Right tool for the job - a discussion of rig design and usage (1 Viewer)

[smritte]

I'm going to throw this out here because I didn't see it if it was mentioned.

Motor swaps. I have done more than a dozen swaps in either my vehicles or my friends vehicles. The first thing no-one seems to realize is, you now have a Frankenstein. Very few people will touch it if it has a drivability issue. The reason is, if they have an issue diagnosing it, where is the manual?
The vehicle owner will say, the motor is out of a ..... truck but the throttle body is from....truck, the PCM has this guys custom software so my trans from a Camaro will work. My mechanic friend pieced the factory wire loom for me so I still have the OEM loom. We just had to use a custom module so it would talk to my 80. There you go, it should be simple. OH... I used Auto Zone (gutter cheap parts) for some of the coils when my used ones had issues. OH...I almost forgot, this issue pops up randomly so you probably wont experience it. Remember, if you spend 30 hours trying to diagnose it and don't find the issue, I don't have to pay you.

Most of my swaps have been computerized engines and all of them were CA emissions legal. These are things I tell people up front when we discuss swapping engines.
When someone calls me with an issue, the first thing's I ask are, who did the swap, who made the wire loom and who did the custom software. I have found poorly built wire looms, software issues and interference from things that shouldn't have been tied together in the loom. Most of these popped up after more than a year of "no problems driving". None of these were ones I built.

Most techs don't know how to test things properly. They pull a code and throw a part at it. If that doesn't fix it, they throw more at it. Some diagnostics require a lab scope. Find someone who is good with these let alone owns one. In a normal vehicle, there are quite a number of parameters to test on a vehicle. In a swap you just added in a whole bunch more. If the vehicle owner has "fixed" something with an inferior part, add that into the mix.

If you understand diagnostics, lucky at throwing parts at a problem or have someone real good at these things, go for it.

I do know there are several people here who have successful swaps. You also read about the guys doing it and running into issues. I am going to be biased against them mainly because I have seen so many weird ghost issues over the years caused by the things I mentioned. Some of which were done by "professionals".

If you have it done for you, step up and pay a shop who specializes in engine swaps into an 80. I'm not happy with the power my 80 has and keep thinking about an LS with a 6 speed auto. I'm sure I can do it properly for around 20k. Yea, less if I don't rebuild the motor/trans and cheap out on a few other things. Why do that just to have to keep "fixing" worn out parts.

 

[Wrencher93]

I'm going to throw this out here because I didn't see it if it was mentioned.

Motor swaps. I have done more than a dozen swaps in either my vehicles or my friends vehicles. The first thing no-one seems to realize is, you now have a Frankenstein. Very few people will touch it if it has a drivability issue. The reason is, if they have an issue diagnosing it, where is the manual?
The vehicle owner will say, the motor is out of a ..... truck but the throttle body is from....truck, the PCM has this guys custom software so my trans from a Camaro will work. My mechanic friend pieced the factory wire loom for me so I still have the OEM loom. We just had to use a custom module so it would talk to my 80. There you go, it should be simple. OH... I used Auto Zone (gutter cheap parts) for some of the coils when my used ones had issues. OH...I almost forgot, this issue pops up randomly so you probably wont experience it. Remember, if you spend 30 hours trying to diagnose it and don't find the issue, I don't have to pay you.

Most of my swaps have been computerized engines and all of them were CA emissions legal. These are things I tell people up front when we discuss swapping engines.
When someone calls me with an issue, the first thing's I ask are, who did the swap, who made the wire loom and who did the custom software. I have found poorly built wire looms, software issues and interference from things that shouldn't have been tied together in the loom. Most of these popped up after more than a year of "no problems driving". None of these were ones I built.

Most techs don't know how to test things properly. They pull a code and throw a part at it. If that doesn't fix it, they throw more at it. Some diagnostics require a lab scope. Find someone who is good with these let alone owns one. In a normal vehicle, there are quite a number of parameters to test on a vehicle. In a swap you just added in a whole bunch more. If the vehicle owner has "fixed" something with an inferior part, add that into the mix.

If you understand diagnostics, lucky at throwing parts at a problem or have someone real good at these things, go for it.

I do know there are several people here who have successful swaps. You also read about the guys doing it and running into issues. I am going to be biased against them mainly because I have seen so many weird ghost issues over the years caused by the things I mentioned. Some of which were done by "professionals".

If you have it done for you, step up and pay a shop who specializes in engine swaps into an 80. I'm not happy with the power my 80 has and keep thinking about an LS with a 6 speed auto. I'm sure I can do it properly for around 20k. Yea, less if I don't rebuild the motor/trans and cheap out on a few other things. Why do that just to have to keep "fixing" worn out parts.

Thanks for the realistic perspective. It is appreciated. I never thought an engine swap would be easy but there is a lot I don't know and I appreciate those of you who have that experience taking the time to share it.

 

[desmocruiser]

Plenty of good advice, good news as many have pointed out you can build an 80 into a great dependable off road vehicle with a good lift and general maintenance still keep good road manners for the trips to and from!

Here is a little inspiration.
Catching some air in the Swell outside of Moab, sorry for the picture I didn’t have Digital copy handy.

Same Truck, same area, different year with the family and my Bride driving!

 

[Wrencher93]

The more we talk about this, the more a rebuild and a used engine to build as a spare sounds appealing.

 

[Wrencher93]

Plenty of good advice, good news as many have pointed out you can build an 80 into a great dependable off road vehicle with a good lift and general maintenance still keep good road manners for the trips to and from!

Here is a little inspiration.
Catching some air in the Swell outside of Moab, sorry for the picture I didn’t have Digital copy handy.
View attachment 2462369Same Truck, same area, different year with the family and my Bride driving!

View attachment 2462374

View attachment 2462372

I like your box set up on the roof rack. Alu-box?

 

[desmocruiser]

Yes, Really helpful because they seal out the dust and are reasonably light.

The larger one across the back is full of sleeping bags etc., The smaller front has a small camp stove and camp cooking items.

The center section is full of wolf pack boxes with light trail spares, belts, hoses, UV joints and a few other small bits. I have sometimes left them at camp or put them in the back of the rig if I don't need that area for sleeping.

The next mod will be the LRA tank and removal of the Jerry cans on the top (empty most of the time unless I know I will need them).

I built it 13 or so years ago and continue to jettison anything I don't need, there will be a significant purge as a Fall/Winter project as the kids have gotten bigger and are demanding more room!!!

 

[NLXTACY]

Here’s my input...

How you travel and how you off-road will change as both you and your kid(s) get older.

Our first 80 was our LX450 that we got new. It was TEN years before the very first thing was “modified”. Yes, ten years. We took it all over the country and it performed very well despite some trails we should have bypassed given it was 100% stock. This truck is a daily driver now with 390k miles and has been modified in nearly every imaginable way possible including a complete engine rebuild and Supercharger. Twenty three years later and this truck gets it done but hasn’t been without its headaches over the years. It’s the rig I take if I’m going to see trails and rocks and brush. It’s trustworthy and I know every inch of it. But it if were to redo it I’d build it very differently.

Which brings me to the turbo truck. Now I’m not actually going to advocate for the turbo. But I’m also definitely not going to advocate for the Cummins or any other swap. The turbo truck serves its purpose. It gets up long grades fast, it tows effortlessly and it looks good driving on the highway. But for all the miles put on either vehicle it doesn’t “need” the power adders. You “want” them. This is where the distinction is made: what do you want vs what do you need?

What do I need? I need a truck that my nearly 50 year old body will be comfortable driving very long distances to get to the areas I want to camp and explore. It’s why I don’t own a 40 anymore. I can’t do it to my body anymore and my wife and I prefer comfort. How did we take care of the “comfort” part of our trips? We bought a 100. Hate to admit it but it’s a far more comfortable ride.

Build it for its intended use not for today but for tomorrow and you’ll have less regrets. Prioritize maintenance over power adders.

 

[Wrencher93]

Yes, Really helpful because they seal out the dust and are reasonably light.

The larger one across the back is full of sleeping bags etc., The smaller front has a small camp stove and camp cooking items.

The center section is full of wolf pack boxes with light trail spares, belts, hoses, UV joints and a few other small bits. I have sometimes left them at camp or put them in the back of the rig if I don't need that area for sleeping.

The next mod will be the LRA tank and removal of the Jerry cans on the top (empty most of the time unless I know I will need them).

I built it 13 or so years ago and continue to jettison anything I don't need, there will be a significant purge as a Fall/Winter project as the kids have gotten bigger and are demanding more room!!!

I have a Frontrunner rack and I've been considering getting some alu-boxes or Zarges boxes to go on the rack. I want them to be solidly held in place but easily removable. I know Eezi-awn has a quick mount system so I may try to adapt that or make my own mounting plates.

 

[Wrencher93]

Here’s my input...

How you travel and how you off-road will change as both you and your kid(s) get older.

Our first 80 was our LX450 that we got new. It was TEN years before the very first thing was “modified”. Yes, ten years. We took it all over the country and it performed very well despite some trails we should have bypassed given it was 100% stock. This truck is a daily driver now with 390k miles and has been modified in nearly every imaginable way possible including a complete engine rebuild and Supercharger. Twenty three years later and this truck gets it done but hasn’t been without its headaches over the years. It’s the rig I take if I’m going to see trails and rocks and brush. It’s trustworthy and I know every inch of it. But it if were to redo it I’d build it very differently.

Which brings me to the turbo truck. Now I’m not actually going to advocate for the turbo. But I’m also definitely not going to advocate for the Cummins or any other swap. The turbo truck serves its purpose. It gets up long grades fast, it tows effortlessly and it looks good driving on the highway. But for all the miles put on either vehicle it doesn’t “need” the power adders. You “want” them. This is where the distinction is made: what do you want vs what do you need?

What do I need? I need a truck that my nearly 50 year old body will be comfortable driving very long distances to get to the areas I want to camp and explore. It’s why I don’t own a 40 anymore. I can’t do it to my body anymore and my wife and I prefer comfort. How did we take care of the “comfort” part of our trips? We bought a 100. Hate to admit it but it’s a far more comfortable ride.

Build it for its intended use not for today but for tomorrow and you’ll have less regrets. Prioritize maintenance over power adders.

Two things:
1.) Thank you for a genuine reply and yet another valuable perspective on how these vehicles perform with and without modification.
2.) Thank you for not pushing your product even though the door was wide open in this case. I have a lot of respect for that.

 

[JeepinPete]

I've only been an 80 owner for seven years, but I have been wheeling all my life. My first car memory was my dad's '74 Jeep Cherokee. Lot's of good memories from that one. I've owned a bunch of jeeps over the years, and modified a bunch of them.

So why do I own an 80? Seven years ago when I bought my first one, I was burnt out on working on my jeep project. Two young kids, a job with ever more responsibility, an old home to keep up with, etc, found me with little to no time, and even less energy to wrench. An 80 is literally a turn key wheeler, put on some larger tires, engage the lockers, and go more places than a truck this size has the right to go.

My last jeep was a '79 Cherokee. I did a LS swap in it. Well over 100 hours to do it myself. Spent the next year debugging things. In the end it was more reliable than the ancient AMC V8 that was in it, and had twice the power. Made sense in an old vehicle like it.

An 80 has a modern fuel injected engine, known for reliability and frankly ridiculously long life. It will take you anywhere you want to go. It won't do it economically, and you will have to wind it out a bit to make some power. The engine won't care.

I'm on my second 80 now. Rust took down the first one. This time around I have gone through the engine bay and replaced every hose. Nearly got every engine gasket replaced, so the oil leaks are nearly gone. All OEM parts (the quality difference is real). IOW, doing the maintenance that was neglected.

I would recommend tweaking your truck from where it is at, mainly to improve the on road handling. Take care of any overdue maintenance. Then enjoy the truck. If you every get to the point where it won't take you where you really want to go, then worry about "upgrades".

 

[Wrencher93]

I've only been an 80 owner for seven years, but I have been wheeling all my life. My first car memory was my dad's '74 Jeep Cherokee. Lot's of good memories from that one. I've owned a bunch of jeeps over the years, and modified a bunch of them.

So why do I own an 80? Seven years ago when I bought my first one, I was burnt out on working on my jeep project. Two young kids, a job with ever more responsibility, an old home to keep up with, etc, found me with little to no time, and even less energy to wrench. An 80 is literally a turn key wheeler, put on some larger tires, engage the lockers, and go more places than a truck this size has the right to go.

My last jeep was a '79 Cherokee. I did a LS swap in it. Well over 100 hours to do it myself. Spent the next year debugging things. In the end it was more reliable than the ancient AMC V8 that was in it, and had twice the power. Made sense in an old vehicle like it.

An 80 has a modern fuel injected engine, known for reliability and frankly ridiculously long life. It will take you anywhere you want to go. It won't do it economically, and you will have to wind it out a bit to make some power. The engine won't care.

I'm on my second 80 now. Rust took down the first one. This time around I have gone through the engine bay and replaced every hose. Nearly got every engine gasket replaced, so the oil leaks are nearly gone. All OEM parts (the quality difference is real). IOW, doing the maintenance that was neglected.

I would recommend tweaking your truck from where it is at, mainly to improve the on road handling. Take care of any overdue maintenance. Then enjoy the truck. If you every get to the point where it won't take you where you really want to go, then worry about "upgrades".

This seems to be the chorus of the song I am hearing - and I'm totally OK with that. We all need people to talk us out of things at some point. Right now I am doing exactly what you spoke of: maintenance and trying to dial the truck in for on-road manners. It's fine offroad, doesn't really need anything at the moment. It's the little details that make driving it on a regular basis either a pleasure or a pain. Trying to get on the pleasure side of that line.

I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread but my long term plan is to build a trailer as my family grows. That will allow flexibility in what gets packed where and how much weight the 80 needs to drag around when I'm not playing in the dirt. This thread is meant to collect and preserve ideas about what options are out there, what an engine swap really means if I should pursue it, what the pros and cons are of keeping the 1fz, and other similar topics.

 

[ChaseTruck]

...my long term plan is to build a trailer as my family grows....

How about getting a second truck instead? A GX perhaps, for the 'on-the-road' family road trips?

 

[Wrencher93]

How about getting a second truck instead? A GX perhaps, for the 'on-the-road' family road trips?

I'd love to but super long drives when the kiddos aren't able to help are made easier when you can switch drivers. Still though...second truck is tempting

 

[White Stripe]

Some are scared about paying a cruiser shop 30k to do a swap. Thats with a rebuilt trans and a used LS motor. But in my opinion 30k is not a ton of money to spend on a rig such as an 80 series. At the toyota dealer near me they sell many trd pro 4runners/Tacomas. A TRD pro 4runner is 55k. Then you have taxes, registration, and new vehicle insurance costs. So at 30k your still far away from 55k. And you will have a 80 series, so it will retain its value. You can also save some money by pulling the 1fz yourself to save shop labor and sell it.

 

[SHREDwagon]

I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread but my long term plan is to build a trailer as my family grows. That will allow flexibility in what gets packed where and how much weight the 80 needs to drag around when I'm not playing in the dirt.

I tow a small M101 CND trailer and it's about as large as I would recommend. LC economy is abysmal.

 

[jbee]

I've read the first few pages to get up to speed. I think your answer is to have your 1FZ rebuilt by a good shop with an eye towards adding the Wits End turbo. I'm not suggesting they reduce the compression, but maybe beef up the internals and invest in a little more balancing (crank, rods, pistons) to make sure it's as good as it can be. I think the truck OTRAMM is working on (youtubes) has a rebuilt engine and they added the turbo.

For less downtime, maybe find a junk one locally (or on car-part.com) and have the rebuild started and then drop it in when it's ready. Your old one will be worth $1,000+.

You're obviously comfortable with any known issues of the 1FZ platform and by all accounts (including my own) Wit's End provides excellent service/support. I cannot think of a way to spend the money better.

I love the LS platform; they can be made to be reliable, fuel efficient, and last a long time. Plus I love the power. I have 2 of them now (113k miles and 194k miles). I have several friends that have 250k+ on them. They're easy to work on and parts are cheap. Plus everyone knows that the best 4x4 is a 2 wheel drive work truck!
You could buy a nice suburban or Tahoe or Denali for cheap and baseline it and drive it anywhere. It would be cheaper than a proper LS swapped 80 series. (Plus there are like 3,000 Chevy dealerships in the US). As ToolsRUs used to say; they sell Escalades with that motor already in them; go buy one!

I agree 100% with smritte.
When you build a Hybrid/Swapped (READ: Frankenstein) truck you introduce variables that can reduce reliability and serviceability. Even if the best shop builds it, there are going to be crossover issues between the chevy and toyota or toyota and dodge. I would be scared if the fuel, cooling and wiring systems were hybrids when I need the truck to be reliable.
However, the hybrid path will introduce 'adventure' into your family outings. It might be fun looking for a fuel line from a 2013 Silverado while broken down next to the Turkey Plant in Gibbon, Nebraska.
My friend drove 2 Land cruisers (80 series and 100 series) across russia and actually stopped at a toyota dealer there to get some parts. check out the video; couple of good shots of the 80 and 100 going flat-out across the plains.

Build something cool and drive it hard.

 

[thatcabledude]

I've read the first few pages to get up to speed. I think your answer is to have your 1FZ rebuilt by a good shop with an eye towards adding the Wits End turbo. I'm not suggesting they reduce the compression, but maybe beef up the internals and invest in a little more balancing (crank, rods, pistons) to make sure it's as good as it can be. I think the truck OTRAMM is working on (youtubes) has a rebuilt engine and they added the turbo.

For less downtime, maybe find a junk one locally (or on car-part.com) and have the rebuild started and then drop it in when it's ready. Your old one will be worth $1,000+.

You're obviously comfortable with any known issues of the 1FZ platform and by all accounts (including my own) Wit's End provides excellent service/support. I cannot think of a way to spend the money better.

I love the LS platform; they can be made to be reliable, fuel efficient, and last a long time. Plus I love the power. I have 2 of them now (113k miles and 194k miles). I have several friends that have 250k+ on them. They're easy to work on and parts are cheap. Plus everyone knows that the best 4x4 is a 2 wheel drive work truck!
You could buy a nice suburban or Tahoe or Denali for cheap and baseline it and drive it anywhere. It would be cheaper than a proper LS swapped 80 series. (Plus there are like 3,000 Chevy dealerships in the US). As ToolsRUs used to say; they sell Escalades with that motor already in them; go buy one!

I agree 100% with smritte.
When you build a Hybrid/Swapped (READ: Frankenstein) truck you introduce variables that can reduce reliability and serviceability. Even if the best shop builds it, there are going to be crossover issues between the chevy and toyota or toyota and dodge. I would be scared if the fuel, cooling and wiring systems were hybrids when I need the truck to be reliable.
However, the hybrid path will introduce 'adventure' into your family outings. It might be fun looking for a fuel line from a 2013 Silverado while broken down next to the Turkey Plant in Gibbon, Nebraska.
My friend drove 2 Land cruisers (80 series and 100 series) across russia and actually stopped at a toyota dealer there to get some parts. check out the video; couple of good shots of the 80 and 100 going flat-out across the plains.

Build something cool and drive it hard.

On my swap I used nothing that can’t be EASILY found at a regular auto parts store. That couldn’t be said if the factory 1fz was still under the hood. You could argue serviceability improved.

 

[Heckraiser]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I did read the OP's first handful of posts.

I would stick with the stock drivetrain. Rebuild if you wish, but a thorough refresh (not a rebuild) will likely be enough to get you to the level of dependability/peace of mind that you want. Then get 4.88 gears. If that doesn't satisfy, get the turbo. It is BY FAR the cheapest route and the least likely to turn your truck into a "somebody else's project" ad on craigslist.

I'm sure like you, I like to be able to pass someone on the highway if I want. I don't want to be the guy holding up traffic and if I'm cruising down a straight highway through the middle of nowhere, I want to go 80mph to get it over with more quickly. So I think I'm a good reference point for you.

I have dreamed about engine swaps and even owned a V8 fj62. I think a mostly stock truck is better. If you need a mechanic to look at it for any reason, they won't touch a swapped truck. I do most of my own maintenance, but occasionally I'm too busy and have to resort to a mechanic. Any swap pretty much eliminates that option. 6BT is a heavy beast and I think would drastically alter the feel and handling of the truck. I'm also not a fan of the noise. LS swap would cost a lot of money to do correctly (although would probably save weight compared to stock) and you still have the afore mentioned "no mechanic will touch it"
problem.

If you look at swap threads, most have the cool "engine setting in the engine bay" photo within a page or two. Then the thread drags on for another year as the poster sorts out how to get this gauge to work or how to fix that wiring issue, or why he's on his third driveshaft. Many just get abandoned and turn into the afore-mentioned "somebody else's project" craigslist ad.

 

[NMC_EXP]

I realize there is no single solution.

There are no perfect solutions. No matter what you do, at some level the end result is a compromise.

That goes along with the version of Murphy's Laws for engineering. One of them is Zymurgy's First Law of Evolving Systems Dynamics which states:

"Once you open a can of worms, the only way to recan them is to use a larger can."

 

[Pierce]

I originally bought my rig because it was a lifetime dream to own one. First and most importantly to me, it looked cool as hell (yep it’s my grocery getter. If my town had a mall or I liked people I’d probably be a mall crawler) Toyota reliable, capable and relatively rare. I have a company vehicle and a 3rd gen 4Runner as well so that if either is down for wrenching I have something to drive and visa versa for the 4Runner. The 80 is my 2nd or 3rd vehicle depending on what day it is. It’s a project. My off road time is usually at a family ranch and dirt roads.
I love the 80 because I get enjoyment out of, the build, restoration,maintenance and driving. The wrenching is therapeutic for me. It’s easy to diagnose problems, easy to work on and the base vehicle is very reliable. You add mods you add problems.
One thing I’ve learned over a short lifetime of 4x4 ownership and only 4 years of FZJ80 ownership is that I spend more time maintaining the problems that modifications create (supercharger, lift, armor, aux tank, gears) than working on the base vehicle.
I originally envisioned an armored rig on 285’s so I wouldn’t have to dive into supporting (but unnecessary) mods (meaning a slow as poo rig). The installation of a Icon lift changed that. The 3” lift was closer to 4” and the 285’s looked ridiculous and not proportionate. Enter...315’s, caster correction, gears, supercharger, driveline vibes, heat issues, supercharger rebuild, supporting supercharger mods... I’m actually not complaining, I still enjoy it.
All that rambling to say build what you want as you go but you’re probably going to be fine on a stock 80. If you rely on Mud for ideas you better be making big boy money because we will break you with our “ideas” and “opinions”.
Were I to do it again... after I bought the dream 80 I’d buy a used Porsche Carrera and stopped with ARB bumper, 2.5” lift, 285’s and Slee step sliders. As I sit now, tens of thousands of dollars later (including 80 purchase price) I would’ve saved a few thousand bucks.
Now I’m considering a custom intercooler build