The 2H/12H-T/1HZ/1HD-T/1HD-FT Gturbo Alternative Tech Thread

[KiwiDingo]

You are claiming that you can wastegate EMP without reducing boost. That claim is total rubbish.

Like I said, that's your opinion. That's all it is, an opinion. My opinion is different but it has no more or less importance than yours.

I know what results i've gotten and whether I can or can not achieve the same boost with varying levels of EMP (which i can ) and I think it's good info for others to hear. People can choose to take that info however they like, I'm sure it'll be helpful to some.

I think there would be a lot of differing opinions on this matter and plenty of others too but most people have realised how you take views on anything slightly different than your own and just don't want to deal with all your nonsense. I on the other hand just don't care and will continue posting my results and opinions on subjects I feel like I can help expand people's knowledge with.

 

[Dougal]

Like I said, that's your opinion.

No it's not. It's physics.

 

[KiwiDingo]

Yep it sure is, it wouldn't be possible for me to do anything without it.

Thanks for offering your opinion on it though

 

[mudgudgeon]

I know what results i've gotten and whether I can or can not achieve the same boost with varying levels of EMP

Next you'll be telling us you can put more torque to the ground while you're slipping the clutch, and that a slipping clutch is a good thing because it puts less load the driveshafts, but acceleration is exactly the same.

 

[KiwiDingo]

Next you'll be telling us you can put more torque to the ground while you're slipping the clutch, and that a slipping clutch is a good thing because it puts less load the driveshafts, but acceleration is exactly the same.

Nope, I'd never say that because I know it's not true. Feel free to try it out though and let me know how you go.

 

[gerg]

I guess the problem is Kwi that you've done an experiment and interpreted your results in a way that seems illogical. Without acurate imperial data were just relying on your opinion (experience) and when it's contrary to contemporary thinking it gets tossed out. Post up some data. Data log or videos are best as they bipass interpretations.

 

[KiwiDingo]

I guess the problem is Kwi that you've done an experiment and interpreted your results in a way that seems illogical.

Illogical? Not to me it doesn't, that's your opinion not mine. Just take it for what it is, my opinion on something i've taking the time to test and then write about on a public forum to hopefully help someone out or give them an idea about something they haven't thought of before. Not sure why certain people keep trying to stop me from giving mine but that's ok, I have nothing but time and will continue to do so. I've read plenty of people's opinions on this forum that I don't agree with or have found a different answer to but I just read it, take note of what I want then move on.

Without acurate imperial data were just relying on your opinion (experience) and when it's contrary to contemporary thinking it gets tossed out.

Yes, you are correct. That's all it is, my opinion on what I have found testing this. If people choose to take no notice and toss it out that's up to them. I'm sure just as many people will take it the other way and maybe start investigating this further for themselves instead of just following other people's opinions and form their own. This is the whole point of this forum after all which I'm finding is not the way certain people have been treating it. This isn't some elite club or high tech research facility releasing white papers on research with all the corresponding data. Get over yourselves, It's hard to try and put what you think you know into words and convey to others publically what you have found or things you have done to achieve a particular thing. Have you ever wondered why there's so few relatively new members or guys/girls with little experience writing about things they have done/tried or tested? Something to think about....

Post up some data. Data log or videos are best as they bipass interpretations.

Nah I'm good mate, test it yourself and post yours up. But I'm happy to hear your opinion of how it went. Don't worry though I don't need any proof or data to backup up your opinion of your findings. What you find is what you find, who am I to argue or debate something I clearly have not witnessed or seen myself? Just makes conversations like this more interesting and might trigger a thought or an idea for something different for me to try.

 

[AussieHJCruza]

Nah I'm good mate, test it yourself and post yours up. But I'm happy to hear your opinion of how it went. Don't worry though I don't need any proof or data to backup up your opinion of your findings. What you find is what you find, who am I to argue or debate something I clearly have not witnessed or seen myself? Just makes conversations like this more interesting and might trigger a thought or an idea for something different for me to try.

The problem here is that if you're going to make claims, especially ones that counteract the laws of physics, you need to back them up with data. If you're not able/willing to do that, then the claims you make are somewhat questionable.

 

[KiwiDingo]

The problem here is that if you're going to make claims, especially ones that counteract the laws of physics, you need to back them up with data. If you're not able/willing to do that, then the claims you make are somewhat questionable.

This is a test to see if I take my own advise and not comment on opinions I don't believe right? Haha nah but seriously I do not believe I'm don't anything special. Maybe I'm not putting into words what I'm doing but I think this is the best explanation I can write.

You guys aren't looking at it the right way. Most people are running more than the required EMP necessary to provide the turbine with the required energy to drive the comp wheel at the desired boost. All I'm doing is setting up my gate so that I'm using the lowest EMP possible to achieve the same boost pressure.

I can make the very same level of boost with a whole bunch of different spring and preload combinations. The EMP of these combinations vary greatly even though the boost level is the same. My car is faster and has better drivability with the setup that has the lowest EMP. I really don't know how to explain this any other way.

 

[AussieHJCruza]

This is a test to see if I take my own advise and not comment on opinions I don't believe right? Haha nah but seriously I do not believe I'm don't anything special. Maybe I'm not putting into words what I'm doing but I think this is the best explanation I can write.

I can make the very same level of boost with a whole bunch of different spring and preload combinations. The EMP of these combinations vary greatly even though the boost level is the same. My car is faster and has better drivability with the setup that has the lowest EMP. I really don't know how to explain this any other way.

Sorry, I hadn't even read that bit - that was meant in all seriousness...
Have you got something that shows boost vs emp, and ideally AFR, and speed or RPM or something for these combinations? Was this data recorded on a dyno, on the street or somewhere else?

 

[KiwiDingo]

Yes I can monitor turbo outlet pressure, intake pressure, exhaust pressure, EGT ( although I only have one fitting in my exhaust manifold so have to swap between EGT or EMP depending on what I want to see. I could do post turbo temps but I don't really see the point plus I have a divorce style dump pipe arrangement so not much room), AFR is via a temporary handheld reader which I don't leave in all the time as I don't put much weighting on this reading and prefer to go off EGT as to what my limit of fuel is. I just use it for when making injector pump adjustments or getting the profile of the aneroid pin correct or moving just how I like it.

 

[Dougal]

Yes I can monitor turbo outlet pressure, intake pressure, exhaust pressure, EGT ( although I only have one fitting in my exhaust manifold so have to swap between EGT or EMP depending on what I want to see. I could do post turbo temps but I don't really see the point plus I have a divorce style dump pipe arrangement so not much room), AFR is via a temporary handheld reader which I don't leave in all the time as I don't put much weighting on this reading and prefer to go off EGT as to what my limit of fuel is. I just use it for when making injector pump adjustments or getting the profile of the aneroid pin correct or moving just how I like it.

Being able to only measure EMP or EGT makes your results useless. If you could measure both at the same time you would immediately see why your claims are wrong.

This is a complete waste of time.

 

[KiwiDingo]

Haha classic Dougal response. That's your opinion not mine but that's ok. Only one wasting time here is you.

 

[Wildnlost]

Spirited circular conversation for sure. With my current build in progress I have installed an Innovate Motorsports electronic boost controller to improve boost response. There is no pressure to the waste gate at all until it gets close to the boost set point.
The reason I chose this boost controller was determined when doing some testing to see how much boost I could make before the turbo choked....I did this by pinching the waste gate pressure line shut. With the line pinched off my turbo lag was greatly reduced and boost was very high of course.
No bleed of EMP faster response ... lots of boost.
@KiwiDingo try this little experiment yourself. It may spur you consider that your logic is flawed.
Another case in point ....my turbo was ordered with a 9 blade exhaust turbine. The response was lazy with ok peak boost. By changing to a 12 blade turbine my turbo lag was greatly reduced because the 12 blade turbine restricts flow which in turn increases EMP. The extra EMP reduced the turbo lag and improves response by driving the compressor harder. Any reduction in EMP is reducing drive to the compressor. Less drive equals less flow to the intake.
Hope this helps.

PS. I do not stick to the status quo. Look at my intercooler build or my piston and head mods. The discussion around drive pressure is cut and dryed science. Action = Reaction.

 

[KiwiDingo]

Thanks @Wildnlost, nice write up. Oh that gauge/controller looks nice, I didn't realise they did an all in one gauge like that. I have their standalone AFR LM-2 gauge but I really like that. Having gauges that carry out more than one function is great.

That's great news you found better performance by pinching off the actuator pressure line. Makes complete sense to pursue this further and control it exactly how you want with the electronic controller. I sadly didn't find the same results when I pinched off my pressure line to the actuator. Yes my spool was quicker but my time trail's for gaining speed vs time increased which I wasn't happy with so I went with the setup that gave me the quickest time.

I enjoy reading what people do with their own setups and how it helped them improve performance. If I hadn't have already tried this test I totally would have gone out and tried it, that's why I enjoy forums like this as I get lots of new ideas and things to try. I just won't stand for people telling me they know what's happening with my own car better than I and telling me i'm making stuff up that isn't true.

I'm going to check out that gauge of yours though, can I asked how much it cost you?
haha, never mind. Just saw the price at the bottom of the picture!

 

[Wildnlost]

Thanks @Wildnlost, nice write up. Oh that gauge/controller looks nice, I didn't realise they did an all in one gauge like that. I have their standalone AFR LM-2 gauge but I really like that. Having gauges that carry out more than one function is great.

That's great news you found better performance by pinching off the actuator pressure line. Makes complete sense to pursue this further and control it exactly how you want with the electronic controller. I sadly didn't find the same results when I pinched off my pressure line to the actuator. Yes my spool was quicker but my time trail's for gaining speed vs time increased which I wasn't happy with so I went with the setup that gave me the quickest time.

I enjoy reading what people do with their own setups and how it helped them improve performance. If I hadn't have already tried this test I totally would have gone out and tried it, that's why I enjoy forums like this as I get lots of new ideas and things to try. I just won't stand for people telling me they know what's happening with my own car better than I and telling me i'm making stuff up that isn't true.

I'm going to check out that gauge of yours though, can I asked how much it cost you?
haha, never mind. Just saw the price at the bottom of the picture!

No problem.
Rabbit holes are funny things...they are easy to get lost in.
Another suggestion would be to repeat your tests. I have been stuck in a rabbit hole because I did not see the error in my testing.
Science is about repeatability. Check findings against your base line. It is hard to know when you are stuck in the rabbit hole.
Cheers

 

[Mcreight911]

Had a few beers so this maybe a bit long winded.

It’s becoming common practice with some performance turbos to run hi tension Waste gate springs and mechanisms to limit gate travel . You see big boost (Extremely high shaft speed) and a boost gauge that follows throttle position. Looks cool but adds massive stress on turbo components.

Myself, on these setups changing waste gate actuator spring tension only ( no fuelling changes) from hi to low e.g random numbers 24psi to 13 psi I’ve not Been able to maintain the same rate of spool . Similar but just lower max boost, same max power and torque in most cases and more often than not torque and power holds on longer .

When combining some fuelling changes with wastegate setting that keep drive pressure ratio close to 1.2:1 you can get very similar torque down low and better performance at previous peak and top rpm . Afr May be lower in the spool zone but smoke the same and egt never an issue under any condition .

This is not the case with every turbo setup you can’t just whack in the Lowest tension spring you can find and wind up the fuel, it’s only if the setup has what I call high drive ressure ratio, 1.6-1.8:1 Hot turbine full throttle max torque rpm to redline.


Having a high tension springs that opens late or limits gate travel to increases boost as fast as possible and maintain boost gives the feeling of a big aggressive punch of power (which we all like ) as the turbo comes on. But Once boost is at or within a few psi of max, despite torque still rising on a dyno graph on the road it feels like it drops off. When Everything is optimise and you get drive pressure down around 1.2:1 the setup may make the same peak power and torque but will feel smooth and slow . Full throttle dyno power graphs dont always show this characteristic to be as big a difference as it feels. Part throttle driving and Speed over time graphs do .

When trying to pick what turbo will suit you best try Talking to independent tuners rather than just a turbo company.

Regarding eclipse turbos. Yes I do recommend them, no I don’t work for them I’m just a backyard hack. I have dealt with some of their members at their previous jobs . They are made up of people that have tuned many brands of turbos (all the current major players) and everything from mar n pars 1hz to some of the biggest power diesels in oz.

 

[Dougal]

Once boost is at or within a few psi of max, despite torque still rising on a dyno graph on the road it feels like it drops off. When Everything is optimise and you get drive pressure down around 1.2:1 the setup may make the same peak power and torque but will feel smooth and slow . Full throttle dyno power graphs dont always show this characteristic. Part throttle runs and Speed over time graphs do .

Your comments above about torque still rising on a dyno but feeling like it doesn't on the road. That's because on the road your wind resistance squares with speed and starts to eat a lot of the power and torque instead of it becoming acceleration. What you perceive when driving is not the power or torque, but the resulting acceleration.

It's nothing to do with your tune. If it produces better torque on the dyno (and the operator isn't a shyster) then it produces more torque when driven too. Wastegates that stay shut through acceleration produce more torque both on the road and on a dyno.

Part throttle dyno pulls are a complete waste of time unless you're mapping out BSFC, NVH or doing engine development work.

 

[Dougal]

Yes my spool was quicker but my time trail's for gaining speed vs time increased which I wasn't happy with so I went with the setup that gave me the quickest time.

The quickest acceleration is always going to be the hottest and smokiest tune.

 

[KiwiDingo]

The quickest acceleration is always going to be the hottest and smokiest tune.

I didn't touch fuelling and my car makes no smoke. I hate smoke! The quickest acceleration for me was the one with the lowest EMP.