Should Toyota sell the 70 series in lieu of the 300?

[SharpeCat]

A 79 Series with basic options (A/C, Power windows, ect...) would cost about $55k-$60K, for a glorified farm truck. A Wrangler or new Bronco is about $40k with considerably more options and market heritage in the US. A new 70 would be a niche within a niche in the US.

I think you may be underestimating the demand of a land cruiser. It's not just farmers and miners that buy these things like some of you seem to think, but i don't need to explain that on a LC forum, do i? Especially to @TonyP out of all people (someone who isn't a farmer), who spends so much of his life doing a great job at building very capable off-roading beasts (and spending a lot of $$ i'm sure). Also, even with the market heritage in the US (largely due to a rigged market that favors domestics), i think you may be underestimating how competitive a 70s series would be. It can be easily marketed as the Jeep that lasts twice as long but costs only 20% more (after you level the playing field/undo unfair taxes). That and LC has market heritage all over the world, so that can translate over and easily compete with just US heritage.

Enthusiasts, farmers, and miners are just the tip of the iceberg. Just look at what the rest of the world uses them for and that will give us an idea; america is not some kind of special exception, as we aren't the only developed country with a lot of nice paved roads.

I'm surprised no one has brought up how much our own government would buy, seeing as how we already buy them overseas as well as have a fleet of them here for special forces. Someone did bring up fleet sales which is a good point. How many companies would consider a fleet of 200 series versus 70 series? After that heist video i know a lot of armored truck companies are considering them now XD. These 70 series are the literal workhorses of the world due to their reliability and capability, and i can think of plenty of US companies that would love a truck that spends more time working the field and less time in the shop needing repairs.

And there's people like my uncle, who spends 50k on a premium tundra just because it looked nice and hella capable towing capacity on paper, but i've never seen him tow a single thing with it. I don't think he would mind another 10k for one that would last almost twice as long, that's before you bring the name Land Cruiser into the picture. He's no enthusiast, but even a farmboy from Vietnam (where LCs do not exist) knows what a Land Cruiser is and knows the value of them. I think people like him who just like the look of a badass truck/piece of history in his driveway, are more common than some of us may think. I'd go as far as to say that most people buy beyond their needs. When i drive through my parent's 55+ community, i see a lot of nice trucks and can't help but think those people will never actually need its capabilities; maybe the old man just loves how a 2500 RAM looks?

And there's people like me who will buy a used one after 10 years, who will not be supporting the first-few-year/new sales, but who will keep the used sales/sales over decades/resale value high.

I could go on all day, but i see a lot of assumptions being made that i know can't be backed up regarding sales in the US. Again, i stand by what i said earlier about the biggest reason why the 70s series isn't available in the US being "BIG 3" politics, that screwed over everyone except for the highly-paid CEOs of big auto manufacturers (starting with NAFTA). The US is the home of Jeep after all, the same company that sued Toyota back in the days for calling the Land Cruiser a Toyota Jeep (TJ) originally. If you take the ridiculously unfair taxes, alone, out of the equation, then it makes the 70s series much more viable.

I honestly think the only reason Jeep even has a chance is because the Laws are rigged to make it nearly impossible for Toyota to profit with the LC/compete with US manufacturers; and that like the rest of the world, if given the choice, we too would choose an LC over a wrangler. There was a time when the two was the same vehicle (20s series), but for a few decades now wranglers have been built with "maximizing profit" in mind, while (as we all know) Toyota has kept their focus on simply building the most reliable truck possible. The two should never even be close to the same price, as so much more work went into the LC than wrangler. The amazing part is that once you remove the politics/unfair taxes, they aren't that far off. Then, once you consider that after decades of selling a model, that manufacturers become more efficient/produce higher quantities and thus lower the cost of each.

I'd go as far as to say that if the Big 3 US Auto manufacturers (Chevy, Chrysler and Ford) didn't rig our politics system starting back in the 80s, that a 70 series would be the same cost or potentially even cheaper than a Wrangler by now. Imagine if Toyota got hundreds of billions in bailouts/government assistance, and then proceeded to not spend it on private jets/mansions for their CEOs!

 

[SharpeCat]

This photo (2019 70 Series Meet & Greet) shows that if you want a 70 Series, you can have a 70 Series. View attachment 2685419

Now if only we can get a new one instead of a 25+ year old one for $30-40k (for a decent condition). The dream! Beautiful picture minus the lost 80s XD. Jk.

 

[Gun Runner 5]

One of the reasons I like my 70 Series is the novelty. If they were sold at our local dealership the novelty would disappear. Next thing you know some aftermarket guys would would selling an “angry eye“ conversion for the 70 Series.

 

[SharpeCat]

One of the reasons I like my 70 Series is the novelty. If they were sold at our local dealership the novelty would disappear. Next thing you know some aftermarket guys would would selling an “angry eye“ conversion for the 70 Series.

I mean, that's not a bad idea. I'm getting a 3d Printer soon just let me know if you want 1 shipped your way ; You can have the prototype!

That's a good point, but i think you'll be fine with the loss of novelty if it means getting the same vehicle but 25 years newer (or more!) for almost the same price! That and you can just go right down the street and buy it the old-fashioned way; rather than have to ask the grandkids to help you figure the internet, deal with scammers/find middlemans, having to become an expert in import laws and etc. Let's just say there is a good reason i am driving a 200 series around, even though i spent the most time looking for a Troop Carrier 70 series XD.

 

[Gun Runner 5]

I mean, that's not a bad idea. I'm getting a 3d Printer soon just let me know if you want 1 shipped your way ; You can have the prototype!

That's a good point, but i think you'll be fine with the loss of novelty if it means getting the same vehicle but 25 years newer (or more!) for almost the same price! That and you can just go right down the street and buy it the old-fashioned way; rather than have to ask the grandkids to help you figure the internet, deal with scammers/find middlemans, having to become an expert in import laws and etc. Let's just say there is a good reason i am driving a 200 series around, even though i spent the most time looking for a Troop Carrier 70 series XD.

No one will walk up to your 200 Series a say “cool Jeep” but they will if you own a 70 Series so that’s one thing you’re missing out on.

 

[SharpeCat]

No one will walk up to your 200 Series a say “cool Jeep” but they will if you own a 70 Series so that’s one thing you’re missing out on.

True, True.

But i do get cool points for the car being able to raise/lower itself!

 

[TonyP]

Especially to @TonyP out of all people (someone who isn't a farmer), who spends so much of his life doing a great job at building very capable off-roading beasts (and spending a lot of $$ i'm sure).

Maybe. I'm actually staggeringly dumb. If anything I'm just smart enough to know how incredibly dumb I am. It's a curse really.

So take anything I say with a handful of Mortons

 

[300blk]

Aspen douchenozzles and tech bros pay 250k for an FJ company bastardmobile, but Toyota says there’s no demand for a 70.

 

[Exiled]

Imagine the average American buyer of a utility truck walking into a Toyota dealership and seeing these things parked in one corner of the lot. A full third of them couldn't fit their ample frames into the driver's seat and feel comfortable, and that's before they started looking for all the creature comforts they've come to expect in their Tundras, F150s and Silverados. Two crappy cupholders that will barely fit a Solo cup, plain seats with sub-par adjustments, dismal storage, utilitarian interior, no electronic gimmicks. Underpowered (vs, the average US market pickup), uncomfortable (again, to the average American driver), and VERY expensive due to the nature of an over-built, over-engineered global platform. Barring a handful of Cruiserheads (and I do mean a handful) clamoring for one, the US market for a 76 series pickup would be TINY and thus not worth Toyota going through all the EPA and DOT hoops to make these things compliant. And I also don't see the US government buying 70 series vehicles for large fleets once the Big Three lobbyists crank into gear. The vast majority of public (municipal, state and federal) fleets of utility vehicles are domestic for a reason, and it's not because they are necessarily the best vehicles.

 

[Gun Runner 5]

Imagine the average American buyer of a utility truck walking into a Toyota dealership and seeing these things parked in one corner of the lot. A full third of them couldn't fit their ample frames into the driver's seat and feel comfortable, and that's before they started looking for all the creature comforts they've come to expect in their Tundras, F150s and Silverados. Two crappy cupholders that will barely fit a Solo cup, plain seats with sub-par adjustments, dismal storage, utilitarian interior, no electronic gimmicks. Underpowered (vs, the average US market pickup), uncomfortable (again, to the average American driver), and VERY expensive due to the nature of an over-built, over-engineered global platform. Barring a handful of Cruiserheads (and I do mean a handful) clamoring for one, the US market for a 76 series pickup would be TINY and thus not worth Toyota going through all the EPA and DOT hoops to make these things compliant. And I also don't see the US government buying 70 series vehicles for large fleets once the Big Three lobbyists crank into gear. The vast majority of public (municipal, state and federal) fleets of utility vehicles are domestic for a reason, and it's not because they are necessarily the best vehicles.

Please don’t introduce “logic” into an otherwise entertaining thread.

 

[Exiled]

LOL! Word. My bad!

 

[300blk]

Imagine the average American buyer of a utility truck walking into a Toyota dealership and seeing these things parked in one corner of the lot. A full third of them couldn't fit their ample frames into the driver's seat and feel comfortable, and that's before they started looking for all the creature comforts they've come to expect in their Tundras, F150s and Silverados. Two crappy cupholders that will barely fit a Solo cup, plain seats with sub-par adjustments, dismal storage, utilitarian interior, no electronic gimmicks. Underpowered (vs, the average US market pickup), uncomfortable (again, to the average American driver), and VERY expensive due to the nature of an over-built, over-engineered global platform. Barring a handful of Cruiserheads (and I do mean a handful) clamoring for one, the US market for a 76 series pickup would be TINY and thus not worth Toyota going through all the EPA and DOT hoops to make these things compliant. And I also don't see the US government buying 70 series vehicles for large fleets once the Big Three lobbyists crank into gear. The vast majority of public (municipal, state and federal) fleets of utility vehicles are domestic for a reason, and it's not because they are necessarily the best vehicles.

Because the Tacoma and 4Runner are such luxurious vehicles in their most base trims.

 

[TonyP]

Because the Tacoma and 4Runner are such luxurious vehicles in their most base trims.

A Tacoma or 4Runner, in base trim, are like flying in an Emirates First Class suite to the UAE compared to the Spirit Airlines coach flight to Atlanta that is a base 79 series.

 

[SharpeCat]

Imagine the average American buyer of a utility truck walking into a Toyota dealership and seeing these things parked in one corner of the lot. A full third of them couldn't fit their ample frames into the driver's seat and feel comfortable, and that's before they started looking for all the creature comforts they've come to expect in their Tundras, F150s and Silverados. Two crappy cupholders that will barely fit a Solo cup, plain seats with sub-par adjustments, dismal storage, utilitarian interior, no electronic gimmicks. Underpowered (vs, the average US market pickup), uncomfortable (again, to the average American driver), and VERY expensive due to the nature of an over-built, over-engineered global platform. Barring a handful of Cruiserheads (and I do mean a handful) clamoring for one, the US market for a 76 series pickup would be TINY and thus not worth Toyota going through all the EPA and DOT hoops to make these things compliant. And I also don't see the US government buying 70 series vehicles for large fleets once the Big Three lobbyists crank into gear. The vast majority of public (municipal, state and federal) fleets of utility vehicles are domestic for a reason, and it's not because they are necessarily the best vehicles.

Good points but ultimately more assumptions that you can't back up, and points that we've already ran in circles about. Here we go again!

"Imagine the average American buyer of a utility truck"
"A full third of them couldn't fit their ample frames into the driver's seat and feel comfortable"
The amount of ignorance in these statements is ridiculous, i didn't realize that so much of America's work force was overweight and couldn't fit into a truck that the rest of the world's workforce has no problem fitting into.

"Two crappy cupholders that will barely fit a Solo cup, plain seats with sub-par adjustments, dismal storage, utilitarian interior, no electronic gimmicks."
Because this is more important than reliability and performance for a utility truck?

"Underpowered (vs, the average US market pickup)"
Underpowered is relative, underpowered for what application? How many Americans will be pushing this thing beyond what mining companies in Australia are doing with them? If it can handle australia's demands it can handle the US.

"uncomfortable (again, to the average American driver)"
Again, are you looking for a work truck or a truck to take to the salon to get your nails painted? I'd rather have a vinyl truck that lasts than a leather one that costs twice as much to keep running over 20 years.

"and VERY expensive due to the nature of an over-built"

Correction, VERY expensive MOSTLY due to the fact that BIG 3 politics has made it nearly impossible for Toyota to bring them in**. Instead of stepping up their game in terms of matching or out-doing Japanese quality/cost, US manufacturers decided to rig the system and cut corners. Do i need to bring up NAFTA (cheap labor) again? Do i need to bring up the unfair taxes? The ridiculous EPA requirements? Seriously look at politics/laws revolving around the auto industry since Toyota came to the US in the 80s and you'll realize that it's rigged; it was the only way greedy CEOs could compete without cutting their own pay/stepping up their game, by replacing metal with plastic, american with mexican workers, raising taxes on imports, creating unfair EPA regulations and etc.

Also, overbuilt is relative. It is built to be a workhorse that lasts, and for those who are looking for that sort of thing... it's perfect. You can have your opinions, but please know that it's nothing more than an opinion.

"And I also don't see the US government buying 70 series vehicles for large fleets once the Big Three lobbyists crank into gear. The vast majority of public (municipal, state and federal) fleets of utility vehicles are domestic for a reason, and it's not because they are necessarily the best vehicles."
"thus not worth Toyota going through all the EPA and DOT hoops to make these things compliant.""

Exactly. I don't see how you understand this while still claiming that it's expensive because it's overbuilt and etc. Toyota asks a fair price for the 70 series everywhere except for the countries where the import taxes/politics make it nearly impossible to do so. Take out the politics and put the big 3 next to Toyota and do a fair side by side, maybe then you'll see the night and day difference.

Simple fact is they make disposable plastic vehicles because it's more profitable, at almost the cost of the real deal from Toyota. Because of that they need to add little gimmicks that real workers don't care about like apple carplay and heated seats, because they know that the Core of the work truck pales in comparison to the Land Cruiser workhorse. Because of that they lobby and lobby to rig the system to not give people a choice, because they know that on a fair playingfield, that their disposable plastic cars don't stand a chance.

"Barring a handful of Cruiserheads (and I do mean a handful) clamoring for one, the US market for a 76 series pickup would be TINY"
The amount of ignorance in this statement is even worse than the first. I can't even dignify that with another response. Also we are talking about the 70s series in general, not just the 76. I wouldn't want the 4.2HZ as my towing platform, but the 4.7 diesel is good enough for me. It's just nice to know that the HZ is 30 years going strong and still in production!

@Gun Runner 5 It's logic alright, i just don't think it's very good logic.

@Exiled is doing nothing more than regurgitating the same ignorant statements that ignorant folks make everywhere about these vehicles. No offense to either of you, but the bigger picture is there for everyone to see. I stand by what i said that America will be no different in terms of demand for LC, and until we are given the option everything regarding actual sales is just pure speculation.

Take out the rigged politics and level the playingfield, and i promise you just me alone can sell more than what some of you guys are claiming.

 

[TonyP]

Good points but ultimately more assumptions that you can't back up, and points that we've already ran in circles about. Here we go again!

"Imagine the average American buyer of a utility truck"
"A full third of them couldn't fit their ample frames into the driver's seat and feel comfortable"
The amount of ignorance in these statements is ridiculous, i didn't realize that so much of America's work force was overweight and couldn't fit into a truck that the rest of the world's workforce has no problem fitting into.

"Two crappy cupholders that will barely fit a Solo cup, plain seats with sub-par adjustments, dismal storage, utilitarian interior, no electronic gimmicks."
Because this is more important than reliability and performance for a utility truck?

"Underpowered (vs, the average US market pickup)"
Underpowered is relative, underpowered for what application? How many Americans will be pushing this thing beyond what mining companies in Australia are doing with them? If it can handle australia's demands it can handle the US.

"uncomfortable (again, to the average American driver)"
Again, are you looking for a work truck or a truck to take to the salon to get your nails painted? I'd rather have a vinyl truck that lasts than a leather one that costs twice as much to keep running over 20 years.

"and VERY expensive due to the nature of an over-built"

Correction, VERY expensive MOSTLY due to the fact that BIG 3 politics has made it nearly impossible for Toyota to bring them in**. Instead of stepping up their game in terms of matching or out-doing Japanese quality, US manufacturers decided to rig the system and cut corners. Do i need to bring up NAFTA again (cheap labor) again? Do i need to bring up the unfair taxes? The ridiculous EPA requirements? Seriously look at politics/laws revolving around the auto industry since Toyota came to the US in the 80s and you'll realize that it's rigged; it was the only way greedy CEOs could compete without cutting their own pay/stepping up their game, by replacing metal with plastic, american with mexican workers, raising taxes on imports, creating unfair EPA regulations and etc.

Also, overbuilt is relative. It is built to be a workhorse that lasts, and for those who are looking for that sort of thing... it's perfect. You can have your opinions, but please know that it's nothing more than an opinion.

"And I also don't see the US government buying 70 series vehicles for large fleets once the Big Three lobbyists crank into gear. The vast majority of public (municipal, state and federal) fleets of utility vehicles are domestic for a reason, and it's not because they are necessarily the best vehicles."
"thus not worth Toyota going through all the EPA and DOT hoops to make these things compliant.""

Exactly. I don't see how you understand this while still claiming that it's expensive because it's overbuilt and etc. Toyota asks a fair price for the 70 series everywhere except for the countries where the import taxes make it nearly impossible to do so. Take out the politics and but the big 3 next to Toyota and do a fair side by side, maybe then you'll see the night and day difference.

Simple fact is they make disposable plastic vehicles because it's more profitable, at almost the cost of the real deal from Toyota. Because of that they need to add little gimmicks that real workers don't care about like apple carplay and heated seats, because they know that the Core of the work truck pales in comparison to the Land Cruiser workhorse. Because of that they lobby and lobby to rig the system to not give people a choice, because they know that on a fair playingfield, that their disposable plastic cars don't stand a chance.

"Barring a handful of Cruiserheads (and I do mean a handful) clamoring for one, the US market for a 76 series pickup would be TINY"
The amount of ignorance in this statement is even worse than the first. I can't even dignify that with another response.

@Gun Runner 5 It's logic alright, i just don't think it's very good logic.

@Exiled is doing nothing more than regurgitating the same ignorant statements that ignorant folks make everywhere about these vehicles. No offense to either of you, but the bigger picture is there for everyone to see. I stand by what i said that America will be no different in terms of demand for LC, and until we are given the option everything regarding actual sales is just pure speculation.

Take out the rigged politics and level the playingfield, and i promise you just me alone can sell more than what some of you guys are claiming.

What is your personal experience with a 70 series? Driven? Rode in? Saw one in the parking lot?

 

[300blk]

A Tacoma or 4Runner, in base trim, are like flying in an Emirates First Class suite to the UAE compared to the Spirit Airlines coach flight to Atlanta that is a base 79 series.

I am the proud owner of a 2010 Tacoma short cab short bed 4x4.

It has a manual transmission.

It has hand crank windows, manual door locks, and other luxury features which include heater and air-conditioning.

They would never import the workmate, the GX/GXL are slightly above that.

 

[SharpeCat]

What is your personal experience with a 70 series? Driven? Rode in? Saw one in the parking lot?

My personal experience is insignificant compared to the fact that the entire world's experience as a whole trumps it.


/beginsarcasm
Don't take my word for it and keep living in your own reality where the LC is such a bad deal that people felt so bad for it and bought enough of it to make it the #1 Truck in the world, and Toyota the #1 manufacturer with it.
/endsarcasm

I gotta throw the sarcasm lines in there because things get taken out of context so easily nowadays.

 

[Devils Paw 80]

My personal experience is insignificant compared to the fact that the entire world's experience as a whole trumps it.

I thought this was a discussion of 70 series viability in US, so what does rest of world have to do with it?

So, apparently you haven't driven one. OK, I'll accept that you'd probably enjoy owning one as an expensive toy. Nevertheless, IMO Stonepa and Exiled are right on target. Toyota wouldn't sell many of these in U.S, and of course the argument is purely academic because they definitely won't be doing that.

 

[AussieHJCruza]

Good points but ultimately more assumptions that you can't back up, and points that we've already ran in circles about. Here we go again!

"Imagine the average American buyer of a utility truck"
"A full third of them couldn't fit their ample frames into the driver's seat and feel comfortable"
The amount of ignorance in these statements is ridiculous, i didn't realize that so much of America's work force was overweight and couldn't fit into a truck that the rest of the world's workforce has no problem fitting into.

"Two crappy cupholders that will barely fit a Solo cup, plain seats with sub-par adjustments, dismal storage, utilitarian interior, no electronic gimmicks."
Because this is more important than reliability and performance for a utility truck?

"Underpowered (vs, the average US market pickup)"
Underpowered is relative, underpowered for what application? How many Americans will be pushing this thing beyond what mining companies in Australia are doing with them? If it can handle australia's demands it can handle the US.

"uncomfortable (again, to the average American driver)"
Again, are you looking for a work truck or a truck to take to the salon to get your nails painted? I'd rather have a vinyl truck that lasts than a leather one that costs twice as much to keep running over 20 years.

"and VERY expensive due to the nature of an over-built"

Correction, VERY expensive MOSTLY due to the fact that BIG 3 politics has made it nearly impossible for Toyota to bring them in**. Instead of stepping up their game in terms of matching or out-doing Japanese quality/cost, US manufacturers decided to rig the system and cut corners. Do i need to bring up NAFTA (cheap labor) again? Do i need to bring up the unfair taxes? The ridiculous EPA requirements? Seriously look at politics/laws revolving around the auto industry since Toyota came to the US in the 80s and you'll realize that it's rigged; it was the only way greedy CEOs could compete without cutting their own pay/stepping up their game, by replacing metal with plastic, american with mexican workers, raising taxes on imports, creating unfair EPA regulations and etc.

Also, overbuilt is relative. It is built to be a workhorse that lasts, and for those who are looking for that sort of thing... it's perfect. You can have your opinions, but please know that it's nothing more than an opinion.

"And I also don't see the US government buying 70 series vehicles for large fleets once the Big Three lobbyists crank into gear. The vast majority of public (municipal, state and federal) fleets of utility vehicles are domestic for a reason, and it's not because they are necessarily the best vehicles."
"thus not worth Toyota going through all the EPA and DOT hoops to make these things compliant.""

Exactly. I don't see how you understand this while still claiming that it's expensive because it's overbuilt and etc. Toyota asks a fair price for the 70 series everywhere except for the countries where the import taxes/politics make it nearly impossible to do so. Take out the politics and put the big 3 next to Toyota and do a fair side by side, maybe then you'll see the night and day difference.

Simple fact is they make disposable plastic vehicles because it's more profitable, at almost the cost of the real deal from Toyota. Because of that they need to add little gimmicks that real workers don't care about like apple carplay and heated seats, because they know that the Core of the work truck pales in comparison to the Land Cruiser workhorse. Because of that they lobby and lobby to rig the system to not give people a choice, because they know that on a fair playingfield, that their disposable plastic cars don't stand a chance.

"Barring a handful of Cruiserheads (and I do mean a handful) clamoring for one, the US market for a 76 series pickup would be TINY"
The amount of ignorance in this statement is even worse than the first. I can't even dignify that with another response. Also we are talking about the 70s series in general, not just the 76. I wouldn't want the 4.2HZ as my towing platform, but the 4.7 diesel is good enough for me. It's just nice to know that the HZ is 30 years going strong and still in production!

@Gun Runner 5 It's logic alright, i just don't think it's very good logic.

@Exiled is doing nothing more than regurgitating the same ignorant statements that ignorant folks make everywhere about these vehicles. No offense to either of you, but the bigger picture is there for everyone to see. I stand by what i said that America will be no different in terms of demand for LC, and until we are given the option everything regarding actual sales is just pure speculation.

Take out the rigged politics and level the playingfield, and i promise you just me alone can sell more than what some of you guys are claiming.

I haven't read all of this, but power is no consideration for mine trucks. They're typically locked into low range, some are limited to first, second and third gears and rpm limited to circa 2600rpm, so nope. Having driven US trucks (we have a GMC Sierra duramax and an F250 tremor powerstroke) a 1VD is absolutely no comparison.

 

[ikarus]

@TonyP I don’t know if you remember this, but on SWAdventure a few years ago I was telling those Australians how much I liked 70 series land cruisers. They told me in a nice way they thought that was stupid as they’re slow uncomfortable work trucks, looked at in AU similarly to how we Americans would look at a 2003 Ford F-250. They were all about the 80 series and 200 series.

i still want one though.