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- #401
Power routed to under seat
Builds The Guzzler - 2009 LX570 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter grinchy
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- #402
Distribution blocks done. Tediously building out the amp by amp wiring.
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- #403
In a big push to wrap it up I got the amps wired, the usb x6, and ran all the RCAs. The amps come up, and DSP 5 (the first in the chain) is working. It got dark and I didn't get to trouble shooting, shouldn't be too much to fix, probably just reversed a connection from 5 to 1 and 3.
After the dry run I still have final wire ties and tidying up; am still optimistic it will fit.
Very close to being done . . . I hope.
After the dry run I still have final wire ties and tidying up; am still optimistic it will fit.
Very close to being done . . . I hope.
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- #404
So it is fully debugged and all 12 channels are working correctly and have gain set. I had picked the wrong output DAC in a couple of the dsp. Also found out the 1/8 to rca I was planning to use aren’t firing on all channels. This is a big problem as they are a lot less volume than the rca cables.
I have the amps and cabling all wire tire and I’m trying to puzzle out how to fit the dsp and bulky cables into the remaining space.
Early sound review: amazing. Way better than before.
pic is dry run before amps and speaker wires cleaned up.
I have the amps and cabling all wire tire and I’m trying to puzzle out how to fit the dsp and bulky cables into the remaining space.
Early sound review: amazing. Way better than before.
pic is dry run before amps and speaker wires cleaned up.
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- #405
Mostly stuffed in the hole. Broke two usb power ports on two boards.had to solder the usb direct to the header.
No place for the Rse, it will have to go on the seat somewhere.
can’t wait to finish this so I can move on some more build items
No place for the Rse, it will have to go on the seat somewhere.
can’t wait to finish this so I can move on some more build items
raincityrider
Go'n Fast and Take'n Chances Since the 70's
Is that all under the seat?
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- #407
That’s the idea. I’m about 1” taller than stock with all those heavy rcas. Considering a different dsp waterfall and using some jumpers to get the fourth dsp channel that will reduce rcas by 1/3 and dsp by two. Right now it is too stuffed in and breaking things on the circuit boards just from trying to get to fit.
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- #408
Well, the audio rebuild continues. I've reduced to 4, then 3 dsps. I've replaced the heavy coax based rcas with dime store wire based slimmer versions. DSPs are now all R/L in, and match the three amps, one dsp one amp four speakers.
All of this required redoing the entire signal path, reprogramming all the DSPs etc etc. Since I'm not doing a waterfall all the delays had to change, and I had to build some custom signal cables to split the L and R out. I also had to build RCA outs for the dsp channel that isn't represented on the daughterboard. The dsps are bare circuit boards and pretty fragile, I've cooked two of them so far just from wire pressure.
I still have to level the amps again and reset the gain. Unfortunately my volume pot has just blown so I can't reset the gain. It's a bummer as I am soo close to getting this done.
What can I say about the sound? Even unleveled it is way way better than the house sound. All that additional power really is going to add to clarity and I can get a full signal sub to tweeter. The clarity in the bass and highs is what I'm used to experiencing in a dedicated home setup, this is very exciting.
Summary: It is still better to get the Alpine PXE-0850S, one 4 channel amp and be done with it. That solution while more $$ is going to be much easier to implement, have better control (bluetooth settings adjustment etc), and it has a nice integrated hard control to pull it all together. The extra $$ are easily justified by the time in the custom DSPs, and will do better in the car environment I'm sure.
All of this required redoing the entire signal path, reprogramming all the DSPs etc etc. Since I'm not doing a waterfall all the delays had to change, and I had to build some custom signal cables to split the L and R out. I also had to build RCA outs for the dsp channel that isn't represented on the daughterboard. The dsps are bare circuit boards and pretty fragile, I've cooked two of them so far just from wire pressure.
I still have to level the amps again and reset the gain. Unfortunately my volume pot has just blown so I can't reset the gain. It's a bummer as I am soo close to getting this done.
What can I say about the sound? Even unleveled it is way way better than the house sound. All that additional power really is going to add to clarity and I can get a full signal sub to tweeter. The clarity in the bass and highs is what I'm used to experiencing in a dedicated home setup, this is very exciting.
Summary: It is still better to get the Alpine PXE-0850S, one 4 channel amp and be done with it. That solution while more $$ is going to be much easier to implement, have better control (bluetooth settings adjustment etc), and it has a nice integrated hard control to pull it all together. The extra $$ are easily justified by the time in the custom DSPs, and will do better in the car environment I'm sure.
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- #409
All ready to roll with levels set. Was able to stuff the rear seat entertainment in there too.
Sounds great!
Sounds great!
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- #410
So on to the BOM for replacing the amplifier. Quick summary you need 12 channels of power, and the head unit feeds L and R with an available remote/acc wire too. There is two 12v and two G in the stock harness, 12 gauge I think. These are on a 30 amp fuse labeled amplifier in the engine bay. The space under the seat is about 8 wide, 18 long and 3 deep (inches) . If you reuse the stock mounts there is around 2” useable dept. There is more space toward the door, but it is not readily accessible.
power - if you are going with a two or three amp solution, you’ll need to run a larger gauge from the battery. i used 4 gauge to provide head room for a Fridge and other possible accessories down the road, and left a space in the distribution blocks for this. I chose a 100 amp fuse, and have 3 30 amp class d amplifiers on it. I used the mplifier circuit to run the power for the dsps and rear seat entertainment, and put a 5 amp fuse in place of the 30. I see a 1 to four distribution block 4 gauge to 10. I fused the usb power separately, and used a relay on the acc so that the house power is running the accessories and not the acc line, that is used only for switching remote wires. To proactively manage potential grounding issues, I tied one of the two amplifier grounds to the house ground, and the other to the ground block / chassis. The usb and dsps were all grounded to house, as that is what the signal input is grounded too. Further the dsps were all grounded to each other with jumper wires.
power - if you are going with a two or three amp solution, you’ll need to run a larger gauge from the battery. i used 4 gauge to provide head room for a Fridge and other possible accessories down the road, and left a space in the distribution blocks for this. I chose a 100 amp fuse, and have 3 30 amp class d amplifiers on it. I used the mplifier circuit to run the power for the dsps and rear seat entertainment, and put a 5 amp fuse in place of the 30. I see a 1 to four distribution block 4 gauge to 10. I fused the usb power separately, and used a relay on the acc so that the house power is running the accessories and not the acc line, that is used only for switching remote wires. To proactively manage potential grounding issues, I tied one of the two amplifier grounds to the house ground, and the other to the ground block / chassis. The usb and dsps were all grounded to house, as that is what the signal input is grounded too. Further the dsps were all grounded to each other with jumper wires.
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- #411
Power section
15 feet 4 gauge used about 10
5 feet 4 gauge used about 3
100 amp fuse and holder
two 4 gauge tinned crimp lugs 3/8
two 1 to 4, 4 to 10 gauge distribution blocks
six feet of 10 gauge for amplifier lead extensions
various connectors for the extensions
six feet of 14 gauge for remote extensions
1 12v usb six plug
1 12v relay
even more wire connectors
15 feet 4 gauge used about 10
5 feet 4 gauge used about 3
100 amp fuse and holder
two 4 gauge tinned crimp lugs 3/8
two 1 to 4, 4 to 10 gauge distribution blocks
six feet of 10 gauge for amplifier lead extensions
various connectors for the extensions
six feet of 14 gauge for remote extensions
1 12v usb six plug
1 12v relay
even more wire connectors
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- #412
Signal path
so the L and R from the head unit is around 2v. It is passed on four tiny 20g or so wires. Decision point one is what is the best connector to use. I went with female rca. To do it again I think I’d go with 1/8” headphone female.
from the connector you go to a volume pot. these invariably are1/8” in and out. The dsp also take 1/8 in. And guess what, 1/8” splitters are common and cheap! Finally 1/8” is way less space than coax based Ross, and you will need that space.
signal path bom
one 1/8” female stereo (I used two rca female)
1 3 ft 1/8” male to male (I used rca to 1/8” male)
1 volume pot. I used a little bear with two,inputs and mute. It broke. Im now on a nice aluminum alloy pot only. I also bought an electronic vol with remote that I may mount in the ashtray sometime, but that requires some fab and I don’t have time right now.
1 3 ft 1/8” male to female
1 1 to 5 1/8” splitter ( 1 to 3 would work too.)
3 1ft 1/8” male to male tomtake signals to dsps
i recommend 90 plugs for everything but the dsp side for whatever reason the dsp like straight plugs.
so the L and R from the head unit is around 2v. It is passed on four tiny 20g or so wires. Decision point one is what is the best connector to use. I went with female rca. To do it again I think I’d go with 1/8” headphone female.
from the connector you go to a volume pot. these invariably are1/8” in and out. The dsp also take 1/8 in. And guess what, 1/8” splitters are common and cheap! Finally 1/8” is way less space than coax based Ross, and you will need that space.
signal path bom
one 1/8” female stereo (I used two rca female)
1 3 ft 1/8” male to male (I used rca to 1/8” male)
1 volume pot. I used a little bear with two,inputs and mute. It broke. Im now on a nice aluminum alloy pot only. I also bought an electronic vol with remote that I may mount in the ashtray sometime, but that requires some fab and I don’t have time right now.
1 3 ft 1/8” male to female
1 1 to 5 1/8” splitter ( 1 to 3 would work too.)
3 1ft 1/8” male to male tomtake signals to dsps
i recommend 90 plugs for everything but the dsp side for whatever reason the dsp like straight plugs.
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- #413
Amplifiers
make sure you are getting 4 channel amps with gain for each channel pair. Anything 25 watt or better per channel is going to be equivalent to the stock setup. There are only a few amp that will fit. Aim for around 3x6x1.5”. Remember the amp connectors will take up space on the ends.
3 4 channel mini class d amps. I used stealth st4.1000d. They are fine. Jlaudio also sells a small 4 channel, and if I’d found those before ordering would have gone with those.
rcas. Get the thinnest most flexible you can find. 18” is more than long enough. The best solution for six of the channels I’ll be a straight 1/8” to 90 rca. I ended up using old three channel yellow red white av cables from the 90s I had in my electronics box.
make sure you are getting 4 channel amps with gain for each channel pair. Anything 25 watt or better per channel is going to be equivalent to the stock setup. There are only a few amp that will fit. Aim for around 3x6x1.5”. Remember the amp connectors will take up space on the ends.
3 4 channel mini class d amps. I used stealth st4.1000d. They are fine. Jlaudio also sells a small 4 channel, and if I’d found those before ordering would have gone with those.
rcas. Get the thinnest most flexible you can find. 18” is more than long enough. The best solution for six of the channels I’ll be a straight 1/8” to 90 rca. I ended up using old three channel yellow red white av cables from the 90s I had in my electronics box.
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- #414
Dsps.
So this is the magic and the complexity. I used three Dayton audio dspbke, and the daughter boards. These are about $30 each. They are four channel, and the final solution has the signal path simple, and defined by the stock speaker plug wires (easier to repin wires close together). However you pin the speakers, put pairEd channels on the same amp pair to make it easier to set gains and balance. (Example front woofer l and r on a channel pair and going to l and r of a side of the amp.
you‘ll need to customize the dspbke a little bit. They are bare board and NOT hardy. I broke several rcas and usb connection just with small wire pressure. You’ll need an isolator for the bottom of the daughter board. I used a sheet of rubber plumber make. Gasket, cut into squares, and attached using the screws for the daughter board.
you will need to make an rca out for the fourth channel, which is not on the daughter board. This can be connected to ol2 on the dsp board. I used jumper wire for this, but a three or four pin connecto could also be used. The connectors are common 0.1” or 2.54 mm spacing.
analog devices sigma studio is free, runs on. Pc or Mac with parallels, and is used to program the dsps (filters, crossovers and most importantly delay). In fact the amps can do all the crossovers except the sub/center pair, so it is really only time delay that the dsp ar useful for. I used crossovers in the low 100s for,the woofers, and set the center on a five octave band pass starting at 300 (300 - 9600 hz)
you also need 1 icp1 programmer dsp to download the customizations from sw to hw.
So this is the magic and the complexity. I used three Dayton audio dspbke, and the daughter boards. These are about $30 each. They are four channel, and the final solution has the signal path simple, and defined by the stock speaker plug wires (easier to repin wires close together). However you pin the speakers, put pairEd channels on the same amp pair to make it easier to set gains and balance. (Example front woofer l and r on a channel pair and going to l and r of a side of the amp.
you‘ll need to customize the dspbke a little bit. They are bare board and NOT hardy. I broke several rcas and usb connection just with small wire pressure. You’ll need an isolator for the bottom of the daughter board. I used a sheet of rubber plumber make. Gasket, cut into squares, and attached using the screws for the daughter board.
you will need to make an rca out for the fourth channel, which is not on the daughter board. This can be connected to ol2 on the dsp board. I used jumper wire for this, but a three or four pin connecto could also be used. The connectors are common 0.1” or 2.54 mm spacing.
analog devices sigma studio is free, runs on. Pc or Mac with parallels, and is used to program the dsps (filters, crossovers and most importantly delay). In fact the amps can do all the crossovers except the sub/center pair, so it is really only time delay that the dsp ar useful for. I used crossovers in the low 100s for,the woofers, and set the center on a five octave band pass starting at 300 (300 - 9600 hz)
you also need 1 icp1 programmer dsp to download the customizations from sw to hw.
Last edited:
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- #415
Amplifier replacement costs
$330 amps
$120 dsps
$60 4 gauge power solution
$75 signal path cables and vol pot
$600 or so.
I also wrecked $100 of dsp and vol pot, and am having to return the first amps and a bunch of various cables.
I recommend an alternate solution which is likely hardier, far easier to deploy, and will sound just as good.
$110 1 4 channel amp
$700 alpine pxe-0850s (Amazon)
$60 power solution
$75 cables
$925 or so.
the alpine dsp can be bought for $500 China direct on eBay.
ill add more after I get this buttoned up and shakedown occurs. It is still probable iI will have to move to the alpine dsp.
$330 amps
$120 dsps
$60 4 gauge power solution
$75 signal path cables and vol pot
$600 or so.
I also wrecked $100 of dsp and vol pot, and am having to return the first amps and a bunch of various cables.
I recommend an alternate solution which is likely hardier, far easier to deploy, and will sound just as good.
$110 1 4 channel amp
$700 alpine pxe-0850s (Amazon)
$60 power solution
$75 cables
$925 or so.
the alpine dsp can be bought for $500 China direct on eBay.
ill add more after I get this buttoned up and shakedown occurs. It is still probable iI will have to move to the alpine dsp.
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- #416
All sewed up.
and the volume pot. Using command tape while I decide if I like the location.
shake down taken. Should have turned the gain up a little bit more on the bass and also across the board, forgot how much bass the car would neutralize with road noise.
still a good visceral experience and balanced through the frequency band. I mayspin up a dsp to put in the console to use as an equalizer if I choose to fiddle with the sound.
seat position is high. I usually have it high so no biggee. Might be an issue for a taller person.
and the volume pot. Using command tape while I decide if I like the location.
shake down taken. Should have turned the gain up a little bit more on the bass and also across the board, forgot how much bass the car would neutralize with road noise.
still a good visceral experience and balanced through the frequency band. I mayspin up a dsp to put in the console to use as an equalizer if I choose to fiddle with the sound.
seat position is high. I usually have it high so no biggee. Might be an issue for a taller person.
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- #418
Yeah I like to fiddle. Sometimes I dig a bit of a hole doing so.
There are limited options when your amp blows. Repair is $400, and it isn’t that great to begin with. Also many repaired amps are failing a second time, so I went ahead and ripped the band aid off.
To do it again I would definitely use the alpine dsp. Only $300 more (or less if you can find a deal) none of the custom dsp nonsense, Bluetooth source and sound profiling, and it is space efficient too. Would be a good 8 hour project.
Amazon product ASIN B07C2CBFD4
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- #419
Well, all my grounding didn't solve the 1/8" stock input while combined with a cig adapter at the console powerport. This has a bit of accelerator/ignition whine on my firefly knockoff bluetooth adapter. No whine on a battery powered bluetooth, just the direct powered firefly. I've heard the same whine before when using a usb powered fm transmitter 1/8" adapter for non bluetooth devices.
No whine with my ancient Zune either, it is definitely the usb + 1/8" jack which apparently don't share a common ground with each other or not with the radio chassis, not sure which, either one alone is fine.
I'm not going to reground it; I am going back to my battery powered bluetooth adapter, it's not horrible, just have to hit the on button on that bluetooth adapter.
No whine with my ancient Zune either, it is definitely the usb + 1/8" jack which apparently don't share a common ground with each other or not with the radio chassis, not sure which, either one alone is fine.
I'm not going to reground it; I am going back to my battery powered bluetooth adapter, it's not horrible, just have to hit the on button on that bluetooth adapter.
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- #420
After a few days more here are the observations.
Definitely an rpm (alternator probably) whine. Low in volume but audible for sure, more noticeable on podcasts and other stuff I run through Aux either direct cable or Bluetooth. it is either an artifact of my created ground at the seat,noise coining in from power to signal contamination, or signal to power ground difference (head unit to amps). Sucks all the same, I’ll have to pull the seat to troubleshoot.
I am overheating the amps. Will need to put some space between them, and possibly look at a fan. Get that good old heat soak smell about 45 minutes in. The stock amp has two small 1.5” fan, I’m thinking a couple of case fans and a bit of space solve this issue.
Other than this, the gain across the board is a bit low for some aux sources, and my sub and woofers will get a bit more gain too. Even with these tweaks pending the overall sound is stellar.
Definitely an rpm (alternator probably) whine. Low in volume but audible for sure, more noticeable on podcasts and other stuff I run through Aux either direct cable or Bluetooth. it is either an artifact of my created ground at the seat,noise coining in from power to signal contamination, or signal to power ground difference (head unit to amps). Sucks all the same, I’ll have to pull the seat to troubleshoot.
I am overheating the amps. Will need to put some space between them, and possibly look at a fan. Get that good old heat soak smell about 45 minutes in. The stock amp has two small 1.5” fan, I’m thinking a couple of case fans and a bit of space solve this issue.
Other than this, the gain across the board is a bit low for some aux sources, and my sub and woofers will get a bit more gain too. Even with these tweaks pending the overall sound is stellar.
