Slider Install (1 Viewer)

[Taco2Cruiser]

Just from my own experiences over the years, those rivet inserts are fine for one time installation. But if you ever need to remove the slider for damage or to repaint, I've had those rivers lose their grip to the frame. Then they just rotate around in your frame rail. They are really much better for adding fenders, not so much for holding sliders. But if you don't hit your sliders a lot, then you will be better off. I'm sure some have had no problem, but working in shops, I've seen them with mixed results.

It sucks so much, and is really annoying, because you have to cut the bolt head off, then the treads and rivets fall into the frame, where hopefully you can snake them out.

Back story on those rivet things is, there are these nuts with a rim on them, they look like a little top hat. We would press them in, weld them on, and smooth it out to add threaded nuts. Now since most people don't know how to weld, these things came out. It's a good idea, but like bolt on O2 sensor bungs, some things just need to be fused together, for long term reasons.

 

[Mogwai]

BudBuilt will have sliders available in a month. Made out of any material you want, no drilling, and will be the strongest slider on the market. Here is the prototype. That's not all of it, the mounting design is not pictured. Along with the fill panels for the steps. Plus it runs the entire length of the rocker panel, unlike all the others

View attachment 1441248

How no drilling? Will these be weld on only? IMO there just aren't enough existing places to mount to without adding extra threaded holes. Plus... Seems like the the location of the holes in the frame changed over the years... 08' diff from 09', both diff than 13', etc... Will be interested in seeing how these mount up but really no interest in swapping out my Slees, not sure why I would need any slider that's "stronger" than theirs.

And the blanket statement that they will be the strongest on the market, but also come in all different materials is slightly contradictory... Ie if you choose aluminum they certainly will not be.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

How no drilling? Will these be weld on only? IMO there just aren't enough existing places to mount to without adding extra threaded holes. Plus... Seems like the the location of the holes in the frame changed over the years... 08' diff from 09', both diff than 13', etc... Will be interested in seeing how these mount up but really no interest in swapping out my Slees, not sure why I would need any slider that's "stronger" than theirs.

And the blanket statement that they will be the strongest on the market, but also come in all different materials is slightly contradictory... Ie if you choose aluminum they certainly will not be.

Yea, sorry about mentioning aluminum and saying "strongest on the market". I was thinking the steel versions, then remember he can also do aluminum. Probably should of reworded that paragraph.

Strength comes from material obviously. But also how far supports are placed from the main tube, to angles used, all change strength. Think leverage.

As far as mounting design. Basically, there will be a full length plate on the back side (or inside of the frame rail) then for all the more square holes along the frame, 1/2" bolts sandwich the slider to the back plate. That is also in conjunction with using the existing threaded nuts. That design still has a lot of more too it, if someone tried to copy this, there is still another aspect to it that ensure alignment of the slider is maintained (and not just the normal existing threaded nuts that are already used).

I don't come up with this stuff, Bud is a mechanical engineer with a specialty in material analysis and failure analysis. As well as 30+ years in the industrial manufacturing and processing world. So, he's got a little different way of understanding how things really work, than someone like me who just gets some .120 DOM and starts welding metal together to make a slider.

I just know he is bad at the advertising side of the house, and since I feel strongly about how much overall strong his designs are, I want led to share it.

Most people don't need this stuff, but I do so, who knows, maybe as these 200s get cheaper, more rock guys like me will start wheeling them.

But all things aside, on my Slee sliders, when I jack the truck up with a high lift to change a tire, that slider presses into the rock panel at the far leading edge, for me, that just ain't gonna work.

 

[Mogwai]

Yea, sorry about mentioning aluminum and saying "strongest on the market". I was thinking the steel versions, then remember he can also do aluminum. Probably should of reworded that paragraph.

Strength comes from material obviously. But also how far supports are placed from the main tube, to angles used, all change strength. Think leverage.

As far as mounting design. Basically, there will be a full length plate on the back side (or inside of the frame rail) then for all the more square holes along the frame, 1/2" bolts sandwich the slider to the back plate. That is also in conjunction with using the existing threaded nuts. That design still has a lot of more too it, if someone tried to copy this, there is still another aspect to it that ensure alignment of the slider is maintained (and not just the normal existing threaded nuts that are already used).

I don't come up with this stuff, Bud is a mechanical engineer with a specialty in material analysis and failure analysis. As well as 30+ years in the industrial manufacturing and processing world. So, he's got a little different way of understanding how things really work, than someone like me who just gets some .120 DOM and starts welding metal together to make a slider.

I just know he is bad at the advertising side of the house, and since I feel strongly about how much overall strong his designs are, I want led to share it.

Most people don't need this stuff, but I do so, who knows, maybe as these 200s get cheaper, more rock guys like me will start wheeling them.

But all things aside, on my Slee sliders, when I jack the truck up with a high lift to change a tire, that slider presses into the rock panel at the far leading edge, for me, that just ain't gonna work.

Yeah love that concept, looking forward to seeing this pan out. And another one for you, does that kick out aid you while rock climbing? I just don't understand conceptually situations where it would be helpful. But I can however see plenty where it would be detrimental. My rock crawling experience is limited which is why I ask!

Btw I tried to use the end of Sleeder to jack-off (yeah it's one sexy slider) and indeed it wanted to flex to the rocker panel. So I stopped and just picked a spot slightly closer to support and it was fine. But I hear you, I was too a bit taken back by this.

And Bud doesn't need a marketing campaign, he's got you and this forum!!! Keep it up, love seeing all the sweet products coming to market. 2017... The year the 200 gets some real aftermarket attention!!

 

[TonyP]

But all things aside, on my Slee sliders, when I jack the truck up with a high lift to change a tire, that slider presses into the rock panel at the far leading edge, for me, that just ain't gonna work.

Really?! That's wild. What material/mounting are the Slee sliders? Ability to hi-lift via the sliders without any deflection is one of the "wants" I mentioned to Jason before building mine. That's the 2nd most important characteristic/usage of sliders IMO.

 

[Rigger]

I think the Slee sliders use riv-nuts. Are there any sliders available that do NOT use riv-nuts?

 

[Mogwai]

Really?! That's wild. What material/mounting are the Slee sliders? Ability to hi-lift via the sliders without any deflection is one of the "wants" I mentioned to Jason before building mine. That's the 2nd most important characteristic/usage of sliders IMO.

To be clear, you can do this just not at the very end of the slider closest to wheel. That tube is about 12" from the nearest mount so there is indeed some deflection. Ok a fair amount of deflection!

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

And I'm not saying Slee sliders are bad, they are pretty good. Their main tube is incredibly thick, so great for a simple necessary protection of a very vulnerable area.

I'm just pushing this 200 into tight areas, so Bud's design puts 6 different angles legs to the outer tube, with about 5 inches from the last leg to the ends, plus his run the entire rocker length.

As for a kicker, so this thing is invaluable. So it might look like they stick out too far, and they do, that's the point. So when you are in rock gardens, and have limited lines you can take, sometimes you need to hug rocks. Well since your slider end at the rear tire, you need to get you rear end away from rock or tree you are sliding on, as you pass by your quarter panel. The kicker, "kicks" you truck further away from that obstacle to then save your rear quarters panel.

I started running kickers 10 years ago, and never looked back.

For me, I have a rock buggy of an FJ, could do anything in Moab and the Rubicon and not even need a spot half the time. But I now have a family, plus my wife's sister and her kids go with us a lot. And I love it, because I love sharing the outdoors, I was going to build an off road trailer. Then I figured a bigger truck was easier to wheel then a small one with trailer.

So I got the 200, because I don't know what other vehicle I could take 8 people on the Rubicon. It's awesome, just going to take my rock crawling back ground, and apply it to a vehicle that some think is too big... ha, that's why I'm the nay-slayer.

 

[SQRRRL]

ROCK ON

 

[sleeoffroad]

MOUNTING - Just a couple of comments on our sliders. I would be the first to agree that rivet nuts are not the ideal mounting but there are some good reasons why we use them. In general our preffered way of connecting to the frame is either into captive nuts installed by Toyota or through the frame / sandwich the frame. Land Cruisers have boxed frames, so through bolting is not always possible. Where we can get a nut plate into the frame (Like the large 1/2" bolt on the 200 front foot) we do so.

The only other way to go through the frame would necessitate installing tubes to prevent the frame from compressing when the through bolt is tightened. That is not that easily done since the one of the holes has to be large enough to be able to fit the tube and bolt and then you need a large plate to cover this hole. It could certainly be done, but that would requiring drilling a lot of 3/4" holes in the frame.

Rivet nuts can loosen up when not installed properly. But like in all things there are compromises. We have never had issues with any of the slider models that we produce where the mounting to the frame causes weakness.

That is only one of the reasons we use a L shaped flange so that we can insert fasteners in two directions and that makes the slider incredibly strong, especially when the force it directed upwards against the bottom of the slider.

DEFLECTION - Pickup up a 7k lb truck from a slider is a tall order. We normally recommend people stay away from doing that to change a tire. Unless experienced it is a really good way to put a hi-lift through a door, window or fender. I would rather see an exhaust jack under the slider and frame. Also unless you use an axle strap to secure the axle, you are lifting the vehicle way more than what is needed to change a tire. A suitable bottle jack under the axle / a frame with a sturdy base is a much better idea.

Also when lifting at the extreme end of the slider, you are twisting the truck as a whole. What could appear like slider deflection is normally frame twist and body twisting on the body mounts. Also the way we construct our sliders is that the main 2x3 tube is under the flat part of the body seam, just outside if the pinch weld. Even if it did make contact, it is flat against flat and should not create any damage. We have used that same principal on all our sliders since the beginning and I can't recall that I have ever seen damage from that.

There also has to be a balance between protection, weight and overall costs. Cost is normally the last issue that we address. Can we add more legs to support the slider body to the mounting flange, yes, but we have never really seen that more would be a huge benefit for most people.

KICK-OUT - We started making sliders for heave Land Cruisers from the beginning. For these vehicles I simply do not believe that a kick-out is going to push a 7k lb vehicle sideways to get it out of harms way. Lighter vehicles yes, but on a heavy truck that is a really tall order to expect a slider to push both tires and the back of the vehicle over when in the rocks. More times than not, I have seen forward progress halted when the truck gets wedged and the kick-out jambs against the rock. That said, it is a personal choice why we do not make sliders with kick-outs.

 

[EPUro2019]

Thanks for the info Christo!

Bottom line is it looks like all supporting vendors are doing a great job and making some great products. For the people with limited tools/skills it would be nice to have a bolt on product, obviously it needs to be strong enough to avoid drilling holes. I'm interested to see what budbuilt comes out with. I have always wanted a set of Slee sliders, hopefully I can find a friend to help install if I go that direction.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Thanks Christo for your insight, it's always good to hear from a true builder.

I would have to disagree about through bolts crushing the frame, especially since a 200 frame has a boxed frame inside a boxed frame. And under that thinking, just bolting to the outside of the frame, when the slider is hit upward, then the frame would be pull out with it. We know that won't happen, so why would the frame be too weak to not handle a few through bolts? And there are a few strait through holes.

The L shape flange on the bottom is a good design, I built 5th gen 4Runner sliders with that design for a friend, but as you know, all the 200 frames changed which holes had threaded nuts. So if you have a L shape, the bottom holes need to be the exact size as the bolt, because the enlarged holes that are on the bottom of my Slee sliders allowed the bottom of that L shape to essentially slide enough till the elongated hole hit the bolt. Expedition one bumper did the same thing, and it allowed too much deflection.

Speaking of deflection, agreeed Hi-Lifts are dangerous. I stopped caring one off road over a decade ago because of how bad they are, and how much better other products are. I just use it in my garage to change front tires, because I don't want lift from the lower control are since it is now on a sharp angle from a lift. And the Army taught me how to use recovery gear properly, so it works for me.

But a hi lift is obviously a toned down example of a rock slamming into the slider, so how much will they deflect when I do that?

As far as the frame moving and not the slider. I hung plumb bobs down the body where the stock step were to the slider, and I'm sorry, but it was the Slee slider that was bending, not the frame.

Kickers on the heavy 200. Sorry but I must disagree. I have put kicker sliders on quite a few full size and 3/4 ton trucks. Kickers work, god do they work.

 

[linuxgod]

White Knuckle's seem to be a popular choice of late, I love the look of them, but I don't understand the kick-out. Have been wheeling plenty of times where that kick-out would have contacted a rock and kicked the rear end over, with the Slee-ders I was able to "slide" right by w/out drama.

I have a set of White Knuckles on order. I wanted the kick out mainly to provide a better step for my kids climbing out the back door. We're often parked in places where they can't fully open the rear door, so they tend to step on the area closest to the rear wheel. The Toyota running boards are straight, and with the bulge by the rear wheel well there's not much step. I haven't seen Slee's sliders in person, but from the photos they didn't look like they provided much if any extra step area in the rear.

 

[Mogwai]

Thanks Christo for your insight, it's always good to hear from a true builder.

I would have to disagree about through bolts crushing the frame, especially since a 200 frame has a boxed frame inside a boxed frame. And under that thinking, just bolting to the outside of the frame, when the slider is hit upward, then the frame would be pull out with it. We know that won't happen, so why would the frame be too weak to not handle a few through bolts? And there are a few strait through holes.

The L shape flange on the bottom is a good design, I built 5th gen 4Runner sliders with that design for a friend, but as you know, all the 200 frames changed which holes had threaded nuts. So if you have a L shape, the bottom holes need to be the exact size as the bolt, because the enlarged holes that are on the bottom of my Slee sliders allowed the bottom of that L shape to essentially slide enough till the elongated hole hit the bolt. Expedition one bumper did the same thing, and it allowed too much deflection.

Speaking of deflection, agreeed Hi-Lifts are dangerous. I stopped caring one off road over a decade ago because of how bad they are, and how much better other products are. I just use it in my garage to change front tires, because I don't want lift from the lower control are since it is now on a sharp angle from a lift. And the Army taught me how to use recovery gear properly, so it works for me.

But a hi lift is obviously a toned down example of a rock slamming into the slider, so how much will they deflect when I do that?

As far as the frame moving and not the slider. I hung plumb bobs down the body where the stock step were to the slider, and I'm sorry, but it was the Slee slider that was bending, not the frame.

Kickers on the heavy 200. Sorry but I must disagree. I have put kicker sliders on quite a few full size and 3/4 ton trucks. Kickers work, god do they work.

Re: kickers I read your last few posts and I can see a scenario where "kicking" your back end over could be a good tactic. However, I've been in more situations where that would be a detriment, where I was so close on both sides that the "kick" may solve for one side, only to kick the other side over to the rock (or wall that you mention early) so that the other side ends up hitting. I should have taken pictures, but multiple instances where I was able to squeeze by barely touching the slider where if I had a kick I would have had much more to deal w/ and may have done damage to the other side of the vehicle as it gets kicked over towards the far side obstacle. Lastly... might not make much sense but when I look at images of people truly rock crawling, very few have sliders w/ kick-outs. Couldn't find a single rock buggy. Not a single rock Heep. Not saying they don't exist, or that this is a scientific way to choose kick/no kick, but if these pros are out there doing this every day and majority don't use the kick that tells me something.

 

[sleeoffroad]

I would have to disagree about through bolts crushing the frame, especially since a 200 frame has a boxed frame inside a boxed frame. And under that thinking, just bolting to the outside of the frame, when the slider is hit upward, then the frame would be pull out with it. We know that won't happen, so why would the frame be too weak to not handle a few through bolts? And there are a few strait through holes.

They frame might be thick, but our experience is if you bolt through without internal support, eventually it will pinch the frame enough that the fasteners will come loose.

The L shape flange on the bottom is a good design, I built 5th gen 4Runner sliders with that design for a friend, but as you know, all the 200 frames changed which holes had threaded nuts. So if you have a L shape, the bottom holes need to be the exact size as the bolt, because the enlarged holes that are on the bottom of my Slee sliders allowed the bottom of that L shape to essentially slide enough till the elongated hole hit the bolt. Expedition one bumper did the same thing, and it allowed too much deflection.

We have to provide enough slop for variances in frames / installation. We have also always maintained that if you wheel that hard that the adjustment can cause things to move, then we suggest a couple of carefully placed welds in spots where they can easily be removed if need be. That should stop movement.

As far as the frame moving and not the slider. I hung plumb bobs down the body where the stock step were to the slider, and I'm sorry, but it was the Slee slider that was bending, not the frame.

Was the deflection in the direction of the slider, or from the fame outwards? I looked at your picture of the Budbuilt slider and yes, it might have more legs, but from the basic design you would not be able to get a hi-lift anywhere close to the tips of the slider. So I would venture to say it is much of a muchnes.

Kickers on the heavy 200. Sorry but I must disagree. I have put kicker sliders on quite a few full size and 3/4 ton trucks. Kickers work, god do they work.

I guess we can agree to disagree then on this

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Re: kickers I read your last few posts and I can see a scenario where "kicking" your back end over could be a good tactic. However, I've been in more situations where that would be a detriment, where I was so close on both sides that the "kick" may solve for one side, only to kick the other side over to the rock (or wall that you mention early) so that the other side ends up hitting. I should have taken pictures, but multiple instances where I was able to squeeze by barely touching the slider where if I had a kick I would have had much more to deal w/ and may have done damage to the other side of the vehicle as it gets kicked over towards the far side obstacle. Lastly... might not make much sense but when I look at images of people truly rock crawling, very few have sliders w/ kick-outs. Couldn't find a single rock buggy. Not a single rock Heep. Not saying they don't exist, or that this is a scientific way to choose kick/no kick, but if these pros are out there doing this every day and majority don't use the kick that tells me something.

Well I would first start by saying both my rock buggies never had kickers, and I wouldn't put them on a Jeep either. Because that is not what they are for. The kicker pushes your truck away, to then give space to save the quarter panel, or the metal from behind the rear wheel to the rear bumper. Rock buggies and Jeeps don't have much back there, so it doesn't matter for them. Kickers came about when truggies came about, and the are great for tacomas as the amount of body behind the rear wheels can hit stuff. 200 series his the same bid 'ol bottom. As far as you experiencing that a kicker on both side would hang you up, well, what is the best way to upload a video? I've got a video of Cadillac Hill that will show what happens when you have a kicker, because without it, you will destroy your quarter panel. The picture show that sometimes, you just can't go strait, and hooking around something is a good way, IF you can keep you back end away from it.

They frame might be thick, but our experience is if you bolt through without internal support, eventually it will pinch the frame enough that the fasteners will come loose.

We have to provide enough slop for variances in frames / installation. We have also always maintained that if you wheel that hard that the adjustment can cause things to move, then we suggest a couple of carefully placed welds in spots where they can easily be removed if need be. That should stop movement.

Was the deflection in the direction of the slider, or from the fame outwards? I looked at your picture of the Budbuilt slider and yes, it might have more legs, but from the basic design you would not be able to get a hi-lift anywhere close to the tips of the slider. So I would venture to say it is much of a muchnes.

I guess we can agree to disagree then on this

ah is see where we are seeing different things, the BudBuild sliders is the picture is the first prototype, I had it in the comments but, yea, that is not what they are looking like now. I was just trying to provide something for the group.

But for the deflection piece, I could get the Slee slider to press into my rocker by lifting from right behind the front leg. I don't know how much closer to a support I could get. I wasn't talking about putting the hi-lift at the far lead edge. Which brings me to the variances in the frame a using an L shaped design.

I get the variances in the frame, especially the 200, I wish it would be the same through the years as 4runners, but that is why I think the L shape flange doesn't apply as well because of that. I don't think things need to be welded, even if beating hard, just need tolerances tighter. And to be made out of stronger stuff if needed. So for how my 200 is, because of the L shape, it can't get the sliders to sit any lower if I needed just a 1/4" more clearance. So that forced the slider to ride maybe close to my body that someone else, either way, I'm hitting body. With not running an L shape, it eliminates that possibility.

that's .120 DOM All pro offroad stuff, their stuff didn't survive the Dusy. So I had to go stronger, their sliders bent the pinch weld ever so slightly.

As far as the frame and through bolts, maybe that is something Bud needs to think about. But I would offer that on the front ARB winch bumper, it used a long bolt the attaches to a through bar of the front of the frame. And then ARB says to tighten the hell out of that. No issue of the frame buckling, or the fasteners loosing. And that is on a much thinner piece of the frame than the center section. And ARB has the massive resources to know how these trucks handle even under crash conditions, not sure if they crashed a 200 though, so I guess I can't say for sure.

Again, I'm not saying your slider is bad Christo, they saved my rocker panel while I was in Sequoia national forest, and thank you for that. I just think for me, I need to switch it up.

Edit: I would like to add that I don't get into brand loyalty. I remember when BudBuilt had their first run of his FJ skids, and they incorporated the stock catalytic converter guards, which ended up loosing like an 1" of ground clearance. WHICH IS BAD. And I thought it sucked. I always say, "the second Toyota sells me a truck that breaks down, I'll go buy a Jeep!"

 

[Mogwai]

Well I would first start by saying both my rock buggies never had kickers, and I wouldn't put them on a Jeep either. Because that is not what they are for. The kicker pushes your truck away, to then give space to save the quarter panel, or the metal from behind the rear wheel to the rear bumper. Rock buggies and Jeeps don't have much back there, so it doesn't matter for them. Kickers came about when truggies came about, and the are great for tacomas as the amount of body behind the rear wheels can hit stuff. 200 series his the same bid 'ol bottom. As far as you experiencing that a kicker on both side would hang you up, well, what is the best way to upload a video? I've got a video of Cadillac Hill that will show what happens when you have a kicker, because without it, you will destroy your quarter panel. The picture show that sometimes, you just can't go strait, and hooking around something is a good way, IF you can keep you back end away from it.

View attachment 1442764



ah is see where we are seeing different things, the BudBuild sliders is the picture is the first prototype, I had it in the comments but, yea, that is not what they are looking like now. I was just trying to provide something for the group.

But for the deflection piece, I could get the Slee slider to press into my rocker by lifting from right behind the front leg. I don't know how much closer to a support I could get. I wasn't talking about putting the hi-lift at the far lead edge. Which brings me to the variances in the frame a using an L shaped design.

I get the variances in the frame, especially the 200, I wish it would be the same through the years as 4runners, but that is why I think the L shape flange doesn't apply as well because of that. I don't think things need to be welded, even if beating hard, just need tolerances tighter. And to be made out of stronger stuff if needed. So for how my 200 is, because of the L shape, it can't get the sliders to sit any lower if I needed just a 1/4" more clearance. So that forced the slider to ride maybe close to my body that someone else, either way, I'm hitting body. With not running an L shape, it eliminates that possibility.

View attachment 1442769

that's .120 DOM All pro offroad stuff, their stuff didn't survive the Dusy. So I had to go stronger, their sliders bent the pinch weld ever so slightly.

As far as the frame and through bolts, maybe that is something Bud needs to think about. But I would offer that on the front ARB winch bumper, it used a long bolt the attaches to a through bar of the front of the frame. And then ARB says to tighten the hell out of that. No issue of the frame buckling, or the fasteners loosing. And that is on a much thinner piece of the frame than the center section. And ARB has the massive resources to know how these trucks handle even under crash conditions, not sure if they crashed a 200 though, so I guess I can't say for sure.

Again, I'm saying your slider as bad Christo, the saved my rocker panel while I was in Sequoia national forest, and thank you for that. I just think for me, I need to switch it up.

I think that pic shows you can get around an object by not going straight, yes we all agree there.... but does not show me you need a kicker there. If anything it proves otherwise as you could easily keep turning against a straight slider there and not make contact w/ your body panel, not to mention if your intent is to have your wheel on the side/top of the obstacle your kicker would actually keep you from doing so. Video? Not me but exactly my point, straight sliders here and he's good (check his comment on what "stopped him")

To each his own...

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Here I am on Cadillac Hill on the Rubicon Trail. Notice that I have to do an immediate 90 degree turn to the left, while still in-between the two 4' boulders that are about a foot narrower than the width from kicker to kicker. Once past those two rocks, you see where I had to turn, if I did not have a kicker, then I would say good bye to my wheel and the quarter panel behind it. If I would have driven far enough out from the two boulders, to not need the kicker, I would of fallen off that cliff on the left side of the screen. I can't back up, because of the two boulders.

THAT is why I like kickers. This isn't an isolated occurrence, this happens... a lot, and this is just mild rock crawling, not the tough stuff. I hope that better illustrates why I like kickers.

 

[Markuson]

So in this case, the kicker helped turn your rig sharply left upon exiting both boulders--which you needed, because boulders on your right rear and inner left would have prevented you from backing up as part of a 3 point turn to go tighter to the inside (your left)..

Do I have that right?

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

So in this case, the kicker helped turn your rig sharply left upon exiting both boulders--which you needed, because boulders on your right rear and inner left would have prevented you from backing up as part of a 3 point turn to go tighter to the inside (your left)..

Do I have that right?

Yep with giving me a few more inches clearance from that final rock, also that I couldn't pull far enough forward, to do a 3 point turn, because there is a 80 drop to the front of the truck, and couldn't go further right, because there is a 30 foot drop to the right. That is because on the other side of that tree you see to my right, you are down there right before making your way to where I was.

"Rock and a hard place"