So Warn winches have bushings, not bearings? Good or bad?

[e9999]

this came up in another thread discussing the T-Maxes which seem to boast bearings in their ads.
IIRC when I looked at the diagrams for the M12 and other popular Warn winches, it seems like they use bushings not bearings.
Is that right?
And if so, should that imply that bushings are "as strong" as bearings for this app (since Warn are reportedly some of the better winches)?

 

[lowenbrau]

I assume the for the sake of the discussion, bushings have no rollers or balls and bearings do. In that case, as far as durability goes all engines use 'bushings' for the crankshaft and as far as strength goes every rail car uses 'bushings' for the wheels. If the T-max winches use balls or rollers, they better have very good seals. I find that the Warn stuff (8274 excepted) ends up full of mud and rusty water pretty often. A good cleaning and lube generally gets them going again. I'm not sure it would be so easy with balls and cages.

 

[e9999]

I assume the for the sake of the discussion, bushings have no rollers or balls and bearings do. In that case, as far as durability goes all engines use 'bushings' for the crankshaft and as far as strength goes every rail car uses 'bushings' for the wheels. If the T-max winches use balls or rollers, they better have very good seals. I find that the Warn stuff (8274 excepted) ends up full of mud and rusty water pretty often. A good cleaning and lube generally gets them going again. I'm not sure it would be so easy with balls and cages.

yes, but your crankshaft "bushings" are continually lubed under pressure, no?
I don't know about dirt issues. Bushings can be easily scored or worn down too, I would think.
Altogether, I imagine that they just figure the amount of spinning that the bushings will see over your typical winch lifetime is so small that bushings are plenty good for the task, so likely it's a non-issue.
It's interesting, though, that T-Max figures it's a good marketing approach to take...

 

[spressomon]

Don't know what type of bushings Warn is using (assuming they are using bushings) but bronze oil-lite bushings are self-lubricating and probably a very good choice for this application.

My simple/basic understanding: Generally bushings do better when there is a need for higher load and lower/no rpm's. Generally ball/needle bearings are better suited for lighter loads and higher cycles/rpm's. However there certainly is a cross-over point somewhere that only a engineer might be able to provide some enlightenment.

 

[stevezero]

Bushings are also cheaper to manufacture than bearings. Less surface area to get clogged up with dirt/mud/grime/water. Given infrequent usage, there is chance that the steel bearings/races would rust, thereby turning them into a very expensive bushing.. Bronze oil-lite bushings wont rust like bearings would.

 

[D'Animal]

Bearing are generally designed for a radial load being applied to them. A load in all directions. If you put a heavy load on one side of the bearing constantly you could crush the bearing. They are very unforgiving to to moisture. The balls or needles will pit and grind themselves up if rust or grit is present.

With a oilite type bushing or bearing you will not have this problem nearly as bad.

 

[e9999]

good point about the rust on unused bearings. Although they could be sealed I suppose. But all that more expensive than bushings, likely.

Plus I guess we would have heard of frequent failures by now given how long some of these winches have been around. I haven't.

So if all the above is true, TMax is advertising a feature that is either not superior or perhaps even inferior in design... They must be counting on folks (misleading?) gut feelings about this. Weird.

 

[D'Animal]

advertising a feature that is either not superior or perhaps even inferior in design... They must be counting on folks (misleading?) gut feelings about this. Weird.

This is very common with advertising.

They do this so you will not notice a flaw or a weak link. I remember seeing a add for a car. It seated 4 people and one the "features" was that it came with 4 seat belts. The spare tire was a full size option. I think it was a Hugo or something.

I have no experience with the Max T, but I have not heard anything bad about them, nor have I seen one fail.

 

[firetruck41]

good point about the rust on unused bearings. Although they could be sealed I suppose. But all that more expensive than bushings, likely.

Plus I guess we would have heard of frequent failures by now given how long some of these winches have been around. I haven't.

So if all the above is true, TMax is advertising a feature that is either not superior or perhaps even inferior in design... They must be counting on folks (misleading?) gut feelings about this. Weird.

Since they build their rebranded winches with bushings, and bushings are likely cheaper, they probably feel that bearings are a superior application and use them in their "brand name" line of winches. Whether or not they are actually superior? That's for you to decide.

 

[OswaldtheBold]

I assume the for the sake of the discussion, bushings have no rollers or balls and bearings do. In that case, as far as durability goes all engines use 'bushings' for the crankshaft and as far as strength goes every rail car uses 'bushings' for the wheels. If the T-max winches use balls or rollers, they better have very good seals. I find that the Warn stuff (8274 excepted) ends up full of mud and rusty water pretty often. A good cleaning and lube generally gets them going again. I'm not sure it would be so easy with balls and cages.

I believe all railcars used in interstate commerce use roller bearing trucks.

 

[brownbear]

bushings can handle more pressure.

they are stronger.

they are cheaper to manufacture.

Easier to lube.

 

[bjowett]

Plain bearings = bushing. Roller bearings are just what you think they are. What one needs to ask is ....does the T-max use roller bearings?

 

[lowenbrau]

I believe all railcars used in interstate commerce use roller bearing trucks.

Shows what I know about trains. Thanks for the correction. I'm pretty sure when I was a kid they rode on a solid bearing and had a pot full of some kind of fluff that wicked oil down to them. Been a while since I spent time flattening pennies

 

[Mace]

Chevies use a pilot bushing instead of a pilot bearing. No big deal.

I honestly believe that it is a non issue..

 

[OswaldtheBold]

Shows what I know about trains. Thanks for the correction. I'm pretty sure when I was a kid they rode on a solid bearing and had a pot full of some kind of fluff that wicked oil down to them. Been a while since I spent time flattening pennies

Yes, when I was a kid flattening pennies, they all had grease boxes. The trucks had a square lid the grease went into. Lack of sufficient grease created a problem known as a "hot box". You can recognize the roller bearing trucks by the round bearing cap with three bolts that rotates with the axle.

 

[BiffS]

For what it's worth to this discussion, the busings in my Warn X8000 are a nylonish sort. Black with possible fibers impregnated.

That's the ones on the drum anyhow. The ones in the clutch end are combination bronze / plasticish.