Stop changing air filters, your killing your engines!

[zuluzeugma]

Is anyone else intrigued that a filter maker would go to all the effort and travel to train people to NOT change their filter? That's not the typical attitude from a company that makes disposable products.

agreed

 

[ranger]

Well I can attest to the fact that if your air fliter is plugged you will fail emissions tests. It does make a huge difference in the combustion process.

I've also heard the same arguement on oil filters, don't change them every 3K. Supposedly they operate more efficiently when they get dirty. Don't know if its true, but I'll change my oil filter every 3K.
Changing the air and oil filters to me is cheap insurance.

 

[TOBASH]

The real issue is the size of the particulate matter and the frequency of oil changes.

Dust smaller than a certain amount will not make a difference, as it is too small to wedge between moving parts and score. So a new filter will be fine if it screens down to those minute particles.

If you get enough crap, it will build up in the oil and frequent oil changes help that.

Let's not forget that most dust is carbon based, and so are deposits on the valves that eventually break off. Valve deposits don't score engines.

I have run K&N for years, and have never had any issues on any of the cars I have driven. My failures are rust issues or cars hit by other drivers that have totalled my vehicles.

I wash and re-oil once a year, like clockwork.

My 0.02. Your mileage may vary.

As far as increase or decrease mileage....not nowadays. Air sensors meter the air inflow and instantaneously adjust for optimum fuel flow. In a car with a carb, dirty filters could not be compensated for so mileage suffered.

 

[nuclearlemon]

When I was into Nissan's instead of Cruisers, the big rage was to buy the K&N filter for the stock air box and reap all the POWER benefits... Yeah... Uh huh... what we actually got was a malfunctioning MAF. The oil from the filter contaminated the wires on the sensor causing issues with the computer.

The most telling thing about the K&N though was this: When I replaced the OEM paper filter (which is also oiled BTW) there was NO dirt in the box or in the air tube feeding the engine. After running the K&N for about 6 months I noticed that there was a dirty oily film all over the inside of the box and inside the air tube. The K&N was allowing not only oil, but LOTS of dust past itself, and into the engine. I pulled the filter out, cleaned the box and air tube, and went back to an OEM filter. The box and air tube are still clean to this day.

The OEM has done it's home work on filters. Stick with stock and change it when they say and you'll be fine.

You're over oiling your k & n.

 

[Coolerman]

You're over oiling your k & n.

Nope, never even bought an oil re-charge kit for the filter as I only ran it 6 months. I was not the only person who experienced this. Google K&N and you will see that the MAF issue has cropped up many times. Our club came to the conclusion that K&N may have sent out a batch of filters from the factory that were over oiled.

The oil was not the reason I stopped using it. It was the amount of dirt the filter let pass that bothered me.

 

[GarnerFJ40]

The third top industrial investor for Donaldson at around $148M is State Farm Auto Insurance

Hmmmm....

So are they hoping that people will heed Donaldson's advice and keep their vehicles in better shape, so it leads to less accidents, thus reducing rates (cough...lesspayouts/samerates...cough)

Or are they hoping Donaldson will dupe everyone, nobody changes their filters, more accidents, and higher rates?

You got me... I'm a scientific man, I'd like to see some data...

 

[Mtrunner]

We can go on and on until we can get a hold of some data.

Let's assume the "stop changing the old air filter" is groundless nonsense.
I can fathom a company lying to me in order to make me purchase their product.
But a company lying to me so I don't purchase their product makes no sense whatsoever.

Let's assume there is truth to this claim.
If they are telling the truth, good for them, a company taking the high road. Truth that is just too honest to believe.

Either way, this is some interesting information.

 

[Downey]

My interesting tidbit to this conversation is that I use to pit Ivan Stewart just outside the "silt beds", just north of Las Vegas. Ivan could run the silt beds for about 10 minutes before totally clogging a massive air filter. My theory is:
(a) the bigger, the better
(b) the cleaner the better
Is it not K&N that claims that dirt/dust that sticks to the filter surface actually improves the filtering action?

 

[Trollhole]

I had the good fortune of attending a short course run by Donaldson air filters at work the other day. It open my eyes to a few new facts that I thought I would pass on.

* A clean air filter doesn't catch dirt, it takes time for the holes in the filter media to become blocked by larger pieces of dust. I was aware there was a run in period but didn't realize it was so big, a large machine working under the most extreme conditions in a coal mine will take over 100 Hours before it's filters are blocked enough to become effective. Cruisers are not big machines, there is a big difference in types of material used in air filters and micron size along with number of pleats

* A quality paper element filter will hold nearly twice it's weight in dust before it is blocked. Your filter probably isn't anywhere near as dirty as you think it is. What kind of dust? Coal, sawdust red clay, sand, etc...? So many factors and types. I don't think you could pack an 80 series with dirt and it be twice what the filter weighs, considering all the metal in it.

* Stop changing filters, If a piece of equipment working in a coal mine takes 100 hours to prime it's filters so I can only guess how long a car would take. Don't change based on time or distance traveled, install a restriction indicator and change when the indicator show a large enough restriction. By far the best advice since restriction will mean a loss in power.

* Power loss due to blocked filters is a little bit of an urban legend. Tests run by Cummins showed that even the most sensitive operator will not be able to notice a loss of power until it exceeds 10-11%, a filter that has just trigged a restriction indicator will account for about 5% max loss of power. So basically any power increase noticed after changing a filter is probably in your head. Are they talking about big rigs or every day drivers? Someone operating a bulldozer is probably not going to notice a 5% decrease, someone with a cruiser who is trying to pass a car just might. I can say I can tell a different in power over using a dirty compared to new. Maybe I'm crazy.

* Don't tap filters (even gently) to clean them, this can crack the sealant between the paper element and the filter end caps. Clean only with LOW pressure air, remember you don't want to dislodge the dust that is blocking the large holes. Also remember that the filter isn't as dirty as you think it is. Most sealants I've seen used are a urethane based product, I would highly doubt todays filters would have issues with taping them. Maybe a big rig would though?

* Make sure your air box seals are in good shape. Air will always take the path of least resistance, Your engine will draw massive amounts of air through the tiniest of gaps, size doesn't matter the air speed through the gap will increase resulting in unfiltered air entering your engine. Ain't that the truth. I've seen some hokey air filter boxes in my time.

* A large engine (that being 40 litres capacity and up) will only require to draw half a cup (125 Grams)of dust through it's entire life before it is "dusted" and will require replacement, So I can only guess at how much a car engine could tolerate.

Hope I have helped save people a few bucks, both on air filters and engines.

I still think it's some good advice, though I wouldn't use it unless I had a restriction indicator. IMO One question though. If filters are not doing a good job new. Why wouldn't automotive manufactures make ones that do? Maybe rolling them outside before installing them. I still think we are talking about two totally different types of air cleaners. IMO Good stuff. I'm always willing to learn something new.

 

[TOBASH]

I still think it's some good advice, though I wouldn't use it unless I had a restriction indicator. IMO One question though. If filters are not doing a good job new. Why wouldn't automotive manufactures make ones that do? Maybe rolling them outside before installing them. I still think we are talking about two totally different types of air cleaners. IMO Good stuff. I'm always willing to learn something new.

Well TrollHole:

What I'm waiting for are Big Gay Air Filters.

Best,

T

 

[haystax]

Do you guys even know what a Donaldson type filter looks like? I highly doubt that many of you who are attacking this poor SOB even have a clue about any filters or engines other than your precious Land Cruisers. You would also be well advised to consider what a K&N does in terms of micron particulate size as well as total surface area and those two factors relative to airflow and performance and engine longevity - you will probably throw away your K&N's if your ego would let you if you knew the real numbers.

What the OP is failing to mention is that a donaldson has dual filter elements - a paper type outer and a foam or paper inner secondary element. The inner element will filter down to ??? microns depending on spec and the outer will catch the majority of dirt and dust and will hold a surprising amount of until performance is noticeably affected.

John Deere specifies that the air filters should not be cleaned until the on-board sensor tells the operator there is sufficient restriction and then a new element should be installed. Case IH recommends a 400 hour service interval on much of our equipment. Few gas engines that I know of have a air intake restriction indicator but that is standard equipment on almost all diesels. It may look filthy but the consensus is to let it be.

The rational if probably that service techs can generally do more harm than good by over-servicing and denting the housing and tearing the pleats - I have noticed that firsthand with our guys. These filters are installed on 90%+ of industrial machines and engines - just not your personal vehicles so STFU and maybe learn a little before such bashing next time

 

[nuclearlemon]

Do you guys even know what a Donaldson type filter looks like? I

What the OP is failing to mention is that a donaldson has dual filter elements - a paper type outer and a foam or paper inner secondary element. The inner element will filter down to ??? microns depending on spec and the outer will catch the majority of dirt and dust and will hold a surprising amount of until performance is noticeably affected.

Not to bash you, but donaldson is a manufacturer , not a type of filter. some applications take dual filters...most do not. donaldson makes all different kinds of filters. land cruisers do not take a dual element air filter. and yes, i do know what donaldson filters look like...i work for a donaldson dealer. we have a trailer full of donaldson filters. we stock over 300 different donaldson filters and only about twelve of them are dual element.

 

[Trollhole]

I didn't post for an argument, These are facts presented to be by a technical representive from the donaldson company, the largest producer of air filters in the world, the brand which every major machinery producer fits as standard from factory.

These are not opinions of mine, these are facts presented by donaldson, take from them what you will. I will note however that no one has as yet produced a FACT that has disproven anything that donaldson said.

I don't think anyone is arguing just stating opinions. An argument might be where someone attacks someone.

Donaldson Company, Inc. - Global Home Page
You will find they are a well respected multi-national company.

The post was someone passing on information they had been given and wanted to pass on for everyone's benefit. Read it and let everyone know why you disagree (if you do), stop attacking someone making the effort.

I still don't see the attacks. Just opinions not as if anyone is calling him a tard or idiot or telling him to stfu.

The rational if probably that service techs can generally do more harm than good by over-servicing and denting the housing and tearing the pleats - I have noticed that firsthand with our guys. These filters are installed on 90%+ of industrial machines and engines - just not your personal vehicles so STFU and maybe learn a little before such bashing next time

Now there's an attack. JK


I'm just skeptical that these statements are for automotive use. From what I have been able to find on the web is all related to big machinery. I would also like to think in the 20 years I have been wrenching I would have heard something about this before now. But I'm always willing to learn.

Good stuff on here. Let's keep it going.

 

[haystax]

Not to bash you, but donaldson is a manufacturer , not a type of filter. some applications take dual filters...most do not. donaldson makes all different kinds of filters. land cruisers do not take a dual element air filter. and yes, i do know what donaldson filters look like...i work for a donaldson dealer. we have a trailer full of donaldson filters. we stock over 300 different donaldson filters and only about twelve of them are dual element.

Yeah I know they are a manufacturer and not a "style" and I know that you work for a OTR truck dealership and sell thousands of parts - you caught me generalizing but then again a truck air filter has more in common with a dual element industrial type air cleaner than it does with an automotive style in terms of design and application.

So what is the official stance from the OTR guys on air filter service?? How many fleets and owner operators adhere to the manufacturers service interval vs. tried and true mileage and hour meter intervals based on experience and practice? I know our trucks are on a shorter service interval than Pete and CAT suggest.

What this boils down to is OVER - SERVICING IS GENERALLY MORE HARMFUL THAN UNDER - SERVICING IN INDUSTRIAL APPLICATIONS I have heard the same type of presentation and it is directed at removing as many variables from a service and PM standpoint as possible and letting the machine dictate to a certain extent service interval in order to ensure maximum uptime.

Does this carryover to automotive and recreational type vehicles??? I don't know, I replace the air filters on our Powerstrokes about every 12K and the restriction indicator has never really shown that is necessary. I tap out the dirt from our machinery but very carefully, I don't let the hired guys blow out any filters except for the AC/cab filters and I would never run a K&N style on any engine we own. I would consider a custom intake from a place like UMP and run a dual element Donaldson setup in any vehicle that was to run in extremely dusty environents, i.e. an expedition build would be an ideal candidate but probably not your weekend Cruiser.

 

[BEE-JAY42]

Brilliant, some sane debates at last. I'll do my best to answer some of the more relevant questions and points raised.

*Why would Donaldson convince people to buy less of their filters (this was my first question to the tech bloke)? Basically they want to keep the running cost of using Donaldson filters as low as possible, Low running costs keeps people happy and they will continue to buy your product. Also by teaching people to correctly service filters they are increasing the life span of engines, which is another good selling point when trying to sell filters.

*Why do vehicle manufactures tell you to change air filters at regular intervals? Because you car doesn't have a restriction indicator so you can't tell when a filter is causing a restriction. Car manufactures also put trouble free motoring above engine longevity. And they do want you to buy more filters.

*You can't compare heavy ming equipment and cars. While not being exactly the same thing just remember filters are filter and engines are still engines regardless of the application. Foreign particle matter (commonly grouped together and called "dust") will do the same damage to a very large engine as it will to a very small engine (Clearances in massive engines are still the same as clearances in small engines). And while machinery has feature like cyclonic precleaners and foam inner filters the paper element is pretty much the same thing regardless of the application.

*If filters are not doing a good job new. Why wouldn't automotive manufactures make ones that do? They do, now. Donaldson have just introduced a pre clogged filter. Basically as it was explained to me they spray the filter with an incredibly fine polymer based spray that blocks the larger holes.

*Are they talking about big rigs or every day drivers? Someone operating a bulldozer is probably not going to notice a 5% decrease. Not true, some of the operators are very in tune with their machines, they know what they are capable of and they know when they are not achieving it. They do spend 12 hours a day in them, not many cruiser drivers can say the same. If they can't reliably spot a 10% power loss what chance have we got?


I too was a religious changer of filters before this display, but I must admit it was only because I didn't know any better, new is good and old is bad was the basis of my thinking. I have yet to see any plausible reason why a new clean filter is better than a used one (And by used I mean dirty but not yet causing an inlet restriction), however I have been shown by Donaldson many reasons why a used filter is better than a new one.

I will be fitting a restriction indicator and studying this myself, I challenge all non believers to do the same.

 

[Trollhole]

Good stuff

http://www.hastingsfilter.com/engineer/pdf/04-3.pdf

http://www.hastingsfilter.com/engineer/pdf/99-2.pdf

This one is basically stating what the original poster stated. Good stuff and I acutally learned a few things from it. BUt it still sounds like they are talking about big rig filters.

http://www.hastingsfilter.com/engineer/pdf/89-3R3.pdf



More info on anything filter hear.

Technical Service Bulletins - Hastings Filters

 

[Brian in Oregon]

I seriously doubt what applies for large earthmoving and mining machinery also applies to smaller passenger vehicles. These large engines generally use a Donaldson type air cleaner that has a centrifugal cleaner combined with a paper element. Much of the heavy dust is dumped into a catch cup, which is to be emptied periodically, sometimes daily. These systems can handle huge amounts of dirt before the filters need replacing.

Does this mean Donaldson is wrong? No, I think it means Donaldson is specifically referring to heavy equipment, not to passenger vehicles. The way to resolve this would be to email Donaldson and ask them iif their advice applies to heavy equipment or any vehicle of any size.

 

[BEE-JAY42]

Yes your right, large machines have cyclonic pre cleaners that dump 99% of the dust before it gets to the filter, but you've missed the point a bit.

You will be doing your engine a favour if you changed your air filter only when it is creating a restriction (regardless of what application the engine is in). A dirty filter is doing a better job of filtering the air. Simple as that.

 

[Poser]

I will be fitting a restriction indicator and studying this myself, I challenge all non believers to do the same.

Hey, Filter Boy.....




Start a thread with pictures of you Land Cruiser and where you intend on installing this restriction indicator....

 

[Brian in Oregon]

When I was into Nissan's instead of Cruisers, the big rage was to buy the K&N filter for the stock air box and reap all the POWER benefits... Yeah... Uh huh... what we actually got was a malfunctioning MAF. The oil from the filter contaminated the wires on the sensor causing issues with the computer.

The most telling thing about the K&N though was this: When I replaced the OEM paper filter (which is also oiled BTW) there was NO dirt in the box or in the air tube feeding the engine. After running the K&N for about 6 months I noticed that there was a dirty oily film all over the inside of the box and inside the air tube. The K&N was allowing not only oil, but LOTS of dust past itself, and into the engine. I pulled the filter out, cleaned the box and air tube, and went back to an OEM filter. The box and air tube are still clean to this day.

The OEM has done it's home work on filters. Stick with stock and change it when they say and you'll be fine.

I never had a problem with oil film downstream from a K&N, but then, I never over-oiled the element either. I just got tired of cleaning the filter and went back to paper elements. I'll say one thing - the K&N sure got dirty in a real hurry, compared to paper. If I was running in a very dusty environment more than once in while, I'd probably go with a K&N, which is a lot cheaper than the vastly more effective so-called Donalson type. (But you can't deny the cool factor with a Donaldson.)

Speaking of alternative air filters, back in the bad old says of volcanic ash fallout from Mt. St. Helens, it was common to duct tape out air filter lids shut. Also oil the top of the carb where the air cleaner meets it, put a bead of silicon sealant there, and squish the air cleaner into it to form a seal. Then wrap pantyhose around the paper element. And put heavy chickenwire extending past the end o the air filter and put pantyhose on that as a pre-filter (with more duct tape). I never had any problems with engines doing this, and drove in some really vile volcanic ash conditions. Whether this was overkill or not, who knows? But geez-louise, it was amazing how clogged the pre-filter got and how much ash got inside the air cleaner and onto the pantyhose, and how quickly it happened.