Builds The "Red Rocket" Troopy (4 Viewers)

[Felde]

I'm also following you on YouTube and saw the vid yesterday. Thought it was temporary...
All I can tell is: My 3B in my BJ73 blows almost no black smoke, under no circumstances. I guess your injection / timing / airflow has room for improvement, still. Which also might enhance pep. However I'm not an engine expert and have no idea on HOW to improve. Sorry.
Maybe speak to the PO of the engine on if it has been better when he still had it installed.

 

[LDowney]

Thank you for the peanut gallery. This is where I struggled to find the balance, if its heat that makes my engines life expectancy shorten then adding air (turbo) to make the burn complete would make it a lot less hot, but adding the turbo shortens the life expectancy of the engine even though it would be running cooler. I wouldn't want the troopy any faster. I just want more air in the engine for when I'm at higher altitudes, as I was stuck in 1st, sometimes 2nd gear on every hill I encountered when NA at only 3,000ft.

It wasn't even life in the slow lane, that's how my troopy has always been with a turbo. But without a turbo, I was just a genuine traffic hazard, unsafe for me as well as every other driver on the road up at Appalachian State. I'm used to crawling up hills at 25-30 mph with the turbo but for the brief bit I had no turbo installed it was 1st gear 10mph up a lot of roads, where I was being passed by semis going 65+ just a very vulnerable feeling and would be only a matter of time till someone rear-ends me.

I did have the wastegate wired shut, well actually turnbuckled shut as I thought a wire might stretch over time. And yes, I figured it's a lot more in depth than my very base understanding of whats happening and how it affects different parts of the engine. My turbo itself matches pretty evenly all around for my engine, same family/size of turbo that Gerg uses in his turbo kits he sells.

If I have enough time to spare I may do a test trip to Boone, 3 days, while naturally aspirated and see how it does. I don't think I'll have the time to spare though. Wish there was a place closer that was high in altitude with hills.

The explanation that I offered was based solely on increased working load (stresses) shortening the fatigue life of your engine. The increased heat introduced by a turbo is an additional (harmful) parameter that needs to be considered in plans and actions. However from my perspective, it is very unlikely that heat was a first order contributor the failures sustained to the bottom of your original engine. The most likely first order parameter driving the failures was fatigue.

The performance concerns and limits of operating a 3B powered Troopy on steep grades that you have outlined are valid and reflect what you have developed keen appreciation for based on your experiences. If the only solution that you can tolerate is increasing the power from the 3B via adding a turbo, that is the decision that needs to be made. You will be making the decision with your eyes wide open relative the shortened service life to your 3B that will result from the increased power level that it will need to deliver.

(sorry) Back to the peanut gallery... You had a major cross-country adventure in the Troopy last year. Is there another source of transportation for adventure in 2022 that does not include the Troopy? If so, would the requirements for additional power remain unchanged?

 

[nuclearbeef]

I'm also following you on YouTube and saw the vid yesterday. Thought it was temporary...
All I can tell is: My 3B in my BJ73 blows almost no black smoke, under no circumstances. I guess your injection / timing / airflow has room for improvement, still. Which also might enhance pep. However I'm not an engine expert and have no idea on HOW to improve. Sorry.
Maybe speak to the PO of the engine on if it has been better when he still had it installed.

I’m with Felde. I think some tuning is in order.
When that engine was in the silver Troopy, it made very little black smoke, even at WOT.
You couldn’t see any smoke in the rear view mirror; unless it was night and there were car headlights close behind.
Did you use your injection pump or the one that came on the engine?

 

[Knowbuddy]

Yea, that's always a risk I knew, my head gasket on my old engine was the upgraded MLS one, and lucky enough on my new engine it is the upgraded MLS one as well. Guess the old HG blew out on the poor Swedish sucker before me. And yea... I just don't know/understand the physics behind the fact on if just compressed air alone may damage the engine...

Yea that's what I thought. I had a boost, water temp, and EGT. tuned my prior engine to never go above 1050f on the steepest of hills fully floored, practically no black smoke except on startup, I wanted the most possible life out of that engine and then the crank failed catastrophically.

I will definitely be retarding the timing, just like i did last time... almost tempted to do it even more than I did last time, but I don't know where it would be too much or too far. Might talk with gerg and see what he says.

When you are out here in utah I have a ct26 turbo you can have. It needs a rebuild but it is OEM.

 

[FJBen]

When you are out here in utah I have a ct26 turbo you can have. It needs a rebuild but it is OEM.

I think thats a great offer, but the CT26 is too big for a 3B/13BT. Toyota used the same turbo on the 12HT as the 13BT. It's not a good match at all. The SAAB turbo he has (can't remember the year) is probably a much better sized turbo.

 

[theglobb]

After driving some more I have the 3B tuned correctly, no more black smoke and honestly is a bit faster than when it was running super-rich. Took it on many test drives in the past 2 days just trying to get a feel while naturally aspirated. It's pretty bad on hills, and these aren't even hills, just bridges in my area. Biggest issue with the troopy and inclines is the length of them, if its a relatively short incline I can use my momentum to get over but as soon as that momentum is gone it's a slow struggle, even more so without a turbo. Also not to mention my EGT's!!! I'm sitting right at 1150f at 60mph, crazy high compared to what I was used to with a turbo, feels illegal to me almost haha. Just have to remember that's what this engine has run at for the past 390,000kms at that speed and it's made it this far. I have a feeling the EGTs would be way hotter at higher altitudes on steep inclines. I had 8 people in it today aswell, probably roughly weighed around as much as it will on the trip with people plus gear... took quite a bit of the acceleration away even more so, went over one sight incline and it wasn't impressive to say the least

I'm no expert either, but what @LDowney said above is exactly what the Mechanics of Materials classes I've taken would suggest. I would also add for more specific context, a 3B has a 20:1 compression ratio, a 13B-T is 17.6:1. If you put 15psi boost through your 3B at sea level you are effectively doubling the absolute pressure of air and therefore the mass of air you are putting into the engine. This air must then be compressed further in a 3B than a 13B-T, significantly raising the cylinder pressures and increasing the stresses on the engine internals. This is why most factory turbo engines run lower compression than their NA counterparts, and in addition tend to have larger gudgeon pins, connecting rod and crankshaft bearings, beefier crankshafts and thicker piston crowns.

Doubling the air mass in the engine won't necessarily double the cylinder pressure due to compression and pumping losses, but it will still be a significant increase in the stress the bottom end will see, even without considering the added horsepower the engine will then be making. The math is fairly complicated, but these increased stresses will have a significant impact on the fatigue lifespan of multiple components in the engine, with the crankshaft and crank bearing caps taking the brunt of it. All that said, I think a very mild turbo install (probably less than 10psi) with an aim to counteract power loss at altitude is probably a good idea.

Life in the slow lane is still feasible, even on US interstate highways. These people from Austria stayed at my brother's place for a couple of weeks while repairing some damage from a run-in with a logging truck on a forest service road. They traveled from Montana to the East Coast on the interstate with a tired, ~130hp NA diesel powering their truck. Top speed was around 50-55mph.
View attachment 3049546

Thank you for explaining everything in depth, makes a lot more sense now that I can take a look back and absorb everything that I wasn't thinking about right away with it. I will be using ALOTTT less boost, 8-10psi max, maybe even less. I'll be adjusting on the road as I take on different hills I assume and see what works best at the lowest max psi.

That's an awesome truck, love those old Mercedes diesels almost as much as the Toyota ones.

You had a major cross-country adventure in the Troopy last year. Is there another source of transportation for adventure in 2022 that does not include the Troopy? If so, would the requirements for additional power remain unchanged?

There isn't really, for the amount of people that are going on the trip it fits the troopy perfectly, the troopy is an amazing road trip vehicle size-wise and everything else, just the engine limits it extremely, and No A/C sucks aswell. No one in my friend group has a car big enough or reliable enough to take its place. The requirements would still be the same, since this will be my daily up at app state I think I'll need a turbo to drive around up there aswell. Once I get back from the trip I think I'll try to take the turbo off and drive it at App State while NA to see how it does, I would much prefer no turbo.

I’m with Felde. I think some tuning is in order.
When that engine was in the silver Troopy, it made very little black smoke, even at WOT.
You couldn’t see any smoke in the rear view mirror; unless it was night and there were car headlights close behind.
Did you use your injection pump or the one that came on the engine?

Correct, needed a bit of it. I didn't swap injection pumps as I didn't want to accidentally open up a can of worms trying to do so. Just keep the engine how it was mechanically as when I took it out of your troopy. I wonder what changed to make the engine run different? I hadn't changed/messed with anything on it from the time I took it out to when I put it in my vehicle, odd...

When you are out here in utah I have a ct26 turbo you can have. It needs a rebuild but it is OEM.

Thank you!! Really appreciate the offer but as FJ Ben said it probably wouldn't be the best match compared to my current turbo. Regardless, cant wait to meet up with you while I'm out there.


As usual, thank you to everyone who is offering their advice and opinions on my current dilemma it helps me see all sides of the puzzle

 

[robmobile73]

I suggest you revisit recomendations on IP timing before you re-turbo. If detonation/igintion occurs too soon before TDC it could be too much stress for the rotating assembly..............Mine is still set at factory setting and I'm running 22PSI full load. I can hear a bit of what sounds like "spark knock" in a gas engine/detonation under heavy load.

Your crank cracked/broke. Perhaps someone with greater knowledge could chime in on IP timing with addition of turbo?
Good luck!

 

[lacalvette]

Took all measurements on my 3B, camshaft stil within tolerance but the height of the cam lobe are less than when it was new. Which mean valve doesn’t open as much.
I’m sure a turbo help the 3B to breath.

 

[FJBen]

I would definitely start by setting your timing to factory specs. In theory, if you haven't touched the IP and it ran cool before, then you must have some other issues at play, but it wouldn't hurt to check the timing.


dragging brakes?
drag on driveline (transmission/tcase/diff?)

Weight:
My BJ74 weighs 4600lbs so that troopy is more than that. I've read quite a few different specs, but some of the Aussie guys show gross vehicle weight with payload at 3035kg or 6700lbs for the troopy/pickup.

8 people at 150lbs each = 1200lbs.

With gear you are probably right at max vehicle weight. So we say 7000lbs being pushed by 90hp/160lb at the crank! So thats 0.013 hp/lb Add in bigger tires stealing more power, yeah not surprised at ALL she is slow lol.

Enough of that stating the obvious. The 3B is SLOW and overworked in a loaded troopy. We know that.


The IDI motors tend to be able to run hotter EGT's. Just this weekend, I ran about 950~1050EGT at 5000'~8000' and 65mph up/down hills, 10~15psi If you are running non-turbo, and 2000lbs more weight your EGT's aren't THAT much higher in an engine thats working way harder with less HP.



If you decide to slap the turbo on, for sure do not block the wastegate. Retard the timing a little from factory. Make sure that engine can breathe good from intake to exhaust. Did you check the valve timing on this? Really easy to do.

Personally, I don't think Toyota designed them for a 65~70mph highway burner. In 1988 the US changed the speed limits back to 65mph. (fun worthless fact for the day). I bet at 55, that troopy runs cool even with all that weight. (outside of mountain passes)

 

[Felde]

Great to hear you got it tweaked.
I believe, now it is what it is: A normal 3B in a Troopy, which leaves it underpowered, at least to interstate standards.
I had the same experience, although my BJ73 is probably even lighter than the Troopy with guys & gear (my BJ73 sits at 2340kg fully laden):
Long inclines are a no no, even at low altitude. Left me at 50km/h 30mph or even less, and temp going up to an, as you say, illegal level.
(Caused me to improve my temp gauge).
For your long trip, it may be a poor advice (sorry), but I run my 3B BJ73 at about 90 km/h cruising speed, which is that 55 mph FJBen mentioned. It's just the minimum to survive on German Autobahn. Luckily I live in a flat and low area. And I learned taking my time and enjoy the scenic country lanes.
For anything else our rigs and engine do not suffice.
It is what it is, but it is still sufficient to enjoy and have a lot of fun.
Good luck on your trip. It'll be great and we can't wait to see scenic pics and vids from you guys again.
Cheers Ralf

 

[theglobb]

I would definitely start by setting your timing to factory specs. In theory, if you haven't touched the IP and it ran cool before, then you must have some other issues at play, but it wouldn't hurt to check the timing.

As you, robmobile, and others have suggested I'll be setting it to a factory baseline just to start with. I don't know if it ran cool before, all we know is it ran a lot less rich in the silver troopy. I have no idea what would have changed, I had to screw the fuel screw 2 & 1/2 turns in to finally get it not rolling coal everywhere. Kinda dumbfounded by this, I just don't know what would cause that much of a difference in fuel delivery, only thing I messed with on the current IP is the leather diaphragm being replaced.

dragging brakes?
drag on driveline (transmission/tcase/diff?)

Tested this yesterday, front spin totally free then I got to the rears... totally seized up, I got excited as maybe this was what was reducing my speed and raising my temps... NOPE just left the handbrake on lol. Everything spins freely when I jack it up.

The IDI motors tend to be able to run hotter EGT's. Just this weekend, I ran about 950~1050EGT at 5000'~8000' and 65mph up/down hills, 10~15psi If you are running non-turbo, and 2000lbs more weight your EGT's aren't THAT much higher in an engine thats working way harder with less HP.



If you decide to slap the turbo on, for sure do not block the wastegate. Retard the timing a little from factory. Make sure that engine can breathe good from intake to exhaust. Did you check the valve timing on this? Really easy to do.

Personally, I don't think Toyota designed them for a 65~70mph highway burner. In 1988 the US changed the speed limits back to 65mph. (fun worthless fact for the day). I bet at 55, that troopy runs cool even with all that weight. (outside of mountain passes)

I will not be blocking the waste gate by any means, I was just gonna loosen the turnbuckle enough to where I can't make more than 8-10psi max boost. Basically a constant boost leak, this is due to me not being able to use my factory waste gate since the way my turbo is clocked. Currently I've been running a sock as my air filter and I have no exhaust hooked up so its just dumping right down into my engine bay, super annoyingly loud. With the turbo installed I'll be able to attach my actual intake and exhaust back together. Straight pipe 2.5inch.

Great to hear you got it tweaked.
I believe, now it is what it is: A normal 3B in a Troopy, which leaves it underpowered, at least to interstate standards.
I had the same experience, although my BJ73 is probably even lighter than the Troopy with guys & gear (my BJ73 sits at 2340kg fully laden):
Long inclines are a no no, even at low altitude. Left me at 50km/h 30mph or even less, and temp going up to an, as you say, illegal level.
(Caused me to improve my temp gauge).
For your long trip, it may be a poor advice (sorry), but I run my 3B BJ73 at about 90 km/h cruising speed, which is that 55 mph FJBen mentioned. It's just the minimum to survive on German Autobahn. Luckily I live in a flat and low area. And I learned taking my time and enjoy the scenic country lanes.
For anything else our rigs and engine do not suffice.
It is what it is, but it is still sufficient to enjoy and have a lot of fun.
Good luck on your trip. It'll be great and we can't wait to see scenic pics and vids from you guys again.
Cheers Ralf

Thank you for the advice, not poor advice at all. I'd much prefer to take the scenic back roads at 55-60mph. My main concern with not having a turbo vs having one is just inclines and altitude. I never thought about it but even though a lot of the land out west is flat... its still like 4000-5000ft in elevation. This just led to my engine running hotter regardless on if I was on flat land or in the mountains... to the point where it would run ok if it was totally flat but even with the slightest incline it would start to creep up in temps.


This all being said, a lot of you probably know how much I struggled with water temp on last years trip, it was a constant battle to keep it below 220f. This is just due to a crappy radiator that wasnt all there anymore... cooled my engine just fine at sea level on flat ground, cooled it just fine until about half way through Kansas when elevation started getting higher and higher and the first signs of cooling system issues started to pop up. Well I'd just like to say @nuclearbeef is a great guy, amazing to work with and even offered to set up a payment plan due to my current financial situation. He threw in a free radiator from the troopy I pulled the engine out of and right off the back it's already keeping my engine a solid 10 degrees cooler than prior. This is a major help as I didn't have the money to have my other one recored for $900 and I was skeptical on the cheap Chinese copies. Regardless it's keeping my engine quite a bit cooler than my old radiator, and I have a feeling water temp will be a lot less of a worry on this trip, thank god.

Will keep you all updated with progress over the next couple of days

 

[theglobb]

Edit: the small camshaft in the pump probably wear too with the cam lobe becoming lower. Then plunger stroke is less and can be compensated by giving more fuel. But if the max fuel rack is not increased, may turn out to be a less powerful 3B

Took all measurements on my 3B, camshaft stil within tolerance but the height of the cam lobe are less than when it was new. Which mean valve doesn’t open as much.
I’m sure a turbo help the 3B to breath.

Are you suggesting I do anything to counterbalance this with my engine? If so how would I? Thanks

 

[dragonbyu]

The rebuilt injectors are most likely why you had to dial back the fuel. Whenever I replace injectors on my truck the IP needs tuning.

 

[FJBen]

The rebuilt injectors are most likely why you had to dial back the fuel. Whenever I replace injectors on my truck the IP needs tuning.

Correct, if those injectors were blocked/not functioning right that would make sense. I forgot they were rebuilt.

 

[lacalvette]

Unless a worn camshaft is changed for a new one , there is no adjustment to overcome that. Can’t cheat on valve lash, I would think that engine is interference type. Had one piston with a valve mark stamp on it, I think that was because of a bad (worn out) rocker arm and …bad valve lash adjustment

Turbo should be a good workaround.
As for the fuel pump, there is room for increasing the fuel rack if necessary (nut)

Sorry if I miss info but, is your 75 have the 4.11 ratio and what’s your tire size.
Also the locker you installed in the rear end, how it work? Some LSD are always locked and need a lot of force to overcome the friction when turning (specially when new)

I used to run stock ratio/tire on my 3B75 and it is slow but not too bad. The two last PO went around South America fully loaded!! Guess they did not go often on highway??

If we could add an electric motor on the driveline for the hill, that would be nice
Hope all the best

 

[theglobb]

Alright… the troopy wins, I can’t do it any more. I was gonna post today about how well it runs and how cool the engine is running compared to the old one. Leaving for Montana in 2 days now, driving home from my friends house and it had a bit less pickup and smelled more diesely, idled rough… all symptoms of more air in my fuel lines so I bled the injectors, kept on moving but it was still lacking in performance, yes even for a 3B. Then a BAD noise for about 2 seconds came from the engine, I shut it off, and here we are. Waiting on a tow truck again with a 2nd ruined 3B. I can’t do it, not mentally right now and certainly not financially.

 

[theglobb]

Opened the oil cap right after the noise and tons of white smoke came pouring out. Excuse my dramatic tone I just am sick to my stomach at the moment, don’t mean to sound like a wussy lol

 

[robmobile73]

Patience, tomorrow is a new day. The problem will reveal itself. You have an entire 3b short of crank to swap from.

 

[robmobile73]

Smoke or steam? Answer that for yourself now, not for me.

 

[theglobb]

Patience, tomorrow is a new day. The problem will reveal itself. You have an entire 3b short of crank to swap from.

You’re right, just hurt at the moment. Now I really don’t want a 3B back in it… things just got personal between me and the 3B. Unless one is offered to me for practically free or this is an easy fix… but I don’t think it will be

Smoke or steam? Answer that for yourself now, not for me.

No idea, was figuring it was oil burning cause it smelled like burning oil when I was driving and right after I ran it, not like coolant