Rod Knock on rebuilt 2H engine

[cruisermatt]

I wouldn’t be checking clearances on bearings that knocked. Once it knocks it’s toast. What do the crank journals look like now? It probably needs to come out.

 

[FJBen]

@NeverGiveUpYota correct micrometer would be the correct tool to use. I kept saying calipers.
Either way at this point I would pull the crank and get it checked right

I agree with @cruisermatt you can’t plastigauge worn out bearings, won’t tell you what you need.

As for sleeves or not it’s still possible it originally had them. Engines Australia told me a multiple times about the only cam bearings for my engine according to the year, market (Aussie) and block number. Turns out they were wrong as the 14b were the ones that fit for whatever reason. so I let them know to tell people In case they run into the same issue as me.

 

[SteveH]

If you did not drive the vehicle for long with loud knocking, the crank may be salvageable. But, it doesn't take much to tear things up. And finding the root cause of why the engine starting knocking is paramount, lest you fix it and end up with the same problem again.

To the OP - you might find a book (or good web site) on engine rebuilding, and read it cover-to-cover. It's not rocket science, and before you approach a machine shop, you must know what they are proposing to do and why. Otherwise, you are at their mercy, and some shops are not skilled or ethical.

 

[AdamRonaldson]

Clear

Do you have this problem for every connecting rod or just one? did your mechanic check the bearing clearances during assembly?

Clearly he did NOT to my horror this morning

 

[AdamRonaldson]

So...sleeves aren’t necessarily a bandaid.
a chunk of Toyota’s diesels came with them Factory. Lots of pluses on sleeves. You can replace scored cylinder walls without having to overbore. Oversized sleeves exist as well.

the 2H came with and without sleeves.
according to @lostmarbles
Nov 1984 was the change from sleeved to sleeveless for the 2H I believe. (Independent of country and independent of application)

depending on the market of the truck, year and if that’s the original engine. Might be worth talking to the mechanic to see if it had sleeves or not when he tore it down.

You can do a full rebuild with all new oem spec parts and put sleeves in. Usually that’s because it’s been too far bored, or some damage has occurred that can’t bore out.

I would also see if he did grind the crank any. If he ground the crank and used standard spec bearings, that might explain it. Crank grinding/polishing and sizing right bearings is very standard stuff...but mistakes sometimes happen.

see if you can get a digital caliper on crank. That will tell all.
Do you have the boxes or part numbers for the bearings?

Hi FJBen, I think the image says it all, Standard are the ones mechanic fitted and 0.25 the old ones removed before build. So mad right now should have been with him every step of the way, just after quick money, such an avoidable school boy error! Wish the previous owner was honest about the history of this engine too. part of me is pleased to have found the problem. My plastiguage arrives this week so will be good to see what results I get.
I'm also concerned about slight shake in the piston very slight but if done vigorously a little tap can be heard! So obviously the piston skirt is touching the liner when shaken. All that even after testing old rod bearings just to try and rule out that as a cause. Really surprised as this was the part of the engine I was most confident about. The sleeves still have evidence of honing so not worn down thats for sure. Everything to do with the piston and liners was done professionally and I watched it being done all the way through. All new parts, all standard spec

 

[FJBen]

Hi FJBen, I think the image says it all, Standard are the ones mechanic fitted and 0.25 the old ones removed before build. So mad right now should have been with him every step of the way, just after quick money, such an avoidable school boy error! Wish the previous owner was honest about the history of this engine too. part of me is pleased to have found the problem. My plastiguage arrives this week so will be good to see what results I get.
I'm also concerned about slight shake in the piston very slight but if done vigorously a little tap can be heard! So obviously the piston skirt is touching the liner when shaken. All that even after testing old rod bearings just to try and rule out that as a cause. Really surprised as this was the part of the engine I was most confident about. The sleeves still have evidence of honing so not worn down thats for sure. Everything to do with the piston and liners was done professionally and I watched it being done all the way through. All new parts, all standard spec

View attachment 2164187

Bummer.
that would explain a lot, but then open up a lot of questions for me personally about anything that mechanic did. Could have been a simple error, but that’s machine shop 101. I would definitely be asking him to refund some money or make it right with you watching. My machinist showed me all clearances and everything without asking.
I would now make sure the crank journals look good.
As for the piston noise, there should be some movement in there, but not a ton. This is all setup on the bore and piston clearance. The only way to accurately check this is...you got it, pull a piston, measure and then measure the bore with a bore gauge. Does the piston move in all directions or just side to side?

have you ordered new crank bearings yet?

 

[NeverGiveUpYota]

That really stinks. Lesson learned. Do your own work. I’d rather be pissed at me than pissed at someone else.

 

[AdamRonaldson]

Bummer.
that would explain a lot, but then open up a lot of questions for me personally about anything that mechanic did. Could have been a simple error, but that’s machine shop 101. I would definitely be asking him to refund some money or make it right with you watching. My machinist showed me all clearances and everything without asking.
I would now make sure the crank journals look good.
As for the piston noise, there should be some movement in there, but not a ton. This is all setup on the bore and piston clearance. The only way to accurately check this is...you got it, pull a piston, measure and then measure the bore with a bore gauge. Does the piston move in all directions or just side to side?

have you ordered new crank bearings yet?

Thanks for the tips. Will see what to do with Mechanic. Taking the crankshaft off tomorrow Will the correct conrod bearings stop the conrod movement across crankshaft journals, front and back
There is some little movement on piston all directions. Some light vertical lines nothing that can be felt only visual in the sleeves. See photo
is this normal? Will pull a piston tomorrow.

Haven't ordered bearings yet wanted to be sure first

 

[NeverGiveUpYota]

Doesn’t look gouged. The one w/ the wider scrapes is odd. If you pull one, pull that one just to check the rings and how they’re positioned around the diameter. The con rod caps will have some side to side movement. Correct sized bearings will snug up the fit tho as I said they should have some side to side play. The pistons tho should be pretty snug. I just installed 4 of mine a few weeks back w/ new rings in the freshly bored and honed cylinders and they are very tight.

 

[FJBen]

Thanks for the tips. Will see what to do with Mechanic. Taking the crankshaft off tomorrow Will the correct conrod bearings stop the conrod movement across crankshaft journals, front and back
There is some little movement on piston all directions. Some light vertical lines nothing that can be felt only visual in the sleeves. See photo
is this normal? Will pull a piston tomorrow.

Haven't ordered bearings yet wanted to be sure first

View attachment 2164458

View attachment 2164459

how many miles on the rebuild?
The main thing is if you can feel ridges or not with you’re fingernail.
however, I’ve seen high mileage motors without marks like this on the cylinder walls. My guess is that if you pull a piston, it will have marks as well.
usually due to improper piston tolerances, or debris in the cylinder walls or too hot. Could also be piston rings lined up wrong, badly installed wrist pins/burrs on parts?
Although in your case we already know the incorrect crank bearings were used so would that would cause for issues on the cylinder walls? not sure.

If it were me, I’d pull the pistons of the worst cylinders and have a look.

 

[AdamRonaldson]

Doesn’t look gouged. The one w/ the wider scrapes is odd. If you pull one, pull that one just to check the rings and how they’re positioned around the diameter. The con rod caps will have some side to side movement. Correct sized bearings will snug up the fit tho as I said they should have some side to side play. The pistons tho should be pretty snug. I just installed 4 of mine a few weeks back w/ new rings in the freshly bored and honed cylinders and they are very tight.

Hi, hope those photos are good enough. Number 2 is the piston with the wider scrapes and the only cylinder with a visible "scratch" you can barely feel with finger nail. I'll have to wait till after Christmas to get the bore diameters checked hoping if they're ok I can lightly hone? I also have a set of new rings so that's also an option. Those vertical lines a re really worrying me though. I guess I wait for the verdict on bore diameter.

 

[AdamRonaldson]

Doesn’t look gouged. The one w/ the wider scrapes is odd. If you pull one, pull that one just to check the rings and how they’re positioned around the diameter. The con rod caps will have some side to side movement. Correct sized bearings will snug up the fit tho as I said they should have some side to side play. The pistons tho should be pretty snug. I just installed 4 of mine a few weeks back w/ new rings in the freshly bored and honed cylinders and they are very tight.

Hi Yota some photos of the pistons I pulled hope they're good enough. The one with the wider scrapes is number 2. It has a horizontal scrape on one side I'd say about and inch and a half not all the way round that can just about feel with fingernail. The other ones are fine with the vertical scrapes
as shown in previous images that can only tell visually otherwise smooth.
I don't know if a quick light hone can overcome this and add new rings that I have already and fit back.
Will check internal liner diameter to see if they meet parameters after Christmas

 

[AdamRonaldson]

Some images of crackshaft journals. Clearly need to be polished im concerned if this is a crankshaft worth going ahead with seeing as it was already at 0.25 which is the maximum I've seen in the repair manual. I suppose just wait till I can pick up plastiguage to confirm.

 

[NeverGiveUpYota]

@AdamRonaldson that crank is concerning.
Way back before finding I had broken pistons I had added the head after it was rebuilt. I was driving and smelled burned oil bad. My gauge showed no change. Regardless my gut knew something wasn’t right so I pulled my oil pan which lead me to find I had a partially spun cam bearing. When I pulledxmy cam shaft it did have some scratches. A mechanic here looked at it and handed me a piece of emory cloth saying ‘just smooth it out and it’ll be fine.’
Cam you feel those scratches w/ your nail?

 

[NeverGiveUpYota]

Maybe someone else can verify that oiler ring too. Mine is much different. Maybe it’s a brand thing. Maybe it’s a diesel thing. I attached a pic of mine, I think you can zoom in to see how mine is different. Mine are ITM brand.

 

[NeverGiveUpYota]

Zooming in the on journals... I wonder if that mechanic chamfered out the oil holes and that’s why you have those 1/4” (guessing) wide shadow looking scratches/marks. There’s a thread that JimC started How not to build the 2F and he found someone had done that. I believe it had similar marks. Unless it’s simply just crud, I hope. See if that will wipe off.
Sucks man, you’ve got your work cut out for you.

 

[NeverGiveUpYota]

plastiguage to confirm

Plastigage isn’t going to confirm if your journals alone are too ground to be used. It is used to confirm that between the bearings and the journals the clearance is to spec. You would need a micrometer to measure the actual journals.

 

[ceylonfj40nut]

If it helps you any, my 14 year old son @Cowboy45 is doing a 2H rebuild. He summarized some of the steps. Start at the end of the thread and skip to engine sections. Hope it helps. I love the 2H engines. Have quite a few.

pre 1984 engines came sleeved. If you are replacing sleeves, make sure you follow the factory service manual tolerances for the limit the sleeve protrudes above the block. If not headgasket will not seat well. You also need a pre-1984 headgasket. Not all 2H headgaskets are the same. Need to specify yours is pre-1984. Use OEM headgasket where possible. Same thing with precups. After installing new ones, have machine shop deck the head to the same level. If precups protrude too much, your headgasket will not seal and may have the precups fail prematurely.

Hope you can grind your crank down and reuse. These are hard to come by.

@NeverGiveUpYota, the diesel oil ring on the pistons are different.

Many Toyota forklifts came with 2H engines. Toyota Forklift dealers usually stock 2H parts.

Best of luck.

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