Steering Wander on my 82FJ, help needed!
- Thread starter merbesfield
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Before you throw money at parts that may not need replacing, as was previously stated by several folks in this thread, have someone sit in the rig and steer while you watch the steering/suspension parts. You should be able to see any slop in the drag link, rod ends, steering box, etc. I would strongly recommend you do this before spending any more money on parts, but of course that's up to you.
Drag link is easy to rebuild/tighten up. Also just because PS box was just rebuilt doesn't mean they adjusted it correctly. Given that the truck still wanders, I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in the work the shop did as that should have been clearly noticeable to them also.
Just throwing new parts on one of these rigs without identifying the problem can empty the wallet pretty quick.
Drag link is easy to rebuild/tighten up. Also just because PS box was just rebuilt doesn't mean they adjusted it correctly. Given that the truck still wanders, I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in the work the shop did as that should have been clearly noticeable to them also.
Just throwing new parts on one of these rigs without identifying the problem can empty the wallet pretty quick.
merbesfield
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- #44
Sarge and others, thanks for the tips. One thing I am sure about is the mileage. This truck is almost like new. It was owned by a 73 year old gentleman that owns a Toyota dealership. He had it for close to 25 years I believe. Many of the OEM replacement parts had his dealers name on the factory Yota parts stickers. He hardly drove it and was mostly on dirt roads so I guess the play never bothered him?
I have emailed the shop that did the work and told them I want to bring it back in. They are a specialized Cruiser shop w a very good rep so I would think they know most if not all of these factory tips and specifications. Still it is disappointing to not get it right. I will get it up in the air and do some of my own looking before taking it in. But we will get this right. Again, a Cruiser w 42K needs to drive like a new truck. I did have someone move the S Wheel today while I watched the box. It moves with the slightest turn of the wheel so it appears to be working wout play or slop. I did not check the center of range of motion to confirm that. I will try that tomorrow. I agree with you all, I don't want to just keep guessing at this point. The shop should be able to diag the problem and tell me exactly why it is wandering. It's what they do.
I have emailed the shop that did the work and told them I want to bring it back in. They are a specialized Cruiser shop w a very good rep so I would think they know most if not all of these factory tips and specifications. Still it is disappointing to not get it right. I will get it up in the air and do some of my own looking before taking it in. But we will get this right. Again, a Cruiser w 42K needs to drive like a new truck. I did have someone move the S Wheel today while I watched the box. It moves with the slightest turn of the wheel so it appears to be working wout play or slop. I did not check the center of range of motion to confirm that. I will try that tomorrow. I agree with you all, I don't want to just keep guessing at this point. The shop should be able to diag the problem and tell me exactly why it is wandering. It's what they do.
merbesfield
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- Thread starter
- #45
Dave, good catch. You are right, this does not look like it was touched. I will ask them.
merbesfield
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- Thread starter
- #46
Can anyone comment on the Allignment specs from before and after, which I posted above?
murf
Lifer
Alignment specs look fine. All within spec and similar side to side.
I hope this doesn't turn into a NLXTCY thread where a year+ of posting ideas but no solution.. LOL
I hope this doesn't turn into a NLXTCY thread where a year+ of posting ideas but no solution.. LOL
merbesfield
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- #48
Not sure what NLXTCY is but no way will this be taking that long. It was waaay to much work getting these parts together to get this far and then be unhappy. It's not in my nature to let things go half ass finished. It will get done. Thx
Good luck with getting it sorted out. I just looked at the picture you have of what you asked was a shim. It does look like a shim and if it is someone put it on the wrong side of the spring.it should be between the axle and the spring. It would be a correction shim and you only do that when you Lift a Cruiser. No other reason. Either they lengthen the shackle from I think 2-3/4 inches to something longer like 4 inches. Then the shims would make sense (if installed correctly).
I had forgotten which Cruiser you had - an original that is documented in some ways , good find .
You say the shop has a good rep and that's fine , but it doesn't change the fact that they screwed it up . If they will allow you to ask about centering everything from a baseline and prove they can do it - ok . If not , go elsewhere or find a local Cruiser head to help you . As I said , even a noob can do this at home with minimal tools - I'd just ask them to replace the fubar tie rod end , refund at least some of the alignment charges and go from there . Everyone makes mistakes and it's fine to let them try to correct it - but they have a long road to prove they will do it right . I hope we're not bashing a good vendor or shop - maybe it was just a bad day or a new employee that did the work ....?
Sarge
You say the shop has a good rep and that's fine , but it doesn't change the fact that they screwed it up . If they will allow you to ask about centering everything from a baseline and prove they can do it - ok . If not , go elsewhere or find a local Cruiser head to help you . As I said , even a noob can do this at home with minimal tools - I'd just ask them to replace the fubar tie rod end , refund at least some of the alignment charges and go from there . Everyone makes mistakes and it's fine to let them try to correct it - but they have a long road to prove they will do it right . I hope we're not bashing a good vendor or shop - maybe it was just a bad day or a new employee that did the work ....?
Sarge
merbesfield
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- Thread starter
- #51
Sarge, I understand what you are saying. I am confident the shop will continue work until they get it perfect. Yes it is unfortunate that it was not perfect the first time, but I own a business and I do understand that mistakes are made. They are never acceptable, but it is how the mistakes are handled that is the true indicator of the reputation and worth of a business IMO.
That being said here are some fresh pics and I think they are important. The link at the PS head, please excuse my lack of proper terms, has definitely NOT been touched as one member (Dave) above ponted out. It is packed w road grime and grease and clearly untouched. Maybe it didn't need adjustment?
The second item is the center arm? I should know all these terms by now, but .... Someone w more knowledge can look at it and comment, but it does not look like it was disassemble and cleaned? The top nut is freshly chipped of paint where it was tightened, but otherwise looks pretty undisturbed. I asked if it needed to be rebuilt and was told no.
Edit: thanks everyone.
That being said here are some fresh pics and I think they are important. The link at the PS head, please excuse my lack of proper terms, has definitely NOT been touched as one member (Dave) above ponted out. It is packed w road grime and grease and clearly untouched. Maybe it didn't need adjustment?
The second item is the center arm? I should know all these terms by now, but .... Someone w more knowledge can look at it and comment, but it does not look like it was disassemble and cleaned? The top nut is freshly chipped of paint where it was tightened, but otherwise looks pretty undisturbed. I asked if it needed to be rebuilt and was told no.
Edit: thanks everyone.
You are putting too much faith in this shop! Don't make the assumption that your shop looked at that drag link and dismissed it as being good. For some reason, even knowledgeable 'cruiser guys miss this. I'd bet money they never even looked at it. Check it yourself. It's easy to do. What you'll see is a lot more movement in the arm than in the rod due to slack in that joint. This is easily a DIY project. Taking it apart, cleaning it, shimming and re-assembly will take less than an hour. You know the old saying, "If you want it done right......"
merbesfield
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- Thread starter
- #53
I am trying to being diplomatic. But I now have a much better understanding what's going on. When moving the steering wheel it is very clear that there is a big delay in output from the PS point until the action reaches the DS wheel. You can see movement at the center arm TRE going toward the PS wheel and then a fraction of second later you see movement at the DS wheel. So it is easy to see why I have to SAW the steering wheel just to keep it straight.
Well said @roadstr6 !!
@merbesfield I'm betting I'm MUCH older than you and I have a difficult time NOT trusting a shop that has people I like. But, I've learned to control my temper and confront them with kindness and explain why I feel they are not properly addressing my concerns.
But, life's too short to spend more than a "moment" trying to negotiate a compromise...
I never wrenched before the purchase of 44, last March, but I decided early on to learn to do my own work on anything I could handle. I quickly discovered just how easy much of this wrenching is...
All it takes is common sense, a lot of patience (especially for old rusty nuts and bolts), hand tools, a few diagnostic tools (timing light, pressure tester, etc.), FSMs, the ability to search the internet (especially MUD) and the understanding that there are a lot of really knowledgeable members on MUD. Just ask... And always try to include visual aids (e.g. Pictures).
I can honestly say, there are tasks I won't attempt on my own (engine rebuild, etc.) and tasks I initially found too daunting to attempt... But a couple fellow MUDders (@jetranger and @allan man ) allowed me to 'help' them rebuild 44's knuckles... I can easily do that myself, next time.
44 had really dangerous steering issues when I bought her... I fixed it all myself... With some help from some MUDbrothers from anoder MUDDer.
I've also fixed a number of other issues... On my own.
If you can't get it fixed by the shop you paid, don't waste time or blood pressure on them, unless they charged for parts they didn't install (like a drag link or the drag link end, etc.), do it yourself ... MUD can and Will help!!
Small Claims Court is there to help with money recover, should the need arise.
NOW... I'm comfortable spending the night, 50 miles from the nearest help, with NO cell signal... Just me, my dogs, my GPS SPOT, my survival gear (including handgun, compass, maps, etc.), food, dog food, dog treats and water.
I know I can deal with any issues that come up, within reason, and return safely home... If I can't fix it and can't drive it there are still ways to get home... I have already had several issues in very remote places and have successfully overcome them.
Borrowing the old Home Depot slogan ( I was developing Point of Sale software for them when I retired the second time), "You can do it, we can help!"!!
Again, as I and someone else said previously, your drag link has a lot of 'new' looking threads on both ends, I would bet that it's too long... That in itself is an easy DIY fix - check the FSM. You might simply screw it to the proper length and drive it to see what difference is made.
The steering stabilizer... As someone said... Take it off and drive it and see what difference is made.
The drag link end... As someone said, rebuild it (easy job) or try the two pennies method and drive it and see what difference is made.
The "not return to center" issue... I have a feeling the steering gear box needs to be rebuilt, or at least adjusted properly.
Is it leaking around the input shaft?
Have you looked at the pedestal that the steering gear box sits on? Mine came with a homemade pedestal... Someone had broken a non-PS gearbox mount and poorly welded it back together. The incorrect angle caused all sorts of scary issues. I bought a Bill Dorry Pedestal from Georg (@orangefj45 ) and, with MUDders recommendations, removed the fender, to more easily replace the pedestal.
The proper angle is important!! A Minitruck PS gearbox can't use the original non-PS mount.
Have you looked at the rag joint? It also probably needs replacing.
I hope you resolve this... Driving with f'd up steering is scary and takes all the fun out of driving your 40.
I think you have enough ammo to politely confront your shop...
HTH
@merbesfield I'm betting I'm MUCH older than you and I have a difficult time NOT trusting a shop that has people I like. But, I've learned to control my temper and confront them with kindness and explain why I feel they are not properly addressing my concerns.
But, life's too short to spend more than a "moment" trying to negotiate a compromise...
I never wrenched before the purchase of 44, last March, but I decided early on to learn to do my own work on anything I could handle. I quickly discovered just how easy much of this wrenching is...
All it takes is common sense, a lot of patience (especially for old rusty nuts and bolts), hand tools, a few diagnostic tools (timing light, pressure tester, etc.), FSMs, the ability to search the internet (especially MUD) and the understanding that there are a lot of really knowledgeable members on MUD. Just ask... And always try to include visual aids (e.g. Pictures).
I can honestly say, there are tasks I won't attempt on my own (engine rebuild, etc.) and tasks I initially found too daunting to attempt... But a couple fellow MUDders (@jetranger and @allan man ) allowed me to 'help' them rebuild 44's knuckles... I can easily do that myself, next time.
44 had really dangerous steering issues when I bought her... I fixed it all myself... With some help from some MUDbrothers from anoder MUDDer.
I've also fixed a number of other issues... On my own.
If you can't get it fixed by the shop you paid, don't waste time or blood pressure on them, unless they charged for parts they didn't install (like a drag link or the drag link end, etc.), do it yourself ... MUD can and Will help!!
Small Claims Court is there to help with money recover, should the need arise.
NOW... I'm comfortable spending the night, 50 miles from the nearest help, with NO cell signal... Just me, my dogs, my GPS SPOT, my survival gear (including handgun, compass, maps, etc.), food, dog food, dog treats and water.
I know I can deal with any issues that come up, within reason, and return safely home... If I can't fix it and can't drive it there are still ways to get home... I have already had several issues in very remote places and have successfully overcome them.
Borrowing the old Home Depot slogan ( I was developing Point of Sale software for them when I retired the second time), "You can do it, we can help!"!!
Again, as I and someone else said previously, your drag link has a lot of 'new' looking threads on both ends, I would bet that it's too long... That in itself is an easy DIY fix - check the FSM. You might simply screw it to the proper length and drive it to see what difference is made.
The steering stabilizer... As someone said... Take it off and drive it and see what difference is made.
The drag link end... As someone said, rebuild it (easy job) or try the two pennies method and drive it and see what difference is made.
The "not return to center" issue... I have a feeling the steering gear box needs to be rebuilt, or at least adjusted properly.
Is it leaking around the input shaft?
Have you looked at the pedestal that the steering gear box sits on? Mine came with a homemade pedestal... Someone had broken a non-PS gearbox mount and poorly welded it back together. The incorrect angle caused all sorts of scary issues. I bought a Bill Dorry Pedestal from Georg (@orangefj45 ) and, with MUDders recommendations, removed the fender, to more easily replace the pedestal.
The proper angle is important!! A Minitruck PS gearbox can't use the original non-PS mount.
Have you looked at the rag joint? It also probably needs replacing.
I hope you resolve this... Driving with f'd up steering is scary and takes all the fun out of driving your 40.
I think you have enough ammo to politely confront your shop...
HTH
Last edited:
merbesfield
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- Thread starter
- #55
HTH, I am comfortable doing the wrenching on my now land cruiser, IF, I decided to do that. These things are super basic and definitely not rocket science. If you are inteligent and know how to read then there is no excuse for not knowing how to repair a Land Cruiser. It's all there in black and white. With the help of Mudders here it is very doable. What a great online community we have here. However, I made the decision to NOT do the work bc I don't have time right now with work and family, so I decided to pay the premium and have a professional shop do the work. If you look at my build threads on my LV or other cars, you will see that building and fabrication are my love and I am not afraid of any task really. I have a complete shop with lift and full time mechanic on staff. We are slammed w builds that have to be completed before spring. I just didn't want to do it plain and simple. I wanted it done in a week and back on the road. I have three major personal projects currently going and didn't want a forth. Every part on this PS setup is factory, so it should and will drive like new at some point. Yes I could take over and fix it myself, but that would defeat the original intent on subbing it out to another capable shop. I will have the conversation and it will be rectified, or I guess I will be forced to DIY. I appreciate all the help and comments on how to resolve this issue. The more I learn the more I realize this is just not that complicated, if and when you are replacing any and all worn components. Thanks guys.
I hope I didn't offend you... If I did, I sincerely apologize.
HTH means "hope that helped"
...and I do...
Name's Danny
HTH means "hope that helped"
...and I do...
Name's Danny
merbesfield
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #57
I hope I didn't offend you... If I did, I sincerely apologize.
HTH means "hope that helped"
...and I do...
Name's Danny
Heck no, not in the least. I'm not one of those thin skinned types. I love cars and trucks and all things associated. I appreciate all help offered by these online forums. Learned another thing tonight, HTH
thanks, Danny
You might need to ask these guys :
http://www.andysautosport.com/camber_shims/toyota_land_cruiser/1982.html
cheers!
http://www.andysautosport.com/camber_shims/toyota_land_cruiser/1982.html
cheers!
The center link has a bushing inside that can wear out of round over time - I'd bet it needs a new or at least adjusted if they did not do so , but from the nicked paint it looks like someone at least used a wrench on it . There is a specific amount of tension to be applied when adjusting that joint - the diagnosis is if it swings dead straight in-line with the other components . If it raises or lowers in height , it is way out of adjustment or worn to the point of rebuilding it .
One of the simplest tests is to remove that stabilizer and try driving it . If it has become worn , and those will easily - it will have spots that are tight and spots that are loose . I ruined two in one year on my SOA Sami - just not very well built and went another route after the second one went bad . It had exhibited the same symptoms as yours - sawing the wheel to hold a straight line . Another thing - spin the steering wheel with the wheels off the ground full lock to lock . Count the number of turns , divide in half and put the wheel straight ahead - then check the line of sight on the wheels from the inside as mentioned above - if they are off they did not center the steering box first . With that being the starting point , nothing will work correctly until that steering box is centered . Recirculating ball steering boxes of this type have a specific center and without a whole paragraph they need to be set at that point or "return to center" will never work correctly .
Once those two simple things are done you have the necessary information to address issues to the shop - if they argue the steering box being off at that point just leave them out of fixing it , plain and simple . Without the box being centered and the linkage adjusted to it's correct lengths nothing will align as it should - hence the result of rubbing a boot off a steering joint , that should have never happened .
Sarge
One of the simplest tests is to remove that stabilizer and try driving it . If it has become worn , and those will easily - it will have spots that are tight and spots that are loose . I ruined two in one year on my SOA Sami - just not very well built and went another route after the second one went bad . It had exhibited the same symptoms as yours - sawing the wheel to hold a straight line . Another thing - spin the steering wheel with the wheels off the ground full lock to lock . Count the number of turns , divide in half and put the wheel straight ahead - then check the line of sight on the wheels from the inside as mentioned above - if they are off they did not center the steering box first . With that being the starting point , nothing will work correctly until that steering box is centered . Recirculating ball steering boxes of this type have a specific center and without a whole paragraph they need to be set at that point or "return to center" will never work correctly .
Once those two simple things are done you have the necessary information to address issues to the shop - if they argue the steering box being off at that point just leave them out of fixing it , plain and simple . Without the box being centered and the linkage adjusted to it's correct lengths nothing will align as it should - hence the result of rubbing a boot off a steering joint , that should have never happened .
Sarge
merbesfield
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- #60
I wanted to let everyone know that I have dropped the FJ back off at the shop. We have reviewed the issues and they are going to get it fixed.
