Seeking suspension advice -- unique case
- Thread starter NY2LA
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bloc
SILVER Star
I suggest you talk to Ben at Filthy Motorsports. He can give you a good idea of what can be tuned into suspension. Keep in mind these things can be valved to behave very differently depending on the goals/desires of the driver.
CharlieS
GOLD Star
Lol, I can't say those words entered my head. If I wanted a "plush" ride, I'd be in a Cadillac. I don't think you'll be happy with any aftermarket performance suspension if that is your goal. The HE suspension is better than the aftermarket for what you are asking about. Maybe get some less aggressive tires or lower your pressures. The Land Cruiser is not an especially plush riding platform, never has been.
@CharlieS and @BloggerL, by "plush" do you mean "soft and floaty" or "steady but gobbling up the bumps like they are barely there?" I can create the soft and floaty ride on my Tough Dog suspension by dialing the compression knobs down to 0, but the ride feels uncontrolled like that.
That said I had a chance to drive a buddy's Raptor last year down some washboard gravel roads. It has Kings and I was very impressed by how well it soaked everything up. My LC did fine on the TD suspension I have (even got a compliment from someone else about how nice the ride was), but his ride was a step up for sure. Granted dimensionally the Raptor has a wider track width and wheelbase so I'm not sure how much that plays into it. I've not driven an LC with Kings but if the ride is similar to his Raptor it would absolutely be worth the upgrade.
That said I had a chance to drive a buddy's Raptor last year down some washboard gravel roads. It has Kings and I was very impressed by how well it soaked everything up. My LC did fine on the TD suspension I have (even got a compliment from someone else about how nice the ride was), but his ride was a step up for sure. Granted dimensionally the Raptor has a wider track width and wheelbase so I'm not sure how much that plays into it. I've not driven an LC with Kings but if the ride is similar to his Raptor it would absolutely be worth the upgrade.
NY2LA
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #46
More food for thought I here. I wonder if what would help would be an adjustable system that I can dial in for filming and dial out for more control when not filming and/or when driving harder or offroad. Funny thing is, I actually rented an Escalade for one shoot last year, and we got stuck in the dirt and needed search and rescue to come out. It was that experience that pushed me to the Land Cruiser.
For filming, your biggest bang for your buck by far is going to be some sort of stabilizer mount which isolates the camera from the vehicle. You can drop thousands on a properly tuned high end bypass system but if your camera is picking up any bumps transferred into the vehicle it's going to suck, like watching The Blair Witch project in a big screen theater. Compare that to this video using my GoPro with it's built-in image stabilization... you can see how much the truck is bouncing up and down on the trail, but the video is very smooth.
Not saying you shouldn't use the project to drop $4k large on a custom tuned suspension if you're offroading and it's what you want, but no suspension upgrade is going to make a video camera mounted directly to the vehicle seem smooth
Not saying you shouldn't use the project to drop $4k large on a custom tuned suspension if you're offroading and it's what you want, but no suspension upgrade is going to make a video camera mounted directly to the vehicle seem smooth
bloc
SILVER Star
Adjustable would help with your goals, but you need to do some research on shock piston speed and how damping can be adjusted for the traits you are after. Different systems for easily adjusting the valving might impact different aspects of shock performance.. ie high, middle, or low speed damping.. one knob for compression might adjust all of these at once, or only one end of that spectrum, depending on how it is implemented. For instance, taking the sharpness out of bumps also loosened up body sway control.. this means low-speed damping was probably also adjusted with mid-speed.
This guy gets it.
I don't think all is lost in trying to get what you're looking for. @BloggerL what are your impressions of the stock suspension? Do you feel it's overly soft for your current load? Or pretty good and you would like a bit more plushness on smaller bumps?
The HE is already slightly lifted over the standard LC but you did mention you may want a bit more height. If you do like the suspension overall, there are things you can do to get your cake and eat it too, while incrementally improve small frequency bump handling.
1) Spacer lift - Front OEM shock spacer, Rear 20mm spring spacer. Spacer lifts may have negative connotations but IMO, this is probably appropriate for more builds than not. It offers a slight lift without impacting spring rates or pre-load. Keeps all the goodness of the stock suspension tuning, geometry, plushness, etc, while adding a mild .75" lift.
2) Tires - I've already touched on this but tires really do have a huge impact tuning for ride. Expanding on this
- Tire diameter: Going for a larger diameter is going to give you the type of under axle lift no suspension lift will do. A 33" tire plus that small spacer lift will be a nice 1.5" lift overall. Separately, larger diameter tires are better at smoothing out small road imperfections towards your goal.
The HE is already slightly lifted over the standard LC but you did mention you may want a bit more height. If you do like the suspension overall, there are things you can do to get your cake and eat it too, while incrementally improve small frequency bump handling.
1) Spacer lift - Front OEM shock spacer, Rear 20mm spring spacer. Spacer lifts may have negative connotations but IMO, this is probably appropriate for more builds than not. It offers a slight lift without impacting spring rates or pre-load. Keeps all the goodness of the stock suspension tuning, geometry, plushness, etc, while adding a mild .75" lift.
2) Tires - I've already touched on this but tires really do have a huge impact tuning for ride. Expanding on this
- Tire diameter: Going for a larger diameter is going to give you the type of under axle lift no suspension lift will do. A 33" tire plus that small spacer lift will be a nice 1.5" lift overall. Separately, larger diameter tires are better at smoothing out small road imperfections towards your goal.
NY2LA
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #50
Thanks, guys. I'm going to research all this advice further.
Again, we use all kinds of gimbals and robotics here, as well as some stabilized bodies and lenses. This interior camera needs to be one with the vehicle. Stabilization is not an option on this camera; nor is there room for a stabilizer, as that would push the lens to an unusable location. This is a 15 pound setup bolted through the sunglass holder to the roof. But on the outside, where the camera does not move with the vehicle and we have space for large, heavy devices, we will have vibration isolators and gimbals. Post production takes care of all the bumps. But a little smoothing during acquisition would reduce that labor and help with protecting the gear from thousands of bumps over time, as I will be using it in a longer term manner than a production cam inside a car would typically be used.
Again, we use all kinds of gimbals and robotics here, as well as some stabilized bodies and lenses. This interior camera needs to be one with the vehicle. Stabilization is not an option on this camera; nor is there room for a stabilizer, as that would push the lens to an unusable location. This is a 15 pound setup bolted through the sunglass holder to the roof. But on the outside, where the camera does not move with the vehicle and we have space for large, heavy devices, we will have vibration isolators and gimbals. Post production takes care of all the bumps. But a little smoothing during acquisition would reduce that labor and help with protecting the gear from thousands of bumps over time, as I will be using it in a longer term manner than a production cam inside a car would typically be used.
Don't compromise traction! I think all of us put that as a priority. I just think there's options out there where you can have your cake and eat it too.
KO2's will continue to be a benchmark and they have caused so many others tire brands to step up to make a competitive tire. There's some really great ones that have come out more recently including Toyo AT3s and Falken AT3Ws. Falkens are easily as aggressive (or more) than KO2s. While having better NVH traits. AT3s are just barely more mild than KO2s, and also has great NVH qualities.
Now you have me really curious about the gear you are running. One of the big reasons to move up to a mirrorless camera is the very effective image stabilization built into the camera body, instead of the lens.
NY2LA
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #55
In film and video, stabilization on the sensor is a blessing in some scenarios and a curse in others. With m43, the GH5s is often preferred over the GH5, for example, to avoid vibration of the suspended sensor and the associated motion anomalies. And in some situations, sensor stabilization can act in unpredictable and counter productive ways when used with external motion controllers and gimbals. I use both kinds of bodies. Different tools for different jobs. As for still photography, that's not my forte, so I can't speak to that. I would imagine the more stabilization in camera the better for that, but I'm not sure.
DM if you wanto talk further on this!
Others have mentioned adjustable suspensions, and I have *been told* the OME setup correctly can make the ride more plush. Part of that setup will also be based on weight on your rear springs, and their weights. I believe some of this can be enhanced/softened by airbags to adjust to varied weight loads in the rear, but requires on-board air.
A step to consider might be choosing the tallest, lightest load rating all-terrain tire (capable of supporting your weight+ fully loaded), with decent tread but aiming towards on-road comfort. I would also aim towards the largest tire you can fit to add some more ballooning, and I believe some go down to 17 inch tires as well to increase this. Off road, air down to soften imperfections--you may have to play with this before you find the best combo. Also the traction you lose off-road with a less aggressive tire could be regained by a set or two of Maxtraxs or the other recovery gear you mentioned if travelling alone.
Good luck!
A step to consider might be choosing the tallest, lightest load rating all-terrain tire (capable of supporting your weight+ fully loaded), with decent tread but aiming towards on-road comfort. I would also aim towards the largest tire you can fit to add some more ballooning, and I believe some go down to 17 inch tires as well to increase this. Off road, air down to soften imperfections--you may have to play with this before you find the best combo. Also the traction you lose off-road with a less aggressive tire could be regained by a set or two of Maxtraxs or the other recovery gear you mentioned if travelling alone.
Good luck!
Yeah still photography is different than video.
I'm not a pro still photographer but the general rule is that if you can use a tripod or a fast enough shutter speed you want to shut off any IS since it degrades image quality slightly, but if you can't shoot off a stable platform or use a very high shutter speed then good IS will let you shoot 2 or 3 stops slower/wider than normal with minimal loss of sharpness.
NY2LA
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #59
One more basic question for folks with more experience than me: can I have different tires and pressures at the front than at the rear? It occurs to me that my main issue right now is at the front. The camera in question is almost over the front axle, and the seated passengers (who will be in the front row) are not far behind. So what if I went with more of an all-season tire setup at the front and air that down while keeping KO2s aired up at the back? Is that a recipe for disaster, or could that be a feasible compromise in terms of tires?
Bad idea.
