Strange Edic/Fuel Control relay woes: Please help

[watrob]

Still in the depths of rebuild despair

BTW Theo supports the Springboks, and has banned me from his house whenever they play the All Blacks...

...something about them loosing whenever I am there in my AB jersey

Hi Teebag, Understand the ban.

Hey, I have decided to redo my rebuild, building a new complete gal'ed chassis, with another 2H diesel, 5 speed, coil springs & seperate shocks all round, etc. Just going to lift my tub off and put it on the new rolling chassis.

Hey tmarx have you fixed that edic motor problem yet!

 

[tmarx]

The news is not good ...

I started with this test IH8MUD.com - View Single Post - EDIC Relay Oil Pressure Timer Repair first and there was no clicking of any kind at all .

Then I did the resistance test as suggested by Tom. I used a digital multimeter and these are the results. (I do not claim to understand them )

Resistance:
S - M = 0,00 which then changes to 0,L(default reading when switching on the meter )

ST - E = 10,25 k ohms


With + voltage to ST and IG and - to E:
Resistance
S-M = 0,00
0,I - M = O,L

In order to rule out FCM failure(and to satisfy Tom) I put some + voltage to the FCM,s M terminal and moved the edic arm back to the original "Stop" position. Before doing this I moved it to the drive position and made sure that the connecting rod was 100% positioned between the marks. I did adjust the lenth of the rod by about 2mm. So the FCM motor operates as it should .

Disconnecting the starter solenoid in order to avoid cranking the engine also showed no movement on the arm.

The only possible "fault" that I could find was this broken line(on the circut board) in the bottom right corner which I will try to solder and then test again but I( am not holding my breath.

I will order a new FCR tomorrow

 

[rockcrawler]

The only possible "fault" that I could find was this broken line(on the circut board) in the bottom right corner which I will try to solder and then test again but I( am not holding my breath.

Solder a wire jumper across that pcb trace tmarx, using just solder is not strong enough in such a case (although I can't really make out which bit you are talking about).

edit: the trace that runs around the board is earth.

 

[rockcrawler]

Yeah. I sometimes wish I had been more imaginative with my username.

I like names that make it hard for people to take you seriously and that make people puzzle over your choice (and over what sort of person you REALLY are.)

For instance - the person who chose "ratpuke" did well in my books.

When I chose mine it was because I could not think of anything else at the time and because I always get a mental block when trying to think of a username. I'm actually not into "rockcrawling" at all. Just the thought of subjecting my BJ40 to such treatment gives me nightmares of tearing half my gearbox or other useful pieces off my truck.

 

[herbs]

Are we sure that the fuel control relay is getting input signals from the keyswitch? My BJ 42 has a good FCR and edic motor but still won't move the edic connecting rod, going to look into the FCR inputs when I get the chance.

 

[watrob]

Hi tmarx, I see that is 12 volt FCR, you mentioned you did not have power on some of your other fuses also, did any of those fuses blow or did you fix that problem?

If the earth rail burnt on that FCR I was just wondering if you are running a dual 12 volt battery system and they got connect in serial = 24 volts or a reverse polarity for a second.

If you cannot fix it I hope you can get a secondhand one because even secondhand they are not cheap.

 

[lostmarbles]

Solder a wire jumper across that pcb trace tmarx, using just solder is not strong enough in such a case (although I can't really make out which bit you are talking about).

edit: the trace that runs around the board is earth.

Hey - I may have something positive to contribute here. (Well at least I think it is positive. )

If you take apart a telephone cable (the multi-stranded type where each individual strand is insulated with a different colour plastic) you get a wiring size that is ideal for use in bridging over "breaks" in a printed circuit. (And I'd bridge between EXISTING soldered-connections rather than trying to solder onto the thin copper itself - and I'd only attempt this with a soldering iron designed for such delicate work too. (Having a small tip that heats rapidly when you pull the trigger.)

Apart from this "little gem of information" - I'll sit back and observe ..... hoping to learn a thing or two as well - because as I've said before - the EDIC/Fuel-control is rather a mystery to me really.

 

[lostmarbles]

... I'll sit back and observe .....

I hate is when I say things like this - and then can't stop myself from getting back into the discussion.

I was thinking about your situation Theo while outside working on my cruiser just now.... And I decided to grab hold of a BJ42 28590-57010 fuel control relay that I happen to have lying around.
My aim was to do some tests on it - but alas - I see the connector spade-terminals don't correspond to those from my B-engine manual. So we have no way of knowing which terminals are which on this 28590-57010 relay! (And it has 10 male-spades compared to only 8 on the BJ40 relay.)

Here I'll show you what I mean:



(These images portray the connectors on the ends of the FCR pigtails)


So does anyone have a BJ42 FSM showing how to test Theo's FCR (or information to say which spade-terminal is which on his relay)?

Edit.. If I look at the wiring colourcodes on Theo's FCR then I can label the spades as follows (assuming the BJ40 colourcodes are used again - which is likely to be true - but not 100% certain):


Edit 27 Oct - Added coloured circles to show wiring colourcodes on pigtail wires

But testing between S and M (using this as reference for where these terminals are located) and I get an open-circuit (not zero ohms!).

..................

 

[rockcrawler]

Hey - I may have something positive to contribute here. (Well at least I think it is positive. )

If you take apart a telephone cable (the multi-stranded type where each individual strand is insulated with a different colour plastic) you get a wiring size that is ideal for use in bridging over "breaks" in a printed circuit. (And I'd bridge between EXISTING soldered-connections rather than trying to solder onto the thin copper itself - and I'd only attempt this with a soldering iron designed for such delicate work too. (Having a small tip that heats rapidly when you pull the trigger.)

Apart from this "little gem of information" - I'll sit back and observe ..... hoping to learn a thing or two as well - because as I've said before - the EDIC/Fuel-control is rather a mystery to me really.

That's spot on Tom. Also that telephone cable is great stuff, I normally have a few meters of the thick multicore stuff around which is a great source for it.

 

[rockcrawler]

On my FCR I don't have a cable on the position labeled "?", although there is provision for one.

 

[lostmarbles]

On my FCR I don't have a cable on the position labeled "?", although there is provision for one.

Thanks Alex.

I put a spade terminal there (in that "special compartment" in the centre of the connector) because this image in my B-engine FSM shows one there (even though it isn't labelled):



But I've just gone outside and checked the actual FCR on my 1979 BJ40 and it doesn't use that "special compartment" (no spade terminals inside it) either. So that image in the FSM is wrong for both of us.

And my 1979 fuel-control/EDIC set-up looks to be the same as your 1977 set-up.

So I've removed that spade from the earlier images.



PS. At least we BJ40-owners seem to be streets ahead of the BJ42 owners in having information at our fingertips for faultfinding on OUR FCRs and FCMs. ...... he he he.......

 

[tmarx]

Huge thanks again Tom. I love it when guys like you find it difficult not to try and help a fellow mudder

..(And it has 10 male-spades compared to only 8 on the BJ40 relay.)

..

Yes it does but the FCR connector on the loom side only has 9 female ones. The Odd one out IIRC was that Blue & white striped one. I also used the wire colours to label the spades :whoops:

And now Toy says they no longer have stock of the FCR which they did last week !! ITr will now take at least 28 days ex Japan

 

[tmarx]

Are we sure that the fuel control relay is getting input signals from the keyswitch? My BJ 42 has a good FCR and edic motor but still won't move the edic connecting rod, going to look into the FCR inputs when I get the chance.

I was worried about this and so I disconnected the starter solenoid and started from the FCM. Disconnecting the FCM connector I applied 12V to the “M”(White) terminal which turns the motor. The corresponding wire on the loom connector is the Blue with red circles. With the ignition in the Start position there was no power coming through from the FCR. I then disconnected the FCR and went to the FCR connector on the loom side to see if I was getting power here.

In order to try and make some sense of this and using the codes that Tom labeled the FCR wires with , I found the following on the corresponding connectors(loom side). Sorry Tom , it was the old testing lamp again .

First I clamped the Neg(-) terminal:

Ignition turned to ACC: nothing lights up.


Ignition turned to On: and the corresponding “feeding” terminal for IG(In this case Black & Yellow which I had as the oil sensor wire) lights up

Ignition turned to START: and the corresponding “feeding” terminals for ST(In this case the thicker black & white) and IG(as above) lights up .

Then I clamped the Positive terminal:

With the ignition turned to ACC: and the corresponding “feeding” terminals for ST, IG , Oil and E lights up whereas ST also clicks the Starter relay.

With the ignition turned to ON: and the corresponding “feeding” terminals ST and Oil light6s up whereas Start also clicks the starter relay

With the ignition turned to START: and only the corresponding “feeding” terminals for Oil and E lights up .

 

[watrob]

Hi tmarx, what sort of dollars do they want for the FCR from Japan?

 

[tmarx]

Current rates about Aussie $ 300 (ZAR 1800.00 incl), but I don't care anymore! It has been 18 months and I wanted to be driving her(in the intended manner) in about 3 weeks, even if topless

 

[Legend]

Theo, Keith is in Aus (Sydney) at the moment and will be back on Thursday. Ask him to bring it in.

 

[lostmarbles]

Hi Theo.

Thanks for all the work you've done here. You have added greatly to my understanding of this part of our vehicles (although I'm certainly not fully understanding it all just yet).

I've modified that image I posted earlier to show the BJ42 FCR pigtail wire colourcodes (in the same style that Rockcrawler used in his thread on the BJ40 FCR).

And I think I may have the labelling correct for your 10-spade FCR connector because I did the following tests on my spare 28590-57010 FCR (attempting to copy what Rockcrawler did on the BJ40 FCR) and got the same "clicking"that he did (although I didn't have the FCR opened-up to be able to see where the noises were actually coming from inside):



Connecting negative (earth) to E and then connecting positive (12V +) to IG resulted in an audible click.

Then (in addition) connecting negative to "Oil" got another audible click.

Then (in addition) touching positive to ST got another "click", and after removing that probe (off the ST spade) ..... I got another audible click after 8 seconds had elapsed.

How does this series of tests work on yours?



Edit...In post #22 you said you tried to do Rockcrawler's tests but did you actually do it as I describe here and with the spade terminals identified as above?.

And I have observed before that the wiring colourcodes (loom versus pigtail) don't always correspond at the same position (female to male spade) on a connector. (As I recall, I found this occuring with at least one position on my voltage regulator connector.)

And I acknowledge what you say about you finding one of those "unknown"wires (the blue one with the white stripe - you think) having no connecting wire at the female side (loom-side). ......

And you give a "confused smilie"at the end of your lamp tests (in the yellow type above) but you shouldn't be confused there:

.... Sorry Tom , it was the old testing lamp again .

First I clamped the Neg(-) terminal:

Ignition turned to ACC: nothing lights up.


Ignition turned to On: and the corresponding “feeding” terminal for IG(In this case Black & Yellow which I had as the oil sensor wire) lights up

Ignition turned to START: and the corresponding “feeding” terminals for ST(In this case the thicker black & white) and IG(as above) lights up .

Then I clamped the Positive terminal:

With the ignition turned to ACC: and the corresponding “feeding” terminals for ST, IG , Oil and E lights up whereas ST also clicks the Starter relay.

With the ignition turned to ON: and the corresponding “feeding” terminals ST and Oil light6s up whereas Start also clicks the starter relay

With the ignition turned to START: and only the corresponding “feeding” terminals for Oil and E lights up .

The "oil connection"on the FCR loom connector is connected to EARTH via your "EDIC oil pressure switch" so it will light your lamp whenever you "probe it" with your other test lamp lead clamped on the +Ve battery terminal (and do nothing when you're clamped onto the -Ve terminal) -regardless of key position. The only time this would change is when your engine is running and has developed oil pressure to open that switch.

The "ST connection"on the FCR loom gets fed with 12V +Ve only when your key is in "start" (not in any other key position). It is also connected to earth through the starter relay coil and this "connected to earth" feature will influence your test lamp behaviour in all key positions other than "start".

Etc etc. All your lamp results can be explained in this way and present no surprises.

(Note that when you have your lamp attached to the -Ve battery terminal, your lamp will light only if the other lead hits a +12V live terminal!)

 

[rockcrawler]

Well done Tom

It was bugging me that the BJ42 crowd was more or less stabbing in the dark with their FCR diagnosis problems. Now that mystery has had some major light shone on it to. Good on you!

 

[tmarx]

Huge thanks Tom !

Hi Theo....
How does this series of tests work on yours?



..

The FCR has been soldered and I will do those tests as soon as I get home from work !

 

[tmarx]

Ok Tom here we go and thanks again

..
Connecting negative (earth) to E and then connecting positive (12V +) to IG resulted in an audible click.

..

I did not get any click at all and my FCR was open so I would have been able to see any movement even if for some reason I could not hear a click. Side note it did click when I accidently touched the Pos(+) to ST

..Then (in addition) connecting negative to "Oil" got another audible click.

..

I was not sure if you meant connecting an "additional" Neg(-) or using the existing Neg(-) which was clamped to the E already, so I did both to cover all bases and there was no clicking of any kind.

..
Then (in addition) touching positive to ST got another "click", and after removing that probe (off the ST spade) ..... I got another audible click after a number of seconds had elapsed.

..

Once again I was not sure if you meant using an additional(2nd) Pos(+) or just the existing Pos(+) which was already clamped to IG at that stage, so once again I did both and everytime the Pos(+) touched or broke contact with ST there was an immediate click.


A further side note which may or may not be significant. I have noticed that everytime if I turn the key/ignition to ON when the Glowplug relay(s) click etc , I can hear a definate "schweeet" sound coming from the main glowplug relay. This relay Definately clicks after the glowlight goes off etc but I have not been able to find a bodyground from it at all. I even tried running an earth to its body without any luck. The bolts securing it etc are earthed though. Dunno how significant this is ??