RTI Ramp/Travel pics, lift changes, sway bars...for reference (1 Viewer)

[landtank]

going with that much drop you might want to capture the spring on the lower perch for safety sake.

 

[concretejungle]

you guys are CRAZY!!

 

[NorCalSam]

Good information Ben.

The pics really help

Thanks
Sam

 

[MaddBaggins]

I haven't been running a front sway bar for quite a while now. I broke the mounts doing to much wheeling/flexing so its been in the garage getting dusty. I still have the rear sway bar and I don't feel any steering issues. I think the heavy springs and D rated tires help minimize the roll. I did remove the rear sway bar for a time and didn't like the body roll for a DD so I put it back.

for the lawyers***this is my truck, not a recomendation***

 

[Slomo]

Man this is great lurking on this thread. Tons of great information to help make decisions on what to do to optimize the suspension when you don't have easy access to a ramp. Thanks FJBen, Nay and cary. You have saved allot of us much trial and error while providing educated views on both sides of the argument to help others make their own decision on what is right for them.

I feel stupid for blindly trusting the OME set up as "optimal" for this rig. Different suspensions for different types of driving. As you all have pointed out these are not "suggestions" just observations. I am going to take this information and make some observations on my 80.

Also where did you get the eye mount conversions?

 

[ed97fzj80]

I love the Bilstein 5100 series in the $65 range. If you look up the specs on these shocks, you find a high compression valving and lower rebound. Many shocks on the market go the other way and focus on rebound control.

Nay

Nay, that's good information on the Bilsteins. Can you elaborate a little on those shocks -- where to buy them at that price, what valving you're using, and so on? DO you believe the same shocks would be appropriate with your basic OME 850/863 setup, or would you do something different there?

 

[FJBen]

Some small testing was done this weekend up at Crystal Mountain, the Horsetooth 4wheelers (we) were building a gate to keep people out at certain times of the year. So this was a good time to test a few poser flex spots.

1st Pic: rear droop, everything was normal, no swaybars, hitch pin IN,...don't think we have a problem here (nevermind the superstar driver and his batgoggles)

2nd Pic: hitch pin pulled, shocks almost maxed in the pic, very level body, axle slightly rotated.

 

[FJBen]

Next 3 pics in true poser fashion...Hitch pin pulled, springs slightly loose at droop, the body is VERY level in these pics, the two tire were fully stuffed, the others pretty well drooped...I didn't lift any tires except for this spot on the way up with my hitch Pin IN, I lifted the rear just barely (fwiw my friends TJ lifted his rear tire in that same spot )

 

[FJBen]

The main things I gathered from the small short trip was definitely helpful.

We drove a canyon road on the way up, fairly fast (over posted speeds NOT RECOMMENDED DON"T SPEED) and the rig performed much better than I thought it would. I don't think my swaybars are ever going back on. We didn't air back up on the way back and the sway was more noticeable (mostly the tires)

The rig performed great, stayed extremely level all through the day. the hitch pin and swaybars DO make a difference. At that pic of me on the rocks, there was another 80 series/thing/FJ40body on an 80 series, with the 2" OME lift, and he lifted tires in the spots I didn't. Did that stop him from the obstacle...HECK NO! Just an observation. The ride was very stable/level and smooth...definitely impressed. I think I'm going to beef up the opposite brackets just to be sure.


#1 if you are going to put on the 4" lift/or just springs from Slee, and have sway bars, the L shocks are a good fit. you won't max them or stuff them up front. With spacers in the rear you won't overcompress them.

without swaybars you may start to come up short on the droop...*maybe* with the hitch pin you will! This goes the same for all OME kits I would wager, if you pull the swaybars AND the hitch pin mod, you will outflex those shocks.

I think some eye/eye shocks up front might also help as there is a lot of pressure on those studs, plus you can taylor the shocks exactly. You then will have a MUCH larger application of shocks to choose from if you are going to mod like I have.

So far I'm very happy....further testing will ensue

 

[Tapage]

So far I'm very happy....further testing will ensue

Nice pics and observations Ben .. I'm pretty sure that you are so happy with your setup.

I need to take pics of your frind's TJ and other rigs in teh same spots to compare

 

[FJBen]

Nice pics and observations Ben .. I'm pretty sure that you are so happy with your setup.

I need to take pics of your frind's TJ and other rigs in teh same spots to compare

thanks man! here's a "sorta" compare shot....friend TJ, (with toyota badge on the grill! ) I know I'm going a different direction and our wheelbases are GREATLY different, positions aren't quite the same, but you can see...defintely comparable...I think I'm actually articulating front/rear more than him in this pic, more twisted anyways. but the front still needs a bit more to compare...VERY close tho.

 

[Tools R Us]

...
The rig performed great, stayed extremely level all through the day. the hitch pin and swaybars DO make a difference. At that pic of me on the rocks, there was another 80 series/thing/FJ40body on an 80 series, with the 2" OME lift, and he lifted tires in the spots I didn't. Did that stop him from the obstacle...HECK NO! Just an observation. The ride was very stable/level and smooth...definitely impressed. I think I'm going to beef up the opposite brackets just to be sure...

That's the first thing that I noticed, even with the sway bars connected with my setup. The front and rear flex is much more equal or balanced making the cab ride more level, reducing the side to side motion on the trail.

 

[FJBen]

A pic of a 60 series on the same spot as my first pic, different angle, Gulp's (on ih8mud) pic.

and the levelness is AWESOME now...just to re-iterate!

 

[Nay]

I'll try to somehow keep this from being a trail report. Ran Spring Creek in Colorado this weekend and I'll keep this discussion to flex/balance/shocks/lift height/bumpstops/35's. OK, that requires a trail report.

First, to answer a post above...I'm on a set of Bilsteins that are in the $100 range...I think you can get the straight 5100's that come in 10/12/14" for about $65 but haven't honestly looked at prices in a long time and they may have gone up. Bilstein has a whole range of shocks for specific lifts where they don't list the specs. There is a straight 11" travel 5125 that is perfect length for the Slee 4" lift (a bit under 5" up and bit over 6" down with eye adapters), but the valving is soft @ 170/60 and I'm not sure you'd like it. You are typically looking for the 255/70 valving in a Bilstein 5100 for a heavier duty offroad application and they have it in every length but 11" in the 5125's.

As a side note to this thread: I apparently have to eat some crow, which I don't favor...in the 255/70 spec the first # is rebound, not compression as I have long believed. Having said this, these shocks still control sway better than anything I've run in the price range. If you take off an OME shock and hold it in your hands you can easily compress it. If you cut the retainer cord off a 255/70 Bilstein 5100 and mount one end thinking you are just going to compress the shock by hand to mount the other end...well....don't cut the cord until you are ready to mount the second end as the shock extends. But I was disseminating false information unintentionally and that needs to be corrected.

Now to performance on the other side of the fence. In something of a straight contrast to FJBen, I have OME caster bushings and no hitch pin mod and about an inch less lift...rear swaybar hooked up and front competely removed. I'm on 10" of suspension travel instead of 11". But I'll report the same thing, which was an unbelievable suspension balance in some pretty hardcore conditions. I've never been on a suspension that did exactly what I wanted it to do exactly when I wanted to do it. My only hangups were in the worst part of the "rock garden" which was just not favoring long wheelbases (always a rock in front of the rear diff when you had the front on the perfect line and that sort of thing).

I flat out walked one section on the harder line where the TJ behind me on 38's ended up hung and winching. Now a lot of that was wheelbase...but the suspension control was just unbelievable in a rear end flexed situation with the front climbing a couple feet up an almost vertical rock on one side. I could have used the hand throttle alone at maybe 1,800 RPM the entire way through. The TJ's were dropping tires into holes and the suspension wanted to drive down where mine was always climbing with little resistance. They'd get on the same line I was on, and when it came time for the right front to climb it would push and the rig would slide down to the left with all four in a hole. I pulled about a 3' wheelstand as it crawled through....not much you can do to keep that other tire on the ground .

I'm gonna do a little hijack and talk about the whole 35's/bumpstops thing on a lower lift. As we know, OME is designed for up travel. On 33's and OME medium I would have been on the bypasses all day long. Last month on a trail a whole class below this one I dragged every mount, damaged a rear quarter panel, and basically found every corner or low point I could find. On the 35's and 3" lift I wasn't dragging anything on a much more serious trail. 3" lift with 35's and a perfectly split shock travel balance (5" up and 5" down) it was in a completely different performance class. You go from a reasonably capable rig to playing with the big dogs (on medium dog trails...we aren't talking extreme here) in one clean step.

I had no issues at all with bottoming out...the only time I felt it at all was hitting some good dips at speed on the way back down the mountain, and I thought I was low on gas (damn gauge was lying to me again) and driving too fast.

First pic below really illustrates to me the value of limiting, or at least balancing, up travel. You see how the rear is stuffed, but not so stuffed like a 33" on too much up travel that the body has dropped close to the ground and started to lean to the side where rocks await? Front is planted, rear is properly flexing, everything is balanced and it was like that all day long.

So...do you need the extra flex that FJBen has unleashed? It probably depends. I say "no" so far from the perspective of a rock crawler focused on climbing ability with this setup...it seems to me that the key is balance however you achieve it...and I've got it. But I can't see where it would hurt in most situations and could help in some (like insisting on driving dead straight through moguls ).

Oh, and 4.10's had the torque converter groaning like crazy on this first climb (it is as steep as it looks), but the hand throttle balanced them out on the other stuff. 88's would be nice offroad, but no reason onroad as OD off and PWR accomplish the same thing.

Nay

 

[sleeoffroad]

If you take off an OME shock and hold it in your hands you can easily compress it. If you cut the retainer cord off a 255/70 Bilstein 5100 and mount one end thinking you are just going to compress the shock by hand to mount the other end

Great write-up Nay. However, in connection to the the above statement. You can not judge the OME valving by the " hand compress" test. The OME has bypass circuits that allow small volumes of fluid to not enter the valving system. That is the reason you can easily compress it by hand. The purpose of this is to allow the shock to cycle easily on small bumps and not transmit all the fluid changes into the valve body. This is the reason for the good performance on corrugated roads.

I had no issues at all with bottoming out...the only time I felt it at all was hitting some good dips at speed on the way back down the mountain, and I thought I was low on gas (damn gauge was lying to me again) and driving too fast.

That is a pretty important point for some people. Rock crawling slow going stuff we tend to do the bump stops are not a huge issues, but personally I do not like it. This comes from wheeling the ShortBus where I have the maximum possible articulation with a stock link setup. Was your truck loaded or not? That is one of the reasons the bias to uptravel is important to expedition travelers.

So...do you need the extra flex that FJBen has unleashed? It probably depends. I say "no" so far from the perspective of a rock crawler focused on climbing ability with this setup...it seems to me that the key is balance however you achieve it...and I've got it. But I can't see where it would hurt in most situations and could help in some (like insisting on driving dead straight through moguls ).

I would tend to say that larger tires makes a bigger difference than super flex. There is the added factor that larger tires makes all the rocks smaller. So easier to drive over. You don't have tires that fall into holes and can't climb ledges.

Oh, and 4.10's had the torque converter groaning like crazy on this first climb (it is as steep as it looks), but the hand throttle balanced them out on the other stuff. 88's would be nice offroad, but no reason onroad as OD off and PWR accomplish the same thing.
Nay

I think if you regear you might retract this statement

Here is a link to a video that shows how much the 80 stock link setup can be forced to work if one uses longer shocks and cut most of the body away
http://www.sleeoffroad.com/video/lslc_2006_2.wmv

 

[FJBen]

Look at all this good info er...I mean good observations on what one can do to their vehicle if they so choose to!

4.88's are definitely in my future, prolly the #1 mod on the list actually as now I've got to do a full birf job, so might as well do the gears as well. I could see how much the 4.88's would help. Just between driving my wife's stock 97 everyday and mine, there is quite a difference.

I believe the single best aspect I have gotten out of this whole thing so far is the Levelness/stability. For here on the trails I do in Colorado, (not much expedition for me) I'm very pleased with how it works. I don't think I"m in the "too much flex" category at the moment. The front is catching up and matching the rear and it makes a very stable ride.

If I go to longer shocks, I will probably have to retain the springs as they'll unseat in the front for sure as I've shown in the pics. right now they just become loose which doesn't have any negative pull, but I understand that and if it becomes an issue, i'll retain them.

The next trip I want to try the same obstacles with the hitch pin pulled, and then in to see how much difference it makes. i can tell you it was definitely rotating on those spots when the wheel was dropping.

 

[Tapage]

A pic of a 60 series on the same spot as my first pic, different angle, Gulp's (on ih8mud) pic.

and the levelness is AWESOME now...just to re-iterate!

this is a Faw**** nice shot ! and for sure a nice trail to test your suspension and flex Ben ..

I imagine my Tencha overthere ..

 

[LandCrusher'70]

there was another 80 series/thing/FJ40body on an 80 series

I'd like to see those pictures!

 

[Nay]

That is a pretty important point for some people. Rock crawling slow going stuff we tend to do the bump stops are not a huge issues, but personally I do not like it. This comes from wheeling the ShortBus where I have the maximum possible articulation with a stock link setup. Was your truck loaded or not? That is one of the reasons the bias to uptravel is important to expedition travelers.

I would tend to say that larger tires makes a bigger difference than super flex. There is the added factor that larger tires makes all the rocks smaller. So easier to drive over. You don't have tires that fall into holes and can't climb ledges.

I think if you regear you might retract this statement

I'm just trying to convince myself to not spend the regear right now . 35's need it.

I agree completely that the key on the 80 is to get to 35's, however you choose to do this. 35's are where your tire size is balanced to vehicle size....not only do the rocks get smaller, the rig itself feels smaller.

Expedition builds would do well to increase their lift over my setup. If I had a tire carrier/hi-lift hanging off the back with 300 lbs of gear in the cargo area I'd be begging for up travel. Key is to understand what you are building and why...and then optimize for your needs.

Nay

 

[FJBen]

Key is to understand what you are building and why...and then optimize for your needs.

Nay

how very true this rings!!! many ways to go about getting on 35's if that's your goal. It's not cut & dried for each setup. No point in extra flex/more sway if you are only expedition. This post is just about options.