Strange Edic/Fuel Control relay woes: Please help

[tmarx]

It was a ZAR R400.00 meter which equates to about $60
Will have a look tonight as there is a button but I am not sure if it is a "relative" button. Thanks anyway

 

[rockcrawler]

Best way of checking for suspected bad earths is to rig up some jumpers to earth. Meters are pretty useless for testing for that sort of thing even if you have a good one.

 

[lostmarbles]

Tom I have a lead between the neg- terminal and the bottom of the bellhousing. It then also splits from the - terminal to the left fender but with my fender not in place at the moment I "earthed" that one to the radiator surround cum fan shroud. ?? Should I run some more straps ? When I tested for continuity on the block it seems to test fine ?..

Sounds like you have enough straps to me Theo ... So long as they are in good nick, of thick battery-cable sizing, and so long as there is no paint between each "eyelet" and its "contact metal" on the bellhousing and on the radiator support respectively ... I think they should be OK.

...When switching the new multimeter onto Omega and without touching anything the default reading is 0.L. ...

I think you mean "ohms" not "omega" Theo.

Edit: - Just realised why you said "omega" Theo - Of course the greek letter "omega" is used as the symbol for ohms. So it makes sense to me now that you moved your meter-knob towards this symbol.

And mine says "1." (rather than "0.L." which must be the South African version of saying it ) to show an opencircuit like that. But digital meters always have trouble with what to say for an open-circuit. They want to say "a very very very high ohms value" and if I was designing such a meter I'd get it to display "99999999999" right across the screen for this reading! (Perhaps Alex can tell us why they don't actually do this?)

Here's my el-cheapo meter showing an open-circuit. (And I just randomly selected that particular ohms scale.)

..Connecting the two multimeter's terminals gives a reading of 0.3 ohms. ....

Odd!

Australians would recognise how cheap my meter is because "Dick Smith Electronics" is an Australian company - yet my meter correctly reads "zero ohms" for a "dead short" like that:



But nevermind - we now know your meter records a "dead short" (otherwise known as "full continuity") as 0.3 ohms!

...Connecting the one to the neg- on the batt and taking a reading off the block, head and chassis(through the left fender mounting captive nuts) all gave a reading of 0.3 ohms. ..

Well this reading is "Full continuity" as expected then (according to your meter) - which suggests to me that your engine is properly earthed (although the 1.5V battery in your meter doesn't really provide an adequate test as Alex/Rockcrawler suggests in his post - and as I try to explain later on here too)

...Armed with this I tried to take a reading of the FCM body- From the armiture housing(painted) I got no reading -just 0.L . From the gearhousing I got a reading but it was not stable and I really had to scratch around to get a stable reading of 0.5 ohms and higher. .....

Well this rings alarm bells for me. You should be able to get a "0.3" reading off the bare alloy on your FCM to show "full-continuity of the earthing crcuit there".

And poor earthing of your FCM would indeed account for it not being able to position itself correctly for each key position.

Perhaps you removed your FCM and painted the block with a thick insulating material (like Rust Bullet) before refitting it ...... only to leave the FCM now in a state where it is "insulated from the block" rather than "earthed to the block"?

While I agree with Alex that a "continuity" result from a cheap multimeter (using milli-amps to test an earth-circuit) doesn't prove that that same earth circuit will be capable of carrying the REAL currents it is expected to carry (- perhaps hundreds of amps in the case of an earth strap carrying starter-motor current) - a poor result like this DOES suggest a problem in my view. (Unless you were inexperienced enough not to "scratch-through" the oxide-coating/dirt on your FCM alloy with your probe.)

...Then I went to the FCR body, initially it varied between no reading(ie 0.L) and jumping around. Some places would give 0.L and others would give 0.3 ohms. ...

Sounds OK considering you often need to "scratch through" oxide and dirt (with your probe) before reaching bare metal.

...So I tried the preheat timer and starter relay bodies also and also got non-consistent readings. I then removed the FCR, preheat timer relay and starter relay. I sanded down all the mounting tabs and tapped all the captive nuts again to remove all traces of paint. This improved matters in the sense that on all the mounting bolts and the bodies of those 3 relays I got eventual readings of 0.3 - 0.6 ohms although it sometimes took a bit of time to settle. I then tried to start her again but still the Edic doesn't move. ..Any further Ideas ? Where/how/should I install additional earth straps ?

I wouldn't install additional earth straps now Theo. But wherever you are uncertain you have a proper earth on something like a relay or FCM, the easiest thing to do IMO is to obtain a long wire/lead with a crocodile clip at each end and provide an "auxilliary earth" to that item using this wire/lead. And then just see if this cures the problem. (Rather than removing things and sanding connections in the HOPE that you may cure an unseen/unconfirmed earthing fault.)

Theo, unless you have a $400-$500 meter those low ohm readings will be meaningless. The resistance reading could be more than indicated or it could just be 0. Even with a good meter, you have to subtract the resistance of the probe leads from the total. If your meter has a "Relative" button then press the two probes together then press Relative. The meter will then be zeroed. But like I said, don't rely on the readings too much unless its something like a Fluke brand meter.

It was a ZAR R400.00 meter which equates to about $60
Will have a look tonight as there is a button but I am not sure if it is a "relative" button. .....

Best way of checking for suspected bad earths is to rig up some jumpers to earth. Meters are pretty useless for testing for that sort of thing even if you have a good one.

Agree with Alex/Rockcrawler here.

I recommend using "ohms settings" on cheap/ordinary multimeters simply as a means of getting a rough idea of whether you "are likely to have good continuity" or "definitely don't have continuity".

You MUST at the same time know the shortcomings associated with using "a piddly 1.5V battery inside a cheap electronic meter" to establish the ability of a circuit to carry currents that are usually hundreds and perhaps thousands of times higher than the meter's tiny test current.

 

[rockcrawler]

And mine says "1." (rather than "0.L." which must be the South African version of saying it ) to show an opencircuit like that. But digital meters always have trouble with what to say for an open-circuit. They want to say "a very very very high ohms value" and if I was designing such a meter I'd get it to display "99999999999" right across the screen for this reading! (Perhaps Alex can tell us why they don't actually do this?)

"O.L." stands for Over Limit. "1" means "High". I have meters that display either, just a preference of the manufacturer.

Odd!

Australians would recognise how cheap my meter is because "Dick Smith Electronics" is an Australian company - yet my meter correctly reads "zero ohms" for a "dead short" like that:

Yes - on the display though. If you could look into the "brain" of it you would see that it is reading resistance of the leads (how accurately is another matter), it just can't display the result on the display. It may however be added to the result of a higher ohm reading when taking an actual measurement. With low ohms readings you can be off by 10% because of the display. Resistance of leads can be anywhere from 0.05 to 0.6 ohms. Add more if the connectors and tips aren't squeaky clean. A good meter will never read "0" when shorting the probes.

edit: I think I may be being a bit cryptic again in my laziness

Lets say we are on the 200 ohm range and the display says "000" when shorting the probes. If the resistance of the leads was 0.5 ohm and you then took an actual measurement of 9.5 ohm it would read "010".

 

[tmarx]

Thanks again guys.It is feeling a bit like 2 steps forward and 1 step backwards at the moment ...

Sounds like you have enough straps to me Theo ...

Well I fitted an additional 2 off the batt neg- and a few thinner "jumpers from the chassis to the body so if I didn't at first, I definately have now.

Tested again and continuity for everything tested previously measures at 0.3/4 ohms . Thinking(hoping) that possibly I have a broken wire(s) between FCR and FCM?? Anyway I could test this without damaging wires (eg by using scotch locks etc) ?

 

[watrob]

Hi tmarx,

You said originally the negative rail in your FCR was burnt and you had it repaired. I would trace along the negative wire from your plug on your wiring loom that connected to the FCR backwards, as you say in the above thread that you feel this negative wire is open.

 

[lostmarbles]

.... Thinking(hoping) that possibly I have a broken wire(s) between FCR and FCM?? Anyway I could test this without damaging wires (eg by using scotch locks etc) ?

I had to "google" the term "scotch lock" to see what you were referring to Theo - but now I know - NO! I would NEVER use those horrible things ANYWHERE AT ALL!!!!!!!!!

Using such a device ..... that has a "blade" that cuts through the insulation of two wires and simultaneously bites into their copper strands to provide a path for electricity to flow between them .......is likely to weaken the wires concerned - and provides "an UNRELIABLE electrical joint" IMO. - - - I HATE them!

In fact I'd rate them as one of the worst electrical inventions of all time Theo!

I wish I could pop round and just take a look at your cruiser to try and figure this one out!

The solution has got to be simple. (The term - "Can't see the forest for the trees" - comes to mind. ..........Whatever this is will surely be staring you in the face! ....................... But don't feel silly Theo - We've all been thru that! Myself included - And MANY times!)

I've never had to resort to this - but if desperate, I could consider probing through a wire's insulation with a needle - and then using a meter probe on that needle to ascertain whether or not that section of wire is live.

But a fresh mind on the job would probably be best at this stage.

You don't have any electrical gurus in your club (who ideally would have been following this saga) that you can now call on to help you?



PS. I can see your problem in not wanting to try and bring someone (an autoelectrician) up to speed on "EDIC systems" - but you may need to try and track someone down now. (Having FCR and FCM spares on hand should make their job "a piece of cake" if they have any competence in their chosen trade.)

 

[tmarx]

The solution has got to be simple. (The term - "Can't see the forest for the trees" - comes to mind. ..........Whatever this is will surely be staring you in the face! ..)

You are so right Tom .

If it wasn't so embarrasing it would actually be funny

But credit where it is due: JT aka Teebag around here, came around and we set about testing just about every wire on the truck. The only "dead" one we found was that untill a few pages ago, "unknown" brown on the FCR. It was being "fed" by a white+blue and I kept remembering Tom's post about it being a live feed off the + via the fusable link. Unfortunately the wires on and around my fusable link didn't match or have any continuity with that white+blue wire that feeds the brown . Eventually we traced it completely away from the pax firewall going under the dash where it connects to a single black wire. Then we started searching for and testing every single black wire in the engine bay untill we found an onplugged single female connector close to the fusable links. At last we found continuity. Now all we needed was to confirm that it needed a single male connector directly from the + terminal. Fortunately I found some pics of it and we were able to piece together what had happened due to bad crimping. We even found the original wire and crimped another male connector on there,as a temporary fix. I will redo the entire fusable links asap. With that done and the by now flattish battery charged, she fired up and switched off in the manner befitting a BJ 42

Thanks to all the guys who helped to get us back on track. Your efforts are very much appreciated by someone like me, who in tackling this project, has probably bitten off a bit more than he can chew, ... on his own


Edit: Owing to the lateness of the hour, I will test the compatabillity of the 2 x 56090 FCR's tomorrow, in order to complete this thread !

 

[lostmarbles]

Cool

Glad you eventually got to the bottom of it Theo.

At least you've gained "a load of spares" as well as "a lot of knowledge" in the process ..... so none of it was wasted really.




....and I've learnt what O.L means on a digital multimeter as well as gaining a lot of knowledge about how our EDIC systems work!

 

[tmarx]

You bet TOM !

Well I'd hate to be responsible for you wasting your time and money Theo. So I'm not going to put my neck on the line and say I'm sure.

But, it looks to me that if you were to grab that image off Sandcruiser's site showing the muddy internals of his 28590-56090 FCR, rotate it 90 degrees and place it alongside the image you posted of the internals of your 28590-57010 FCR ( post #22) - they'd be identical!

This morning I fitted the 28590- 56090 to my 28590-57010 spec truck and it ran just fine - no difference at all

 

[tmarx]

..PS. And Theo - Why do you assume you can fit your FCM with its arm in any random position and that it will automatically put itself in the correct position (stop position) when you connect that connector? Perhaps it should do that ...... (I need help )

Well I didn't forget and also tested this. Using a + feed to the M spade, I manipulated the edic arm to stop in the "run" position. I then left the ignition in the off position and reconnected the FCM connector. As soon as I did so, the Edic arm moved to the STOP position as it is supposed to do ..

 

[lostmarbles]

You bet TOM !



This morning I fitted the 28590- 56090 to my 28590-57010 spec truck and it ran just fine - no difference at all

Well I didn't forget and also tested this. Using a + feed to the M spade, I manipulated the edic arm to stop in the "run" position. I then left the ignition in the off position and reconnected the FCM connector. As soon as I did so, the Edic arm moved to the STOP position as it is supposed to do ..

I always appreciate "enquiring minds" who not only want to get their cruisers running again but also want to add to the "cruiser-knowledge-bank".

thanks Theo

 

[DrSlug]

Well I didn't forget and also tested this. Using a + feed to the M spade, I manipulated the edic arm to stop in the "run" position. I then left the ignition in the off position and reconnected the FCM connector. As soon as I did so, the Edic arm moved to the STOP position as it is supposed to do ..

Argh, well after following this thread and read several others, I am still trying to work out what is wrong with mine.

I've carried out all the tests, and beside the FCM moving to OI position on turning the key to start, it remains there. It does work when I move by linking up to the M connection, but nothing else. The relay appears to be working as per the clicking tests detailed in here.

Any other ideas? I've just replaced some suspect battery connections as well, but nothing

 

[DrSlug]

Argh, well after following this thread and read several others, I am still trying to work out what is wrong with mine.

I've carried out all the tests, and beside the FCM moving to OI position on turning the key to start, it remains there. It does work when I move by linking up to the M connection, but nothing else. The relay appears to be working as per the clicking tests detailed in here.

Any other ideas? I've just replaced some suspect battery connections as well, but nothing

Well scrap all of the above guys. After getting very frustrated I started checking continuity between the plug feeding the FCR and the ignition circuit. With half the dash off and myself nearly conceding that I would have to get someone to come and have a look, I was sitting in the truck staring at the open relay. After about five minutes after the last time I had turned the key and the motor had gone over to the OI position, the IG relay clicked and presto, the motor moved back to the stop position.

So I turned my attention back to the FCR box, after turning the key to the start postion, then waiting then going back to off, the same happened again, no movement at the FCM. I gently tapped the IG relay section, and click, the motor moved to the stop position. So off to the wreckers tomorrow to find a replacement, let's hope all goes well

 

[lostmarbles]

.... no movement at the FCM. I gently tapped the IG relay section, and click, the motor moved to the stop position. So off to the wreckers tomorrow to find a replacement, let's hope all goes well

An FCM is a small item to post in the mail Nick so if I was you I'd just email some wreckers and get them to send you pictures of what they've got. And when you find one that looks good externally ... just get them to post it to you.

What with people in both of our countries "replacing diesels with V8s" and "replacing EDIC systems with pull-knobs" .... success should be assured.

 

[donniefj55]

Hi I know this might seem silly to reply to an old thread but I found it very interesting and informative. Great stuff this is why I love mud I have a 2h diesel that I've had fully rebuilt with only 20 thousand kms on it that I need to find a 45 or 40 to put it in once I get my 55 going. I'll need to get the relay