Should Toyota sell the 70 series in lieu of the 300? (2 Viewers)

[OGBeno]

Good points but ultimately more assumptions that you can't back up, and points that we've already ran in circles about. Here we go again!

"Imagine the average American buyer of a utility truck"
"A full third of them couldn't fit their ample frames into the driver's seat and feel comfortable"
The amount of ignorance in these statements is ridiculous, i didn't realize that so much of America's work force was overweight and couldn't fit into a truck that the rest of the world's workforce has no problem fitting into.

"Two crappy cupholders that will barely fit a Solo cup, plain seats with sub-par adjustments, dismal storage, utilitarian interior, no electronic gimmicks."
Because this is more important than reliability and performance for a utility truck?

"Underpowered (vs, the average US market pickup)"
Underpowered is relative, underpowered for what application? How many Americans will be pushing this thing beyond what mining companies in Australia are doing with them? If it can handle australia's demands it can handle the US.

"uncomfortable (again, to the average American driver)"
Again, are you looking for a work truck or a truck to take to the salon to get your nails painted? I'd rather have a vinyl truck that lasts than a leather one that costs twice as much to keep running over 20 years.

"and VERY expensive due to the nature of an over-built"

Correction, VERY expensive MOSTLY due to the fact that BIG 3 politics has made it nearly impossible for Toyota to bring them in**. Instead of stepping up their game in terms of matching or out-doing Japanese quality/cost, US manufacturers decided to rig the system and cut corners. Do i need to bring up NAFTA (cheap labor) again? Do i need to bring up the unfair taxes? The ridiculous EPA requirements? Seriously look at politics/laws revolving around the auto industry since Toyota came to the US in the 80s and you'll realize that it's rigged; it was the only way greedy CEOs could compete without cutting their own pay/stepping up their game, by replacing metal with plastic, american with mexican workers, raising taxes on imports, creating unfair EPA regulations and etc.

Also, overbuilt is relative. It is built to be a workhorse that lasts, and for those who are looking for that sort of thing... it's perfect. You can have your opinions, but please know that it's nothing more than an opinion.

"And I also don't see the US government buying 70 series vehicles for large fleets once the Big Three lobbyists crank into gear. The vast majority of public (municipal, state and federal) fleets of utility vehicles are domestic for a reason, and it's not because they are necessarily the best vehicles."
"thus not worth Toyota going through all the EPA and DOT hoops to make these things compliant.""

Exactly. I don't see how you understand this while still claiming that it's expensive because it's overbuilt and etc. Toyota asks a fair price for the 70 series everywhere except for the countries where the import taxes/politics make it nearly impossible to do so. Take out the politics and put the big 3 next to Toyota and do a fair side by side, maybe then you'll see the night and day difference.

Simple fact is they make disposable plastic vehicles because it's more profitable, at almost the cost of the real deal from Toyota. Because of that they need to add little gimmicks that real workers don't care about like apple carplay and heated seats, because they know that the Core of the work truck pales in comparison to the Land Cruiser workhorse. Because of that they lobby and lobby to rig the system to not give people a choice, because they know that on a fair playingfield, that their disposable plastic cars don't stand a chance.

"Barring a handful of Cruiserheads (and I do mean a handful) clamoring for one, the US market for a 76 series pickup would be TINY"
The amount of ignorance in this statement is even worse than the first. I can't even dignify that with another response. Also we are talking about the 70s series in general, not just the 76. I wouldn't want the 4.2HZ as my towing platform, but the 4.7 diesel is good enough for me. It's just nice to know that the HZ is 30 years going strong and still in production!

@Gun Runner 5 It's logic alright, i just don't think it's very good logic.

@Exiled is doing nothing more than regurgitating the same ignorant statements that ignorant folks make everywhere about these vehicles. No offense to either of you, but the bigger picture is there for everyone to see. I stand by what i said that America will be no different in terms of demand for LC, and until we are given the option everything regarding actual sales is just pure speculation.

Take out the rigged politics and level the playingfield, and i promise you just me alone can sell more than what some of you guys are claiming.

You’re obviously not a golfer.

 

[Gun Runner 5]

@SharpeCat ..... “@Exiled is doing nothing more than regurgitating the same ignorant statements that ignorant folks make everywhere about these vehicles.”
——————————————————————————————————————————
This same subject matter has been discussed numerous times in various threads and the end result is always the same, NO NEW 70 SERIES IN THE U.S.
As far as “ignorant statements” made by “ignorant folks”, I wouldn’t discount the opinions of folks who currently own 70 Series Land Cruisers and have so for years. They may know what they’re talking about.

 

[OSS]

For those of you still wondering--
LC70 review

 

[SharpeCat]

@SharpeCat ..... “@Exiled is doing nothing more than regurgitating the same ignorant statements that ignorant folks make everywhere about these vehicles.”
——————————————————————————————————————————
This same subject matter has been discussed numerous times in various threads and the end result is always the same, NO NEW 70 SERIES IN THE U.S.
As far as “ignorant statements” made by “ignorant folks”, I wouldn’t discount the opinions of folks who currently own 70 Series Land Cruisers and have so for years. They may know what they’re talking about.

And those folks know about the value of the LC and wouldn’t say something as ignorant as “barring a few enthusiasts nobody wants a 70 series”. If you say something ignorant then people will call you ignorant.

They know what they’re talking about when it comes to finding, restoring and maintaining an old 70 series, does that make them the industry experts on sale speculations for a population of hundreds of millions of people for new LCs?

The difference between what I’m saying and what they’re saying is that you can Google worlds most reliable truck and top manufacturer, and it would yield the Lc and Toyota in results. If I Google “who all would buy a 70 series” it does not yield “farmers and miners from Australia” as a result.

The truth is there for everyone to do a little research and see, but instead some of you refuse to fact check while continuing to make unsubstantiated claims. If that’s not ignorance then what is?

If anything they prove that it’s so high in demand that even ridiculous 25 year rule and ridiculous import process doesn’t stop a lot of people.

@Onur No I don’t, and that is irrelevant bud.

 

[Gun Runner 5]

Even I know when to raise the flag. I wish you luck in your quest.

 

[SharpeCat]

I thought this was a discussion of 70 series viability in US, so what does rest of world have to do with it?

So, apparently you haven't driven one. OK, I'll accept that you'd probably enjoy owning one as an expensive toy. Nevertheless, IMO Stonepa and Exiled are right on target. Toyota wouldn't sell many of these in U.S, and of course the argument is purely academic because they definitely won't be doing that.

Because I mentioned that the US is no special exception, that the same type of people who buy it in the rest of the world are the same who will buy it in the US - in response to a claim/implication that it’s nothing more than a glorified truck for farmers.

 

[SharpeCat]

Even I know when to raise the flag. I wish you luck in your quest. View attachment 2687656

Wise choice.

anyone else want to ignore global facts and pretend that the LC is only for farm boys and people who can afford “an expensive” toy, and want to cite your personal experience consisting of you and a handful of people as proof, and while ignoring global data collected over decades from all over the world?

 

[Gun Runner 5]

Wise choice.

anyone else want to ignore global facts and pretend that the LC is only for farm boys and people who can afford “an expensive” toy, and want to cite your personal experience consisting of you and a handful of people as proof, and while ignoring global data collected over decades from all over the world?

Please send a photo of the first new 70 Series you see at a U.S. Toyota dealer. (assuming you’ve got your “global facts” correct).

 

[SharpeCat]

Please send a photo of the first new 70 Series you see at a U.S. Toyota dealer. (assuming you’ve got your “global facts” correct).

I’m sorry, are you trying to take a cheap shot at me?

My global facts are easily verifiable, I even told you exactly what to plug into Google. Keep on pretending that putting quotes around that will somehow imply that it’s not facts, even though people can easily check them .

lol that’s pathetic that you got nothing left and the only thing you can muster up is a cheap little low blow, and not even a good one. Nice “surrender” I guess.

Please (sarcasm) continue to ignore everything I said about the real reasons why it’s not here (big 3 politics), and pretend that if it doesn’t end up in our lots, it’s because we don’t have enough “farm boys and miners and hobbyists”, and not because of rigged politics starting in the 80s (when Toyota started selling a lot in the Us).

Keep pretending you are right if you don’t see a 70 series in the lots, if it helps you sleep at night; I don’t care because opinions does not change facts.

 

[TonyP]

My personal experience is insignificant compared to the fact that the entire world's experience as a whole trumps it.

Ok...

This thread is great.

I'd like to think one of the largest and most profitable corporations in history, for any industry, has a better grasp on sales projections than a random interweb grandstander.

 

[SharpeCat]

Ok...

This thread is great.

I'd like to think one of the largest and most profitable corporations in history, for any industry, has a better grasp on sales projections than a random interweb grandstander.

When you lack logic, resort to ridicule (literally first lesson in your first College English class, yawnn). Really sad that some of us speaking are in their 40s and above and can't even carry a civil conversation using logic, and thus have to revert to immature name calling that accomplishes nothing productive for the discussion.

This "random interweb grandstander" has obviously done more research than you, mr "the LC is just a glorified farm truck". It's funny how you say that and you're not a farmer, yet you spent how much of your life and money looking for and building these "farmboy" vehicles?

And show me where Toyota themselves says the 70s won't sell in the US, and that it won't sell for the reasons that "only people who want it are farmboys, hobbyists and miners"? Show us where you get your facts smart guy.

I guess it's too tough for you to grasp the fact that it isn't here because of interference from the BIG 3/rigged politics surrounding sales and import of non-domestics, and not because of the lack of "farmboys". Did you ever consider that as a business, Toyota can't officially say that it's because of BIG 3 interference/unfair taxes/laws, so they tell you it's due to a lack of demand because it's an easier pill for people to digest? It also causes less controversy and they aren't ready to go to War with the big 3, which will undoubtedly happen if Toyota went out and said "the real reason is because US manufacturers rigged the system so that their plastic disposable trucks can have a chance of selling".

But that's too much to grasp for you without causing you to revert to your inner-immature self and resort to a pathetic attempt at ridiculing me, so you go on believing that it's because of "lack of farmboys wanting 70 series". Think whatever you want, as It doesn't bother me the least bit. All you're really doing is discouraging people from trying to have a civil conversation with you; even when you are wrong no one will want to correct you because they don't want to deal with your "other half" that can't handle the truth without resorting to name calling.

Like i said, opinions does not change facts. Even if you think little of me, it doesn't take away the truth in what i said.

 

[TonyP]

Think whatever you want, as It doesn't bother me the least bit.

LOL. Clearly.

I suggest downloading Sam Harris' Waking Up app and giving it a try. Maybe it'll help with your lack of self awareness.

 

[SharpeCat]

LOL. Clearly.

I suggest downloading Sam Harris' Waking Up app and giving it a try. Maybe it'll help with your lack of self awareness.

"When you lack logic, resort to ridicule (literally first lesson in your first College English class, yawnn). Really sad that some of us speaking are in their 40s and above and can't even carry a civil conversation using logic, and thus have to revert to immature name calling that accomplishes nothing productive for the discussion."

And i suggest reading "What's in front of you" to help with yours, . No app needed!

 

[AussieHJCruza]

This thread is very amusing and entirely theoretical. Toyota will never sell an #J7# in the USA.

Another thing, I realise it's human nature to wish for what you can't have, but seriously a 70 is not the be all and end all of trucks.

I could go and buy a new VDJ79 (and have had a 2007 model VDJ79) but for what they cost, there are better options for how I personally use a vehicle. If I had the cash lying around, damn yes I'd have one, but from a practicality and livability perspective, no thanks. Pay 85k for a truck that you need to (imho) drop 5k of suspension and a couple of grand of mod-cons on to make it livable as a daily

YMMV

 

[SharpeCat]

This thread is very amusing and entirely theoretical. Toyota will never sell an #J7# in the USA.

Another thing, I realise it's human nature to wish for what you can't have, but seriously a 70 is not the be all and end all of trucks.

I could go and buy a new VDJ79 (and have had a 2007 model VDJ79) but for what they cost, there are better options for how I personally use a vehicle. If I had the cash lying around, damn yes I'd have one, but from a practicality and livability perspective, no thanks. Pay 85k for a truck that you need to (imho) drop 5k of suspension and a couple of grand of mod-cons on to make it livable as a daily

YMMV

"but seriously a 70 is not the be all and end all of trucks." No one said it was but considering the disposable/plastic competition, there is a big difference.

You seem to confuse a work truck with a daily driver with creature comforts/aka a luxury vehicle. "Livability"? Are you driving these things to work or living in them?

You can have your heated leather seats while youre driving to work for 10-15 years, and i'll drive mine for 25+ years and for the extra 10-15 years it's definitely better to have a running truck than a truck that sits in the junkyard... but hey at least it can keep your butt warm even if more important mechanical parts fail (assuming heated leather seats still work, which is a bold assumption)!

You are welcome to believe that most of the world's WORK FORCE want things like heated leather seats and apple car play over a thicker frame/reliable mechanical components, but the fact is that global sales for the 70s paint a very different story. Your speculations doesn't hold up when compared to actual sales.

You also seem to confuse "how you would personally" use it with "how the world actually uses it". Doesn't matter how many personal examples you share, the fact of the matter is it is the #1 most dependable work truck in the entire world and has been thoroughly tested for practicality, which trumps your personal opinion by a long shot.

And the "imho" needs to be before "Toyota will never sell an #J7# in the US", unless you really want to stand behind that ignorant statement. Toyota already has sold 70s in the US, our enthusiasts love them so much that they are willing to wait 25 + years and then go across the world to bring one back. A new one will only make that easier.

 

[AussieHJCruza]

"but seriously a 70 is not the be all and end all of trucks." No one said it was but compared to what the competition is, there is a big difference.

You seem to confuse a work truck with a daily driver with creature comforts. You can have your heated leather seats while youre driving to work for 10-15 years, and i'll drive mine for 25+ years and for the extra 10-15 years it's definitely better to have a running truck than a truck that sits in the junkyard... but hey at least it can keep your butt warm even if more important mechanical parts fail (assuming heated leather seats still work, which is a bold assumption)!

You are welcome to believe that most of the world's WORK FORCE want things like heated leather seats and apple car play over a thicker frame/reliable mechanical components, but the fact is that global sales for the 70s paint a very different story. Speculations versus actual sales.

You also seem to confuse "how you would personally" use it with "how the world actually uses it". Doesn't matter how many personal examples you share, the fact of the matter is it is the #1 most dependable work truck in the entire world and has been thoroughly tested for practicality, which trumps your personal opinion by a long shot.

And Toyota already has sold 70s in the US, our enthusiasts love them so much that they are willing to wait 25 + years and then go across the world to bring one back. A new one will only make that easier.

And the "imho" needs to be before "Toyota will never sell an #J7# in the US", unless you really want to stand behind that ignorant statement.

I do stand by my "ignorant statement" and my real world experience of owning, living with and working on most models of Land Cruiser Toyota has ever made. I suggest that you put your money where your mouth is, get yourself a 70 and enjoy. I'll keep my toy cruisers for weekends and live in comfort with my daily that gets replaced every 3 or 4 years.

Over and out

 

[SharpeCat]

I do stand by my "ignorant statement" and my real world experience of owning, living with and working on most models of Land Cruiser Toyota has ever made. I suggest that you put your money where your mouth is, get yourself a 70 and enjoy. I'll keep my toy cruisers for weekends and live in comfort with my daily that gets replaced every 3 or 4 years.

Over and out

Then you stand by being wrong.

Again, you seem to confuse "personal experience" with real-world results/facts. The only thing between you and getting over your ignorance is a simple google search to bring up the facts.

If you like to stand behind something blatantly wrong, as in your pride means that much to you, then you go right ahead and stand firm on the fact that you are wrong.

However, You're not fooling anyone but yourself with your claim that "the most popular truck in the entire world" won't sell even 1 copy in the US.

"I suggest that you put your money where your mouth is, get yourself a 70 and enjoy."

Are you... paying attention? Yeah let me just go down the street to my local Toyota Dealership... oh right. I mean, do you want to make it any more obvious you're not from the United States? Yet your head is so far up your ass that you think you can speak for all of us.

" Toyota will never sell an #J7# in the USA."

Do you realize how... ignorant, it is to say this on the biggest LC forum in the World, one that is based... wait for it... wait for it... in the USA! A forum where many members are from the USA, and who do own 70 series (some had to move mountains to get one!) and who wouldn't trade it for any other truck. A forum full of people like that, yet you claim no one will buy one from the US.

Get your head out of your ass, mate.

 

[AirheadNut]

Let's see some references. Where do you find that the Land Cruiser 70-series is the "most popular truck in the world"? Annual worldwide sales figures for the LC (including 200-series) stood at around 400,000 in 2019, as opposed to 896,000 Ford pickups, 575,000 Chevy Silverados (US only), and 633,000 RAM pickups. The LC doesn't even come close, especially considering that the lion's share of the Big 3 pickups are sold in North America, and the LC is sold in around 170 countries around the world.

I would like to see the data that says that members of the US workforce want a small, cramped, underpowered, rough-riding pickup with a small towing capacity, rather than the pickups already on offer.

The US market is most definitely an outlier in the automotive world. We don't have the kind of driving conditions that necessitate something as robust as a 70-series, but we do have conditions that require more than the 70-series can offer. You'll never find a VDJ79 towing 18,000lbs of excavating equipment, or pulling a 35' RV at 75mph. You also won't find a Ford, Chevy or Dodge hauling way more than it's rated for through knee-deep mud and over crazy, rocky goat trails through the mountains, because those conditions don't exist in everyday life here.

Have you ever driven a 70-series, or even seen one in person? They most definitely are a "glorified farm truck", and as such are cramped, uncomfortable and gutless (relative to basically every other new vehicle on the market).

"Research" and "facts" aren't research and facts without references and data to back them up.

All that said, I have loved every 70-series I've owned, and hope to have more in the future. I love the way they drive and ride and can put up with the relative discomfort just fine, but like all the US-based members of this forum, I'm in a very small minority.

 

[SharpeCat]

Finally some actual logic and not brainless bashing and unsubstantiated claims. Thanks for that.

The LC is the most popular truck of the world where they are offered (which is vast majority of countries outside of the US). I didn't think i needed to clarify that the US numbers are exempt from a global work truck comparison, seeing as the LC isn't even offered here. Remove the countries where they aren't offered and what's left? Does Ford still come out on top for all the countries where people are actually given a choice? The LC has over 10 million sales with a tiny fraction of that being US-Sales, what's the F series global sales not counting the US compared to the 10 million (from your first link)? I also want you to focus on the bigger picture and look at the past 3-4 decades and not just any 1 year.

Now, for a few decades Toyota hasn't been able to tap into the biggest market in the world (the US) with their flagship model, how many more sales would they have if US manufacturers didn't lobby for the 25% import tax and lobby for more strict emissions requirements? I get that it hasn't stopped Toyota from bringing in a lot of models, but since the tax is % based, then it means their Flagship model/most expensive models will be hit the hardest by the tax; this put the 70s series in this awkward bracket where its too expensive to be a work truck, and not luxurious enough to be a luxury SUV. Because of the tax Toyota is forced to either sell budget models that are affected less by taxes, or super pricey models where the kind of people who buy it won't mind that it's $100k after import taxes (80s,100s,200s). If super pricey then they will need to add a lot of comforts to justify the cost.

The problem here is that when looking for a work truck, people want something cost-effective. Before the ridiculous 25% import tax, the 70s was competitive and just reasonably higher-priced, given the high-quality build; reasonable enough for many to consider spending a little more to get a longer-lasting truck. After the tax it becomes more priced like a Range Rover, without all the creature comforts; Of course that won't sell. But what if the Big 3 never interfered in the politics and the different trucks were put into a fair market, and because of that the 70s were sold at closer to what Toyota intended - aka the cost of a comparable F series?

You have to remember that in the 80s, Toyota was able to bring in comparable models from overseas and sell it for $5-10k cheaper than competing US-models (ex. Corolla vs Focus). Because of that the Big 3 auto manufacturers looked for ways to compete. This lead to the creation of NAFTA so that they can get mexican labor for cheap, lead to import taxes, lead to things like strict EPA standards that made it difficult for Toyota and etc. If the 25% tax never happened and a more sensible tax was put in place, then the 70 series would be much closer to the cost of US trucks at the time. What if the big 3 never interfered and played dirty? How different would your numbers look if the top choice for vast majority of the world (except US) at the time, was also given to the US-market and at a fair price?

The reason i want you to look at the bigger picture/decades is because there is a pattern from US-manufacturers of cutting corners to maximize profit:
-NAFTA replaced skilled American labor force with Mexican factory workers who have never assembled a Beetle before in their life, but all of a sudden they were in charge of all the Beetles. This opened the window for massive more outsourcing that followed over next few decades; American cars no longer means made in America.
-NAFTA also allowed them to produce in mexico, and be able to import it back without having to pay ridiculous import taxes, taxes that they are now exempt from thanks to NAFTA.
-they replaced metal with plastic where they could.
-they lobbied for unfair EPA/emission standards that made things difficult for Toyota

Meanwhile Toyota's design philosophy behind the LC hasn't changed, meaning they do not cut corners on the LC.

My point is that if the Big 3 made such great vehicles at such competitive prices, then they wouldn't need to resort to dirty play/sabotage in order to compete with Toyota. And if they didn't resort to playing dirty, then perception of the LC would be much different now, as well as the sale figures.

It's easy to say it won't sell when it's not allowed to be sold, but in a fair market if you guys really think people who knew the difference would choose the company that's quick to replace skilled American with unskilled Mexican workers, metal with plastic parts, and just willing to play dirty in general for profits.. over the honest company that focuses on making quality vehicles that sells themselves... then like i said, it's your money. Just don't say i didn't warn you!

I also ignored the rest of your points because they are opinions, let's not get into the underpowered uncomfortable debate because it's relative (its not that uncomfortable and it's a work truck not a truck to take you to get your hair done so get over it lol, it's not hard to add those comforts in the 21st century), and because people who need 18k towing capacity are in the very very low minority. You are using personal examples and small segments over short periods of time, to back up claims that the legendary LC itself is nothing more than a "glorified farm vehicle". The truth is the world uses it for much more than that.

 

[Bludozer]

Even if the 7x variant cruisers would sell well in the US new, it is not possible for Toyota to bring them here in their current form. Most of the powerplants wouldn't meet emissions requirements, and none of them would meet safety standards. Toyota is not going to rework the entire platform for the US. Keep dreaming. This is the most beaten to death topic on mud.