voltage regulator, I would do that as well. I really hope it is simply a ground that needs tightening/cleaning.

 

[AirheadNut]

Agreed that it sounds like a bad ground or perhaps loose positive connection somewhere. I had almost identical symptoms a couple of different times, once was from a loose battery terminal, the other time from a fried fusible link.

 

[FJBen]

Clicking starter can be a few things.

Bad contacts (super common on 80 series) replace brushes and plunger and all good.

Bad ground - maybe some corrosion from snow/grime? Take off and clean

Starter solenoid grease sticky when cold - maybe put a hair dryer on the starter solenoid to heat it up and see if that helps?

24v to 12v starter - too much 24v go juice and cold weather causing bigger drag on starter and let the magic smoke out? Possible, you could pull and do a 12v test yourself or take to shop.

 

[LDowney]

The suggestions on your electrical gremlins are absolutely sound and your highest probability hit list.

If you still have an issue after running the prior suggestions down, consider your batteries too. You are dealing with a cold snap which is tough on battery performance. This could cause a weak connection / faltering battery / ... to become a full fledge issue. Charging your batteries and taking them for load testing could be worthwhile to check.

Good luck

 

[Felde]

seems like all electrical on the truck shuts off immediately, until I let off the key

Thst indicates that the voltage instantly collapses once current is drawn.
Can have two causes: a) Draws more current than normal, e.g short circuit. b) Not enough juice available from the batteries, e.g one is shot. Batteries can show normal voltage but actually collapse on load.
Test the batteries, one by one and charge them one by one. Modern chargers diagnose the battery, too. Or put them in your 12V daily driver and see what they do.
Test the starter as suggested.
24V to 12V starter? Guess the solenoid left the chat and causes an internal short circuit.
Good Luck Ralf

 

[theglobb]

Ok well some progress, but still kinda clueless as to what's happening. First I took the batteries to orilleys, they tested and charged them, both charged to full voltage in 10 minutes... they are also only 2 months old. Then I cleaned all my grounds and any electrical connection on the car... still didn't work. Then I pulled the starter and took it to that good ole boy "Jon's Alternator and Starter" 2 minutes down the road from me.

He rebuilt the starter and solenoid back in September for me. Tested the starter, it works fine, opened up the solenoid and everything looked great in there, other than the black buildup on the contacts, he said that was caused due to low voltage... checks out. Jon said he would be amazed if I fried this 12v starter running it off of 24v for the next couple years to come. Especially since I only used it for about a second to start the engine.

He cleaned everything up and slapped it all back together. I put the starter back on and obviously still... no bueno. That then leads me to this:
One of the wires in here leading to the alternator starts to absolutely fry itself and now has no insulation on it if you hold the key in the start position.



I tracked the bundle of wires down to the fusebox underneath the hood, all the fuses look good in it, took them out anyway and cleaned all the contact points with a wirebrush still didn't solve anything.

The last funky thing is even while my batteries under the hood both read 12.7v separately and 27.5v together, my cigarette lighter voltmeter only reads 24.3 on average. Like its somehow losing voltage along the way between the batteries and the cab. So now I'm here, a few possible issues have been eliminated but I'm still pretty clueless on what to do next, all fusible links are fine and fuses check out.

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It is truly a blessing having a backup vehicle when owning a Land Cruiser. Even if it is simply for the wait to order parts from overseas that cannot be easily obtained here.

You are 100% correct! So helpful. Sadly a bearing in the zupups transmission is failing and whining REALLY LOUD. Thought it was the throughout bearing but it definitely isn't. However its the only thing I can drive right now so I guess I'll just be sending it until it blows up or until I can fix the troopy and then rip the trans out of the pup


Would just like to say thank you to everyone for the quick and super-detailed responses to my trouble with the troopy, always amazes me how much awesome info and knowledge y'all have. Even if I don't respond to your exact messages I read them all and really appreciate it

 

[Felde]

Hi
Did you trace down what that frying cable actually is? I wonder if this is actually related to the starter issue, or whether wiggeling around there just caused another problem in the old harness to unfold.

Back to square one.
It was a 'relay in dash clicking-but-nostart' issue, right ?

A starter electric is pretty straight forward;
- Big main positive straight from the battery (no fuse).
- Big main negative via the chassis. Important to have good ground from the engine to the chassis, as the engine mounts isolate. My BJ73 3b even has a separate ground cable straight from the engine to battery negative terminal.
- Small positive, coming from the starter relay, to the solenoid.
- Solenoid negative usually via the housing, engine-/chassis-ground. (Check for a separate negative cable, though)

Guess the solenoid left the chat and causes an internal short circuit.

OK, your expert proofed me wrong on thisone .. Also the main starter motor was tested OK , so it should work with enough main positive in and a good negative back. If the powerlines are really OK, as you said, this shouldn't be the issue. If in doubt, you may use a jumper cable from the starter straight to battery negative to bypass the chassis ground.

Whenever I had a 'clicking-but-nostart' issue, it always was the solenoid positive cable: There is a connector on the 3B between the harness and the solenoid/starter, which usually had a connection failure due to oxidation. It is located quite low on the engine, close to the starter, so gets a lot of water and mud.

- Suggest you to check whether that connector (or the solenoid positive altogether) gets any power on start attempts. It should, if the relay in the dash clicks.
Was probably this the cable that fried?

The last funky thing is even while my batteries under the hood both read 12.7v separately and 27.5v together, my cigarette lighter voltmeter only reads 24.3 on average.

I'd consider this normal, considering the many connectors underway, which are all likely a bit corroded, causing resistance and voltage drop.
Anyways, on start attempts, at least some voltage should make it to the solenoid positiv.
Even if the solenoid positiv line from the relay suffers from a similar problem like your lighter and doesn't transfer full >24V: Being actually designed to be a 12V starter, the solenoid must kick in even with a slightly lower voltage. Anything above 11.8V must trigger the solenoid.

If you suspect any of the dash wireing / fuses / harness in the cab to be the culprit (eg it was the solenoid positive cable that fried), you can bypass those with a jumpercable stright from battery positive to the starter. Put a 10A fuse in this jumpercable! And disconnect the starter main positive!
With the starter main positive disconnected, you should hear the solenoid act (but the starter not turning over).
This exact procedure however actually is what your expert already did in his shop. So, repeating this is actually not to test the solenoid trigger, but to rule out the dash wiring to be the culprit.

Good Luck Ralf.

 

[LDowney]

I had erratic electrical issues with my 70 that indicated ground issues were involved but I could not find a bad ground, so I added grounds. The grounds were effectively equivalent to starter cables in capacity (wire gauge). One grounded the engine block to the frame / another grounded the body to the frame / final grounded the body to the engine block.

Yes, this illustrates that I was shooting blind but it worked. My erratic ground issues ended.

I am not helping you find the smoking gun cause, but this might aid you in getting the truck running.

Final thought, you showed posts where you were welding up corrosion damage in the body a few weeks ago. Did you disconnect the batteries and alternator when you were doing this work? Probably not the cause, but it might have been a contributor.

 

[svsisu]

Have you checked your starter relay? The one tucked up under the driver side hood/inner fender, just aft of the battery? I had a no start issue a few years ago and that was the issue. Enough current was getting through it that I could hear clicking from the starter, but not enough to actually engage it. It would be real easy to pull it out and test it.

But now in addition to a no start, you are making smoke in your harness, Yikes! Old crusty wiring causing some resistance some where in there. Does that only happen when engaging the starter, or if the key is turned to "On"?

Good ol boy electrical shop told me the same thing about using a 12v starter on 24v, he said let it rip, it'll last. Glad yours tested ok and Jon backs that up.

Starter Relay PN here if you need a new one:

Replaced the starter relay... the old one was pretty tired and left me having to push start to get home when I was 2 hrs away. New one installed and the truck fired right up so I went on a beach ride.

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[theglobb]

FIXED @LDowney and many others were correct. Ground issue!

At first I had used an old brass wire brush to clean them, I did what I thought was a pretty through job yesterday but it was 6 degrees and I couldn’t feel my fingers.

As a Hail Mary I whipped out something that’s a bit overkill but it worked lol, ground the ever loving heck out of every metal piece of connection this truck has.

Then sprayed every ground with this, don’t think this solved my problem just figured it couldn’t hurt

Fired right up! Thank you everyone for the help, you were all right from the beginning.

Have you checked your starter relay? The one tucked up under the driver side hood/inner fender, just aft of the battery? I had a no start issue a few years ago and that was the issue. Enough current was getting through it that I could hear clicking from the starter, but not enough to actually engage it. It would be real easy to pull it out and test it.

But now in addition to a no start, you are making smoke in your harness, Yikes! Old crusty wiring causing some resistance some where in there. Does that only happen when engaging the starter, or if the key is turned to "On"?

Good ol boy electrical shop told me the same thing about using a 12v starter on 24v, he said let it rip, it'll last. Glad yours tested ok and Jon backs that up.

Starter Relay PN here if you need a new one:

Lots of good info in here, gonna bookmark this for the future electrical issues I’m bound to have for years to come haha! Thanks

 

[jblueridge]

There is a kind of graphite grease that increases the amount of electrical connection at places like where a bolt clamps a cable to the body.
It takes about 1 microgram of that stuff to make a black greasy mess all over you and the truck.
It does work though.

 

[Felde]

Glad you finally solved it.
Still admiring your endurance.
Cheers Ralf

 

[theglobb]

Well now that I have everyone's helpful minds together I'd like to double-check my thought process on the potential failure of the zupup's transmission.
I was hoping it was the throughout bearing but everything is leaning towards the trans if I'm thinking correctly.

With the engine running and it in neutral, it makes this groaning noise, push the clutch in and it goes away, increases with RPM, also makes the noise throughout all the gears. Now with the engine shut off and just coasting downhill, it doesn't matter if the clutch is depressed or not, it makes the noise along as you have put it into a gear, the only time it goes away is in neutral. This in my mind leads all signs to a bad bearing in the transmission right? Cause with the engine off the only thing spinning would be the rear diff up to the trans. 1st part of the video below shows it in neutral with the engine running, 2nd part of the video is the engine not running but it coasting downhill in gear with the clutch pushed in. If anyone has any thoughts or leads to confirm my thinking I would appreciate it!



and since I haven't attached any images to this post, I have started tig welding. First image is my first time trying it (as you can obviously tell) and the next two are my 2nd time. I am for once pretty impressed with myself and the absurd difference.

 

[svsisu]

Well now that I have everyone's helpful minds together I'd like to double-check my thought process on the potential failure of the zupup's transmission.
I was hoping it was the throughout bearing but everything is leaning towards the trans if I'm thinking correctly.

With the engine running and it in neutral, it makes this groaning noise, push the clutch in and it goes away, increases with RPM, also makes the noise throughout all the gears. Now with the engine shut off and just coasting downhill, it doesn't matter if the clutch is depressed or not, it makes the noise along as you have put it into a gear, the only time it goes away is in neutral. This in my mind leads all signs to a bad bearing in the transmission right? Cause with the engine off the only thing spinning would be the rear diff up to the trans. 1st part of the video below shows it in neutral with the engine running, 2nd part of the video is the engine not running but it coasting downhill in gear with the clutch pushed in. If anyone has any thoughts or leads to confirm my thinking I would appreciate it!



and since I haven't attached any images to this post, I have started tig welding. First image is my first time trying it (as you can obviously tell) and the next two are my 2nd time. I am for once pretty impressed with myself and the absurd difference.
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Sorry, no one here speaks zupup. But it's great that you got the half breed zutroop running. Nice welds too!

And, glad @jblueridge mentioned the conductive electrical grease. That stuff works great, and as mentioned, a little goes a long way. Will work really good on your horn pin when you end up having to replace that. I should be up your way mid Feb and I'll bring you a small tub that will last a life time.

 

[sark]

Well now that I have everyone's helpful minds together I'd like to double-check my thought process on the potential failure of the zupup's transmission.
I was hoping it was the throughout bearing but everything is leaning towards the trans if I'm thinking correctly.

With the engine running and it in neutral, it makes this groaning noise, push the clutch in and it goes away, increases with RPM, also makes the noise throughout all the gears. Now with the engine shut off and just coasting downhill, it doesn't matter if the clutch is depressed or not, it makes the noise along as you have put it into a gear, the only time it goes away is in neutral. This in my mind leads all signs to a bad bearing in the transmission right? Cause with the engine off the only thing spinning would be the rear diff up to the trans. 1st part of the video below shows it in neutral with the engine running, 2nd part of the video is the engine not running but it coasting downhill in gear with the clutch pushed in. If anyone has any thoughts or leads to confirm my thinking I would appreciate it!



and since I haven't attached any images to this post, I have started tig welding. First image is my first time trying it (as you can obviously tell) and the next two are my 2nd time. I am for once pretty impressed with myself and the absurd difference.
View attachment 3536287View attachment 3536290View attachment 3536289

I don't remember if the symptoms were exactly the same, but when your throwout (?) bearing failed on the troopy, I think you were in a similar situation?

 

[theglobb]

Due to the help of everyone with my electrical gremlins, I was able to get out in the snow again! Pulled roughly 20-30 people out today alone (most all out-of-state license plates trying to go skiing) I was worried about the front autolocker I installed and how it would effect my steering in the snow but if anything its just 10x better than than the open diff was, only downside is I have to switch it from 4 to 2 anytime I run into pavement just cause without the snow causing a lack of traction its SOOOO difficult to turn the wheel.

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Sorry, no one here speaks zupup. But it's great that you got the half breed zutroop running. Nice welds too!

And, glad @jblueridge mentioned the conductive electrical grease. That stuff works great, and as mentioned, a little goes a long way. Will work really good on your horn pin when you end up having to replace that. I should be up your way mid Feb and I'll bring you a small tub that will last a life time.

No big deal was just trying to confirm before I rip everything out, replace the clutch and all the bearings, slap it back together and the the issue persists... but that's probably what I'll end up doing lol. If anything, after this summer with the troopy I have gained an immense amount of patience with doing something over and over and over and over again. and thank you for bringing the grease up will be cool to test out.

I don't remember if the symptoms were exactly the same, but when your throwout (?) bearing failed on the troopy, I think you were in a similar situation?

they were similar but happened oppositely. Push the clutch in and the noise would start, doesn't make the noise any other time. This is the noise is constant unless the clutch is pushed in and then it doesn't even matter if the car is moving. I think it's the trans but since I'm a cheapskate I'll throw a new clutch kit in and when the noise persists then start sourcing a new trans. No rebuild kits are available.

 

[robmobile73]

Ok well some progress, but still kinda clueless as to what's happening. First I took the batteries to orilleys, they tested and charged them, both charged to full voltage in 10 minutes... they are also only 2 months old. Then I cleaned all my grounds and any electrical connection on the car... still didn't work. Then I pulled the starter and took it to that good ole boy "Jon's Alternator and Starter" 2 minutes down the road from me.

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He rebuilt the starter and solenoid back in September for me. Tested the starter, it works fine, opened up the solenoid and everything looked great in there, other than the black buildup on the contacts, he said that was caused due to low voltage... checks out. Jon said he would be amazed if I fried this 12v starter running it off of 24v for the next couple years to come. Especially since I only used it for about a second to start the engine.
View attachment 3536060

He cleaned everything up and slapped it all back together. I put the starter back on and obviously still... no bueno. That then leads me to this:
One of the wires in here leading to the alternator starts to absolutely fry itself and now has no insulation on it if you hold the key in the start position.



I tracked the bundle of wires down to the fusebox underneath the hood, all the fuses look good in it, took them out anyway and cleaned all the contact points with a wirebrush still didn't solve anything.
View attachment 3536058View attachment 3536059

The last funky thing is even while my batteries under the hood both read 12.7v separately and 27.5v together, my cigarette lighter voltmeter only reads 24.3 on average. Like its somehow losing voltage along the way between the batteries and the cab. So now I'm here, a few possible issues have been eliminated but I'm still pretty clueless on what to do next, all fusible links are fine and fuses check out.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

You are 100% correct! So helpful. Sadly a bearing in the zupups transmission is failing and whining REALLY LOUD. Thought it was the throughout bearing but it definitely isn't. However its the only thing I can drive right now so I guess I'll just be sending it until it blows up or until I can fix the troopy and then rip the trans out of the pup


Would just like to say thank you to everyone for the quick and super-detailed responses to my trouble with the troopy, always amazes me how much awesome info and knowledge y'all have. Even if I don't respond to your exact messages I read them all and really appreciate it

My 81 isuzu tranny had a bad input bearing on the main shaft. Incredibly expensive to rebuild back then. My dad spent the money and it lasted less than 2 years before it went out. I'm sure we got ripped off by the rebuild shop. Used tranny likely hard to find. Suggest you drive it till it breaks.

 

[Rigster]

It is truly a blessing having a backup vehicle when owning a Land Cruiser. Even if it is simply for the wait to order parts from overseas that cannot be easily obtained here.

As far as the electical gremlins, I would say because it is fluctuating, that indicates a poor ground. Back to basics, check and clean all the grounds first. If you have a way to test the voltage regulator, I would do that as well. I really hope it is simply a ground that needs tightening/cleaning.

I had to laugh at myself today, and decided to note here as well to show that I "practice what I preach" so to speak - I recently acquired a mkV Jetta TDI for cheap that I am getting in good running order. I went to run out yesterday in it and no starter. Not even a click.

Battery tested good.

So today I had time to take things apart and all I did was clean the grounds, and the one power connection to the solenoid with electrical cleaner spray, brush, wipe and dielectric grease.

Glad I did not remove the starter! Always back to basics when a gremlin rears its ugly head.

PS - Jetta diesel is starting like a champ in the cold weather now.

 

[theglobb]

Well it went from 5 to 50f degrees all the snow is starting a mass melt. Can't believe just how many people I yanked out of the snow.

Also on Friday and Saturday night the troopy was the only thing keeping the party/bar scene alive in Boone, seriously I was the only vehicle on the road. That means my usual charge of $4 per person went to $8, money money moneyyyyyy. Drove kids around until about 3am, wish I had one of those interior dashcams cause it would be hilarious to see everyone's reactions being packed 12 deep into a troopy snow wheeling up driveways. Have pretty much no documentation of that night other than 1 photo of me fixing the troopy on the side of the road.

This, along with the grounding issue has become quite an annoying issue. Air in the fuel lines... at first I thought it was my fuel freezing but I got so pissed with it that I just dumped a whole anti-gel bottle into my tank and the issue persisted. Upon startup it will idle fine and rev up fine but under any load it runs horribly and will sometimes just shut off. So now I pop the bleeder screw open on my fuel filter upon start up get all the air out from it sitting and then I'm good to drive it but if it let it sit for more than 4 hours I have to do it again or else air will get back in the fuel system. Obviously some sort of tiny pinhole leak or something in one of the lines, pretty annoying and really hope I don't have to drop the tank to fix it.

To end on a good note here's a video of the red rocket plowing through some snow


And an extremely unhappy cold start at 2f degrees, my extension cord plug froze with ice in the connectors so I couldn't plug it in overnight. Now to give the Isuzu some defense, I don't have a pull cord hooked up to the "cold start enrichment lever" on the IP so that definitely doesn't help. However I do really miss the Toyota "Super Glow" system or whatever it was called. That stuff worked great.

 

[Rigster]

Can't believe just how many people I yanked out of the snow.

Careful now, you are going to elevate the "Red Rocket" into legend status and then people will begin to expect the same every year, then you will have the added stress to keep it running in good order to maintain super-hero status, AND worry about good grades. Good grief!

Seriously though, loving it. Enjoy it... make memories and then regale your grandchildren with all the stories for years to come, then take them for a spin in the legendary "Red Rocket" and you will create some more 70 series lifers.

No SERIOUSLY - DO IT! It happens way faster than you think. Just ask your Dad.