Should Toyota sell the 70 series in lieu of the 300?

[Gun Runner 5]

@Bludozer .... “ Toyota is not going to rework the entire platform for the US”.
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Just like Land Rover didn’t rework the original Defender to meet newer safety standards.

 

[Bludozer]

@Bludozer .... “ Toyota is not going to rework the entire platform for the US”.
———————————————————————————————————

Just like Land Rover didn’t rework the original Defender to meet newer safety standards.

Edited bc I mistook as sarcasm. Glad we agree!

 

[Gun Runner 5]

Land Rover reworked the entire global platform, after not selling it for several years. It literally has independent rear suspension, it shares nothing with original defenders other than name. It is impossible for Toyota to sell current new 7x variants in the US in anything close to its current form. Could they discontinue it, change everything and then sell something completely different called "the 70 series" the US market? Sure, but obviously that is a totally different thing than what is being discussed in this thread.

The new Defender unfortunately is nothing more than an LR4.

 

[OSS]

I've owned a USA FJ60 for 30 years and when I saw that LC70 review of the 4 door WorkMate on YouTube posted earlier, I was shocked at how similar it is to the FJ60. It's basically a FJ60 with a diesel (HJ60). There's so many similar parts being used. The FJ60 is a 40 year old vehicle. So then is the 70 series.

 

[Gun Runner 5]

I've owned a USA FJ60 for 30 years and when I saw that LC70 review of the 4 door WorkMate on YouTube posted earlier, I was shocked at how similar it is to the FJ60. It's basically a FJ60 with a diesel (HJ60). There's so many similar parts being used. The FJ60 is a 40 year old vehicle. So then is the 70 series.

Don’t forget the addition of the cool cup holder on the transmission tunnel.

 

[SharpeCat]

I've owned a USA FJ60 for 30 years and when I saw that LC70 review of the 4 door WorkMate on YouTube posted earlier, I was shocked at how similar it is to the FJ60. It's basically a FJ60 with a diesel (HJ60). There's so many similar parts being used. The FJ60 is a 40 year old vehicle. So then is the 70 series.

It’s very old yes. The HZ variant alone is 31 years old now and still produced with the same engine from 1990, but that’s a part of what I like about it. I could take that car to any country and parts availability will not be much of an issue.

If that ever gets updated I’d be all over it; in line for the next car that I could buy now and still be able to get a new original engine straight from the factory in 30 plus years. I agree the platform is old, but it’s still the closest thing to a car that could potentially last me the rest of my life. I don’t think it will get another update after the 79 series before everything goes electric and leaves this technology in the dust, so I look at it as the last gas-powered vehicle I will ever buy. For that reason alone I want the longest-lasting truck out there.

Electric trucks will be the standard in just a decade or two, and they are filled full of comfort, able to tow your house and etc... basically do all the things the 79 is not great at while at the same time i would not drive it through a river like I would a 70s. At the same time it could never provide a certain driving experience that Has grown on me: I like to feel the vibrations, hear the noise of the engine and etc.

Basically, like my dad who keeps a project car from the 70s around because he loves the way it feels; there are much better options right now in terms of everything, from speed to comfort... but he enjoys the old TVR the most. The problem is parts are hard to find and it stays in the shop for 10 months each year. I’m sure future me is going to appreciate the fact that I chose something much easier to fix for my dream car! But then again I have considered that 20 years from now I will have more trouble finding 70s part, but at least not as much trouble as my dad is having with TVR parts!

 

[WarDamnEagle]

Finally some actual logic and not brainless bashing and unsubstantiated claims. Thanks for that.

The LC is the most popular truck of the world where they are offered (which is vast majority of countries outside of the US). I didn't think i needed to clarify that the US numbers are exempt from a global work truck comparison, seeing as the LC isn't even offered here. Remove the countries where they aren't offered and what's left? Does Ford still come out on top for all the countries where people are actually given a choice? The LC has over 10 million sales with a tiny fraction of that being US-Sales, what's the F series global sales not counting the US compared to the 10 million (from your first link)? I also want you to focus on the bigger picture and look at the past 3-4 decades and not just any 1 year.

Now, for a few decades Toyota hasn't been able to tap into the biggest market in the world (the US) with their flagship model, how many more sales would they have if US manufacturers didn't lobby for the 25% import tax and lobby for more strict emissions requirements? I get that it hasn't stopped Toyota from bringing in a lot of models, but since the tax is % based, then it means their Flagship model/most expensive models will be hit the hardest by the tax; this put the 70s series in this awkward bracket where its too expensive to be a work truck, and not luxurious enough to be a luxury SUV. Because of the tax Toyota is forced to either sell budget models that are affected less by taxes, or super pricey models where the kind of people who buy it won't mind that it's $100k after import taxes (80s,100s,200s). If super pricey then they will need to add a lot of comforts to justify the cost.

The problem here is that when looking for a work truck, people want something cost-effective. Before the ridiculous 25% import tax, the 70s was competitive and just reasonably higher-priced, given the high-quality build; reasonable enough for many to consider spending a little more to get a longer-lasting truck. After the tax it becomes more priced like a Range Rover, without all the creature comforts; Of course that won't sell. But what if the Big 3 never interfered in the politics and the different trucks were put into a fair market, and because of that the 70s were sold at closer to what Toyota intended - aka the cost of a comparable F series?

You have to remember that in the 80s, Toyota was able to bring in comparable models from overseas and sell it for $5-10k cheaper than competing US-models (ex. Corolla vs Focus). Because of that the Big 3 auto manufacturers looked for ways to compete. This lead to the creation of NAFTA so that they can get mexican labor for cheap, lead to import taxes, lead to things like strict EPA standards that made it difficult for Toyota and etc. If the 25% tax never happened and a more sensible tax was put in place, then the 70 series would be much closer to the cost of US trucks at the time. What if the big 3 never interfered and played dirty? How different would your numbers look if the top choice for vast majority of the world (except US) at the time, was also given to the US-market and at a fair price?

The reason i want you to look at the bigger picture/decades is because there is a pattern from US-manufacturers of cutting corners to maximize profit:
-NAFTA replaced skilled American labor force with Mexican factory workers who have never assembled a Beetle before in their life, but all of a sudden they were in charge of all the Beetles. This opened the window for massive more outsourcing that followed over next few decades; American cars no longer means made in America.
-NAFTA also allowed them to produce in mexico, and be able to import it back without having to pay ridiculous import taxes, taxes that they are now exempt from thanks to NAFTA.
-they replaced metal with plastic where they could.
-they lobbied for unfair EPA/emission standards that made things difficult for Toyota

Meanwhile Toyota's design philosophy behind the LC hasn't changed, meaning they do not cut corners on the LC.

My point is that if the Big 3 made such great vehicles at such competitive prices, then they wouldn't need to resort to dirty play/sabotage in order to compete with Toyota. And if they didn't resort to playing dirty, then perception of the LC would be much different now, as well as the sale figures.

It's easy to say it won't sell when it's not allowed to be sold, but in a fair market if you guys really think people who knew the difference would choose the company that's quick to replace skilled American with unskilled Mexican workers, metal with plastic parts, and just willing to play dirty in general for profits.. over the honest company that focuses on making quality vehicles that sells themselves... then like i said, it's your money. Just don't say i didn't warn you!

I also ignored the rest of your points because they are opinions, let's not get into the underpowered uncomfortable debate because it's relative (its not that uncomfortable and it's a work truck not a truck to take you to get your hair done so get over it lol, it's not hard to add those comforts in the 21st century), and because people who need 18k towing capacity are in the very very low minority. You are using personal examples and small segments over short periods of time, to back up claims that the legendary LC itself is nothing more than a "glorified farm vehicle". The truth is the world uses it for much more than that.

Just a few observations from someone living in Saudi Arabia where the 70 series is available. You see them around but mostly on farms and especially driven by Bedouins who tend to large camel and/or sheep/goat herds. The Hilux and it's Mitsubishi and Isuzu cousins are far more popular and I would guess by observation that the Hilux sells 50 to 1 to the 70 series and maybe even much higher. I do see a lot of Chevrolet, GMC and Ford pickups as well......at least as many as 70 series pickups.

I don't see the 70 series pickup mentioned in these figures FWIW: Focus2move| World Best Selling Pick up - The top in 2020 - https://www.focus2move.com/world-best-selling-pick-up/

The 200 series here on the other hand is ubiquitous. They are literally everywhere and I'm sure account for 90%+ of the Land Cruiser sales in the country. Edit: I may be overly discounting Prado sales as they are quite popular. I think I can safely say that between the 200 series and the Prado they combine for 95%+ of all Land Cruiser sales here.

Toyota's "Flagship" model is not the 70 series; assuming I have read your assertion above correctly. The 200 series is the flagship model. Let's just be clear about that.

As others have said, the 70 series will never be sold in the US and I don't think it's as popular as you think even where it is sold. I own one and I will bring it back to the US with me but I don't ever foresee driving it more than an hour in any one direction when I have other choices. Don't get me wrong; I won't sell it but it's more "cute" than practical.

 

[SharpeCat]

Just a few observations from someone living in Saudi Arabia where the 70 series is available. You see them around but mostly on farms and especially driven by Bedouins who tend to large camel and/or sheep/goat herds. The Hilux and it's Mitsubishi and Isuzu cousins are far more popular and I would guess by observation that the Hilux sells 50 to 1 to the 70 series and maybe even much higher. I do see a lot of Chevrolet, GMC and Ford pickups as well......at least as many as 70 series pickups.

I don't see the 70 series pickup mentioned in these figures FWIW: Focus2move| World Best Selling Pick up - The top in 2020 - https://www.focus2move.com/world-best-selling-pick-up/

The 200 series here on the other hand is ubiquitous. They are literally everywhere and I'm sure account for 90%+ of the Land Cruiser sales in the country. Edit: I may be overly discounting Prado sales as they are quite popular. I think I can safely say that between the 200 series and the Prado they combine for 95%+ of all Land Cruiser sales here.

Toyota's "Flagship" model is not the 70 series; assuming I have read your assertion above correctly. The 200 series is the flagship model. Let's just be clear about that.

As others have said, the 70 series will never be sold in the US and I don't think it's as popular as you think even where it is sold. I own one and I will bring it back to the US with me but I don't ever foresee driving it more than an hour in any one direction when I have other choices. Don't get me wrong; I won't sell it but it's more "cute" than practical.

To each their own, and quite frankly I’m tired of going in circles with people who can only see 1 side. I think the 200 series is more cute than practical, as the most important thing in a work truck for me is reliability. I have a 200 series btw, and I’d gladly trade it for something that doesn’t have issues looming over the horizon. It’s a simple concept, really, and it’s all about doing away with all the things I can live without and focusing solely on making a truck that will keep on running. I don’t need the nicest seats or the biggest engine or the most comfortable ride, I just want something that will allow me to move on from this topic for good. The 200 series just isn’t that; I don’t need to own a 70s to know that I can keep a 70s running and 100% functional for much longer than I can even a 200 series, and everything else falls even shorter of that mark.

That’s nice that you have money for multiple cars and you’ll likely keep buying another every 5-10 years, but I only plan on getting one new vehicle for the rest of my life, and I just want one that will last. Some of you guys are speaking from a hella privileged perspective and don’t even realize it, and most of us in the world aren’t as wealthy as you; you should really reconsider projecting yourselves as the “majority”. Most people can’t afford a car that lasts 30 years but also has a cool box and DVD players in the headrests, but a bare necessities version that doesn’t get taxed to hell? That would absolutely sell to people like me who really don’t give a crap about the DVD players, and I definitely don’t think the 70s is as uncomfortable as some of you claim. what did you expect? For it to give you a shiatsu massage while you’re driving? Jesus Christ.

Cute is having heated leather seats, practical is having it still run after 30 years. You think I have it backwards and don’t know what I want, but I know exactly what I want. Quite frankly some of you guys need to back off with trying to force what you think I want onto me, and let me decide for myself.

Again, if you guys want to believe that the 70s is just for farm boys and would never sell in the US, then whatever helps you sleep at night. Just keep me out of it because I’m tired of explaining why I think that’s just plain ignorant.

 

[SharpeCat]

Anyways, I’m done here. Doesn’t matter how many times me and others tell some of you guys that we would buy it, you’ll still choose to live in your own version of reality where “not a single copy” will sell in the US. Doesn’t matter how many examples of non farm boys I show, you’ll still believe that it’s only for farm boys (even when you own one yourself and not a farmer).

It takes two fools to argue, so I will resign from my current position as the second. Best wishes to you all.

 

[WarDamnEagle]

Again, if you guys want to believe that the 70s is just for farm boys and would never sell in the US, then whatever helps you sleep at night. Just keep me out of it because I’m tired of explaining why I think that’s just plain ignorant.

If the 70 series pickup doesn't sell well in Saudi Arabia, it's difficult for me to see how it would fare well in the US. I'm not saying it wouldn't sell but not in enough numbers to justify the modifications that would be required.

If you want to address ignorance then please school us on this statement that you made: The LC is the most popular truck of the world where they are offered (which is vast majority of countries outside of the US).

Sorry but that isn't even close to being accurate assuming you really mean "truck" and not the Prado or Land Cruiser. I am confident the Hilux outsells the 70 series pickup in every single market.

 

[WarDamnEagle]

Anyways, I’m done here. Doesn’t matter how many times me and others tell some of you guys that we would buy it, you’ll still choose to live in your own version of reality where “not a single copy” will sell in the US. Doesn’t matter how many examples of non farm boys I show, you’ll still believe that it’s only for farm boys (even when you own one yourself and not a farmer).

It takes two fools to argue, so I will resign from my current position as the second. Best wishes to you all.

I don't recall anyone saying it wouldn't sell at all; just that the numbers wouldn't justify the modifications necessary. I did grow up on a farm FWIW. And furthermore you are the one making assertions that you can't substantiate.

Look I appreciate my FZJ75 but I don't think I would buy a new 79 series pickup to replace it even if it was available in the US. But that's just me.

 

[SharpeCat]

If the 70 series pickup doesn't sell well in Saudi Arabia, it's difficult for me to see how it would fare well in the US. I'm not saying it wouldn't sell but not in enough numbers to justify the modifications that would be required.

If you want to address ignorance then please school us on this statement that you made: The LC is the most popular truck of the world where they are offered (which is vast majority of countries outside of the US).

Sorry but that isn't even close to being accurate assuming you really mean "truck" and not the Prado or Land Cruiser. I am confident the Hilux outsells the 70 series pickup in every single market.

If you’re not saying it wouldn’t sell then I’m not talking to you. Do you not understand that I am talking to people who stated that it won’t sell in the Us and that it’s just a vehicle for farm boys?

The Lc is the most popular truck (and SUVs/truck is used synonymously in a lot of the world). Popular means it is a name that is recognized everywhere you go. Even in countries they aren’t offered in people are well aware of their rep. It’s not all about sales but 10+ million ain’t bad.

Anyways, not gonna let you bait me back in further. I wish you have a nice day.

 

[SharpeCat]

I don't recall anyone saying it wouldn't sell at all; just that the numbers wouldn't justify the modifications necessary. I did grow up on a farm FWIW. And furthermore you are the one making assertions that you can't substantiate.

Look I appreciate my FZJ75 but I don't think I would buy a new 79 series pickup to replace it even if it was available in the US. But that's just me.

Again, think what you want and re read if you missed something, but please keep me out of it and stop trying to take us in circles. I’m not a farm boy and I would buy a 79 series if it was offered at a fair price in the US, and that’s all there is to it.

 

[WarDamnEagle]

If you’re not saying it wouldn’t sell then I’m not talking to you. Do you not understand that I am talking to people who stated that it won’t sell in the Us and that it’s just a vehicle for farm boys?

The Lc is the most popular truck (and SUVs/truck is used synonymously in a lot of the world). Popular means it is a name that is recognized everywhere you go. Even in countries they aren’t offered in people are well aware of their rep. It’s not all about sales but 10+ million ain’t bad.

Anyways, not gonna let you bait me back in further. I wish you have a nice day.

Sorry but that statement isn't true even if you throw all Land Cruisers in together. For example, just the lowly Hilux had sold over 17million worldwide by 2017: Hilux by the Numbers | HISTORY | Hilux 50th Anniversary Special Website | Exclusive Product Stories | Toyota Brand | Mobility | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website - https://global.toyota/en/mobility/toyota-brand/features/hilux50th/history/numbers.html

 

[SharpeCat]

Sorry but that statement isn't true even if you throw all Land Cruisers in together. For example, just the lowly Hilux had sold over 17million worldwide by 2017: Hilux by the Numbers | HISTORY | Hilux 50th Anniversary Special Website | Exclusive Product Stories | Toyota Brand | Mobility | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website - https://global.toyota/en/mobility/toyota-brand/features/hilux50th/history/numbers.html

So you just read the title of articles, misinterpret it and assume the rest? You cherry picked that one line and ignored the rest of what I said about popularity being more than about sales.

Me: “LC is most popular truck in the world”
You: “He lying because it’s not the best-selling truck in the world”.

If you want to believe the Hilux is a more recognizable name/is more popular in the world because of sales numbers alone, and because of that take what I said out of context, then whatever helps you sleep at night. It’s a nice truck for sure, but it doesn’t have nearly the same heritage. The 70s to me is basically a Hilux that lasts longer; They even run the same 4.7l diesel I think.

 

[Gun Runner 5]

Sorry but that statement isn't true even if you throw all Land Cruisers in together. For example, just the lowly Hilux had sold over 17million worldwide by 2017: Hilux by the Numbers | HISTORY | Hilux 50th Anniversary Special Website | Exclusive Product Stories | Toyota Brand | Mobility | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website - https://global.toyota/en/mobility/toyota-brand/features/hilux50th/history/numbers.html

Do you ever get the feeling that you‘re trying to reason with a bored kid that’s living in his parents basement?

 

[SharpeCat]

Do you ever get the feeling that you‘re trying to reason with a bored kid that’s living in his parents basement?

Better that than a grown man who was never taught any manners, who only knows how to resort to pathetic, petty attempts at insult anytime his "developed brain" can't muster up any actual logic. I'll take it as a compliment brother.

 

[FJBen]

Please send a photo of the first new 70 Series you see at a U.S. Toyota dealer. (assuming you’ve got your “global facts” correct).

Hell there was one there a few days ago

 

[SharpeCat]

Hell there was one there a few days ago View attachment 2698022

It was a trick question, because the first new 70 series thats ever allowed in the US would be a piece of history and be sold before it even made it to the show floor. That's before even talking the LC museum and Mud members (enthusiasts) and overland youtubers, it would likely get snagged by some rich folks just so they can say they got the first. Don't forget about Jay Leno.

But since you bit, i'm more of a long-wheelbase, naturally-aspirated 70s kind of guy. It's nice to see that even the boosted versions run for decades like they do though . That one even looks like it could be a daily driver/work commuter!

Something more like this picture. Some see an underpowered and uncomfortable machine, i see a good-old-reliable piece of beauty. It really is amazing the conditions that i've seen these things continue to persist in, and if it will keep running where others won't, then it doesn't matter how many DVD players and horses are in the others. A running truck that tows 5k at a time can still get 100k towed faster than a broken-down truck with a 25k towing capacity; slow and steady wins the race for me. Let's just say i'm not the type to get jealous over the leather seats in a Range Rover, but i wouldn't blame them if they got jealous over the fact that i'm not the one broken down on the side of the road (or off-roads).

 

[FJBen]

It was a trick question, because the first new 70 series thats ever allowed in the US would be a piece of history and be sold before it even made it to the show floor. That's before even talking the LC museum and Mud members (enthusiasts) and overland youtubers, it would likely get snagged by some rich folks just so they can say they got the first. Don't forget about Jay Leno.

But since you bit, i'm more of a long-wheelbase, naturally-aspirated 70s kind of guy. It's nice to see that even the boosted versions run for decades like they do though . That one even looks like it could be a daily driver/work commuter!

Something more like this picture. Some see an underpowered and uncomfortable machine, i see a good-old-reliable piece of beauty. It really is amazing the conditions that i've seen these things continue to persist in, and if it will keep running where others won't, then it doesn't matter how many DVD players and horses are in the others. A running truck that tows 5k at a time can still get 100k towed faster than a broken-down truck with a 25k towing capacity; slow and steady wins the race for me. Let's just say i'm not the type to get jealous over the leather seats in a Range Rover, but i wouldn't blame them if they got jealous over the fact that i'm not the one broken down on the side of the road.

View attachment 2698043

It is daily driven every day. Just pulled the top a few days ago.

That said, I don't think there is anyway they are bringing it here. I would love to see a new one, and that would actually make me consider buying a new truck, but there is too much red tape. I like the no frills, drive slow stuff but I don't really see it happening. The new Bronco looks sweet, but it's basically a video game. Push this combo to go down the hill. Too much tech.

The vague rumors of an "off-road oriented" 5 seat trimmed down Land Cruiser coming back to the US screams Prado to me.



I would love to be wrong. I would love to see a Wrangler/Bronco competition in the form of the 70 series.