Right tool for the job - a discussion of rig design and usage (1 Viewer)

[White Stripe]

Currently am married with a 1 year old son and a 70lb doberman mix. Probably have more kids in the future so the rig needs to be able to fit at least four people + dog and gear. I want a trailer for the gear eventually so no problem there. At that point the 80 would just need to haul the people and pets and have enough grunt to pull the trailer. By "Hard wheeling" I mean situations where armor and winches are warranted and you might not get out if you pick the wrong line. I don't plan to go rock-bashing with this thing but I'm also not a fan of being turned back by obstacles. Tough trails and very remote camping are on the "want to do" list.

A engine swap transforms the 80 into a do anything rig. Keep in mind when choosing a motor, torque is a more important consideration than hp. 6bt is noisier and tractorish. But will pull anything easily. It's also heavy so it will make the 80 feel heavier offroad. Fuel mileage will be great. A LS will pull a trailer as well but at increased rpm. It's a great smooth daily driver motor. I have a 5.3 in mine. I'm pulling trailers more than I anticipated though, so I'm putting in a bigger LS which is a very simple process once the initial swap is done. A LS is very easy to work on. Easier than a 1fz by far. Their is also the gm 8.1 motor which would drive nice and tow great as well. More cubes gives more off the line torque. I would consider a 1fz turbo also. But parts for the 1fz arent as easy to get at the local parts store.

 

[Wrencher93]

(f) Should satisfy most of your requirements. If the stock powertrain is worn out, rebuild it and enjoy. If you need more pulling power reduce tire height (and width) and save wear and tear on steering components in the process. Plus less rotating mass means marginal improvement in braking and acceleration.

Also a fair assessment. I will be forthcoming and tell everyone that I have wrestled with downsizing the tires because most of my current driving does not "require" them. However, I have decided that I don't like the look of a built, armored 80 on small tires so I doubt I will remove the 35's unless I also decide to remove some of the armor - unlikely

 

[Wrencher93]

A engine swap transforms the 80 into a do anything rig. Keep in mind when choosing a motor, torque is a more important consideration than hp. 6bt is noisier and tractorish. But will pull anything easily. It's also heavy so it will make the 80 feel heavier offroad. Fuel mileage will be great. A LS will pull a trailer as well but at increased rpm. It's a great smooth daily driver motor. I have a 5.3 in mine. I'm pulling trailers more than I anticipated though, so I'm putting in a bigger LS which is a very simple process once the initial swap is done. A LS is very easy to work on. Easier than a 1fz by far. Their is also the gm 8.1 motor which would drive nice and tow great as well. More cubes gives more off the line torque. I would consider a 1fz turbo also. But parts for the 1fz arent as easy to get at the local parts store.

Total transparency here: I squirm a little at the thought of putting a GM engine in a land cruiser. Now, that being said, I think that gut reaction has everything to do with cultural perception and very little to do with any real LS issues. It seems to me that there are many more people who drive GM/Chevrolet vehicles that trash them and, as a result, have all kinds of issues than there are Toyota owners with the same problems. That would initially lead one to be suspect of the brand when in reality it probably all comes down to the individual and how they treat their vehicle. Even land cruisers can't survive abusive ownership forever.

 

[Wrencher93]

The long and the short of it is I'm uneducated about the realities of an engine swap. I have read a fair amount on the subject on this forum but in my estimation I still lack the knowledge base to make an educated decision. That is one of several reasons for this thread. I'm not interested in a swap tomorrow, or even a year from now. I can't and even if I could I don't currently have the workspace. But...I might have both the money and the space a few years from now so I'm trying to get a better handle on where I want the truck to end up. If I'm going to stay with the 1fz long term then I will build the truck accordingly (gears, etc) but if I'm not then several of those mods would be wasted and end up costing me even more money to remove at a later date.

 

[Wrencher93]

Maybe this will help the discussion. In terms of how I want to use the vehicle, I want a tourer that is capable of defeating real obstacles (i.e. more than a gravel road). As such, it will get driven way more than just a dedicated wheeling truck. We're talking multiple hours at interstate speeds followed by dirt roads and then hopefully trails and remote areas that may require lockers, good ground clearance, and no small amount of testicular fortitude to get the vehicle and its passengers where they desire to go. As I see it, that eventuality will require a trailer equipped with a galley and sleeping accommodations (probably my RTT) being pulled over rough terrain by the 80 which needs to be capable of towing a few thousand pounds of said trailer AND carrying between 2 and 5 people. People are currently doing this kind of thing with the 1fz. It can be done. Gears are probably a must. A turbo sure sounds like it would help...but setting that up would look something like this:
6k for Wit's End turbo
2k for regear (maybe more depending on which gears and whether or not you to TC)
1500ish for a LRA fuel tank
And a crap ton of gas money

Alternative? Idk...maybe a cummins swap. Heavier, but that can be addressed with suspension. Better mileage and laughs at towing requirements. Solid and reliable with regular maintenance. Part availability is every bit as good if not better than 1fz for North America.

 

[White Stripe]

Total transparency here: I squirm a little at the thought of putting a GM engine in a land cruiser. Now, that being said, I think that gut reaction has everything to do with cultural perception and very little to do with any real LS issues. It seems to me that there are many more people who drive GM/Chevrolet vehicles that trash them and, as a result, have all kinds of issues than there are Toyota owners with the same problems. That would initially lead one to be suspect of the brand when in reality it probably all comes down to the individual and how they treat their vehicle. Even land cruisers can't survive abusive ownership forever.

Every manufacturer has good and bad products. The more complex LS motors with cylinder deactivation for fuel mileage can have more issues. But a LS is pretty easy to repair overall. I love mine. For your purposes though I wouldn't recommend doing a engine swap yourself no matter what engine you choose. I would find a shop that can do a swap that is well integrated and smooth do drive. A clunky swap isnt as much fun to drive unless it's a beater. It takes a lot of experience to do a smooth swap.

 

[Wrencher93]

@White Stripe Ok so since a good swap requires a lot of experience (and I suspect you're absolutely right about that) is keeping the 1fz long-term a reasonable goal? What I mean by that is do you consider it a good investment for the next 10 years given the fact that parts are already being discontinued for that engine? This is my primary concern. Having a sweet truck is only as good as your ability to keep it that way.

I know that may sound like a totally ignorant question. I know there are tons of people who still have 40's, and 60's and there are people with the 3FE in their 80. So clearly keeping the 1fz is possible - but is it a good choice from a user perspective? This 80 will not be parked in a barn and only brought out to polish the rims. It's going to be driven. It's going to be used. I will break things eventually. I've pondered the wisdom of buying a used 1fz and building it as a spare but I wasn't sure if I would spend more money doing that than just biting the bullet on a well thought out swap.

 

[baldilocks]

It looks like this. Paved roads, dirt roads, long roads, short roads, no roads, no problem...

 

[Wrencher93]

It looks like this. Paved roads, dirt roads, long roads, short roads, no roads, no problem...

View attachment 2461413View attachment 2461420View attachment 2461422View attachment 2461427View attachment 2461428

Mind talking about your build a little? Or giving us a link if you have a thread. I've seen your content around the forum but I don't recall reading a build thread.

 

[baldilocks]

There is nothing special about my 80. I accept the 1990’s horsepower and look to extract every bit of performance out of my Landcruiser by whatever means necessary whether that be through motherly patience or youthful exuberance.

Builds - Reconstruction after rollover - building The Champ 2.

I rolled my 94 and the body is done but mechanicals are fine. I want to pick up an 80 preferably one that's not operational so I have a foundation to build on with my parts. I prefer 94-earlier. I'm in CA so smog is an issue but I think that a newer model engine in and older cruiser would be...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[White Stripe]

@White Stripe Ok so since a good swap requires a lot of experience (and I suspect you're absolutely right about that) is keeping the 1fz long-term a reasonable goal? What I mean by that is do you consider it a good investment for the next 10 years given the fact that parts are already being discontinued for that engine? This is my primary concern. Having a sweet truck is only as good as your ability to keep it that way.

I know that may sound like a totally ignorant question. I know there are tons of people who still have 40's, and 60's and there are people with the 3FE in their 80. So clearly keeping the 1fz is possible - but is it a good choice from a user perspective? This 80 will not be parked in a barn and only brought out to polish the rims. It's going to be driven. It's going to be used. I will break things eventually. I've pondered the wisdom of buying a used 1fz and building it as a spare but I wasn't sure if I would spend more money doing that than just biting the bullet on a well thought out swap.

I'm sure major parts will still be available in 10 years. Will they be easy to get? You may have to wait a few days. It sounds to me like a swap is not within your reach right now. Many times life situations dictate what is a good investment or not. If you can't afford a swap, make the 1fz the best you can(turbo it if you can swing it) and enjoy some fun trips. The 1fz even without forced induction can pull a fairly large amount of weight and get you to your destination-it will just be in the slow lane while doing it.

 

[Wrencher93]

I agree that a swap is not within reach right now. That is exactly why I am asking these questions now rather than later. By the time I have the money/time for a swap I hope to already know where that money is going. I'm not trying to waste everyone's time - quite the opposite actually. That's why I said earlier that this is meant to be a discussion and that I realize there is no single solution. I appreciate your input and the input of the others who have taken the time to comment. It would seem that my best option is to keep the current drive train and make it work for my needs. I am OK with this solution if that is indeed the case. In fact, I will be very pleasantly surprised if I end up only needing a regear. I'm just trying to gain some perspective the only way I know how (without spending about 40k in bad decisions) - talking to people.

 

[Wrencher93]

There is nothing special about my 80. I accept the 1990’s horsepower and look to extract every bit of performance out of my Landcruiser by whatever means necessary whether that be through motherly patience or youthful exuberance.

Builds - Reconstruction after rollover - building The Champ 2.

I rolled my 94 and the body is done but mechanicals are fine. I want to pick up an 80 preferably one that's not operational so I have a foundation to build on with my parts. I prefer 94-earlier. I'm in CA so smog is an issue but I think that a newer model engine in and older cruiser would be...

forum.ih8mud.com

Ok so I just read through your build thread. Lots of good stuff in there. I came away with two questions though. I'm sure you've heard both before but I'm going to ask anyway.
1.) What gears are you running?
2.) Do you think the jump to 37's was worth it? Everything I've read says 37's require more modification to make the truck drive right when compared to 35's. For example, I don't think you can fully stuff a 37 where a 35 will fit inside the wheel wells (yes I know you trimmed yours but how much The, etc). The 37's look awesome but I'm wondering if I'm ready for that rodeo - even if I had the money. Interested to hear your thoughts.

 

[baldilocks]

Ok so I just read through your build thread. Lots of good stuff in there. I came away with two questions though. I'm sure you've heard both before but I'm going to ask anyway.
1.) What gears are you running?
2.) Do you think the jump to 37's was worth it? Everything I've read says 37's require more modification to make the truck drive right when compared to 35's. For example, I don't think you can fully stuff a 37 where a 35 will fit inside the wheel wells (yes I know you trimmed yours but how much The, etc). The 37's look awesome but I'm wondering if I'm ready for that rodeo - even if I had the money. Interested to hear your thoughts.

Thank you for the interest. The axles came from the green 80 that I rolled and started my thread with and were already packed with 4.88’s and ARB’s when I bought that truck. Yes, 37’s were a game changer. Not only do bigger tires provide greater ground clearance but they also possess a larger footprint and a larger radius which rolls over changes in terrain contour more easily. I lived 100 miles from Rubicon for 28 years and have been on that trail too many times to recall and that’s where I did all of my wheeling as the 80 series build up progressed.

With closed fenders and a full bodied vehicle we are limited as to tire size unless we do a lot of body reorganization which I am not yet inclined to do so ground clearance must come from a balanced combination of tire size increase and suspension lift. Obviously ground clearance at the diff will be affected by tire size only. The ideal recipe would be 44” tires and zero lift for a low CG but that’s not feasible unless we chop the body. I did minor trimming at the aft lower portion of each wheel well and could have probably skipped that had I bought the longer Delta arms at the same time the 37’s went on. The only reason I trimmed the rear of the rear fenders a little was because I lengthened the rear control arms but that could also be skipped.

My suspension lift is right at 5” and taller than many 80 owners want to go but that 5” is the reason I haven’t butchered my front fenders and also why I enjoy about 5” of up travel front and rear. You mentioned not being able to “fully” stuff a 37 without cutting fenders. What is fully stuffed? My tires stuff as far as my bump stops allow which does leave the axle farther from the frame than when I ran 315’s but I still enjoy the same amount of travel it’s just been moved down some to accommodate the additional ground clearance. Actual, I have more over all travel now because of the extra long front shocks. That 5” of lift is why I was forced to run DC shafts at both ends to eliminated a rear driveline vibe that I couldn’t otherwise. DC shafts are not cheap.

You can run 37’s on a 3” lift but up travel will suffer unless you are willing and able to massage those fenders a bit. Tradeoffs and compromises is the name of the game. You can read some threads where very talented people have done fantastic jobs of cutting/gutting there fender wells and then welding in new wells to fit big tires and still get that up travel. We all learn to drive what we created.

Back to the Rubicon; my first set up on the green machine was 850j/863 and 315’s. It did amazingly well for what it was but I did bang into rocks and get hung up on the bottom side more often. The rig I had prior to the green 80 was a Ramcharger on 39.5’s with tons and atlas case. The green 80 was incapable and slower through rough stuff by comparison. Enter 37’s and more lift on my current 80; I got home from the maiden voyage and told my wife the 80 was on par with the old Ramcharger but with more class and an even smoother ride. I can make it from Loon Lake to Rubicon Springs in under 4.5 hours now. It’s hard to believe what a couple inches of ground clearance will do. I think this has to do with how the average rig today is set up and how that affects trail conditions. I also think that the tire you choose makes a difference. Soft compounds stick better but wear out faster.

I can’t remember if I included in my thread the swap from the rear Slee heavy progressive coils to the Dobinson 3” tapered coils to match the front tapered. I like the green springs but a recent trip over Dusy Ershim trail where I was heavily loaded has me thinking the Slee coils will go back in for such events because they carry loads very well and ride well unloaded but lifted my 80 more than I cared for most of the time. I will say though that the Dobinson’s are plush, they just don’t have quite the load carrying capacity of the Slee’s 21mm diameter spring material, but are serving us well most of the time.

Nothing magic going on here just a willingness to throw money at a car and a desire to experiment.

 

[Wrencher93]

Thank you for the interest. The axles came from the green 80 that I rolled and started my thread with and were already packed with 4.88’s and ARB’s when I bought that truck. Yes, 37’s were a game changer. Not only do bigger tire provide greater ground clearance but they also possess a larger footprint and a larger radius which rolls over changes in terrain contour more easily. I lived 100 miles from Rubicon for 28 years and have been on that trail too many times to recall and that’s where I did all of my wheeling as the 80 series build up progressed.

With closed fenders and a full bodied vehicle we are limited as to tire size unless we do a lot of body reorganization which I am not yet inclined to do so ground clearance must come from a balanced combination of tire size increase and suspension lift. Obviously ground clearance at the diff will be affected by tire size only. The ideal recipe would be 44” tires and zero lift for a low CG but that’s not feasible unless we chop the body. I did minor trimming at the aft lower portion of each wheel well and could have probably skipped that had I bought the longer Delta arms at the same time the 37’s went on. The only reason I trimmed the rear of the rear fenders a little was because I lengthened the rear control arms but that could also be skipped.

My suspension lift is right at 5” and taller than many 80 owners want to go but that 5” is the reason I haven’t butchered my front fenders and also why I enjoy over about 5” of up travel front and rear. You mentioned not being able to “fully” stuff a 37 without cutting fenders. What is fully stuffed? My tires stuff as far as my bump stops allow which does leave the axle farther from the frame than when I ran 315’s but I still enjoy the same amount of travel it’s just been moved down some to accommodate the additional ground clearance. Actual, I have more over all travel now because of the extra long front shocks. That 5” of lift is why I was forced to run DC shafts at both ends to eliminated a rear driveline vibe that I couldn’t otherwise. DC shafts are not cheap.

You can run 37’s on a 3” lift but up travel will suffer unless you are willing and able to massage those fenders a bit. Tradeoffs and compromises is the name of the game. You can read some threads where very talented people have done fantastic jobs of cutting/gutting there fender wells and then welding in new wells to fit big tires and still get that up travel. We all learn to drive what we created.

Back to the Rubicon; my first set up on the green machine was 850j/863 And 315’s. It did amazingly well for what it was but I did bang into rocks and get hung up on the bottom side more often. The rig I had prior to the green 80 was a Ramcharger on 39.5’s with tons and atlas case. The green 80 was incapable and slower through rough stuff by comparison. Enter 37’s and more lift on my current 80; I got home from the maiden voyage and told my wife the 80 was on par with the old Ramcharger but with more class and an even smoother ride. I can make it from Loon Lake to Rubicon Springs in under 4.5 hours now. It’s hard to believe what a couple inches of ground clearance will do. I think this has to do with how the average rig today is set up and how that affects trail conditions. I also think that the tire you choose makes a difference. Soft compounds stick better but wear out faster.

I can’t remember if I included in my thread the swap from the Slee heavy progressive coils to the Dobinson 3” tapered coils to match the front tapered. I like the green springs but a recent trip over Dusy Ershim trail where I was heavily loaded has me thinking the Slee coils will go back in for such events because they carry loads very well as well ride well unloaded but lifted my 80 more than I cared for most of the time. I will say though that the Dobinson’s are plush, they just don’t have quite the load carrying capacity of the Slee’s 21mm diameter spring material, but are serving us well most of the time.

Nothing magic going on here just a willingness to throw money at a car and a desire to experiment.

Thank you for taking the time to write a real reply. That, in my opinion, is what makes this forum so useful. I hear what you're saying about the 37's. Great option if you're willing to go down that road. I am, my wallet is not. Not yet. My 80 has 315's right now and my only issues thus far have not involved ground clearance so I think I'll use the truck some more before I settle on what gears I want. I was pretty set on getting 4.88's until this thread and re-reading yours. Curse your 80 for looking so good on 37 inch rubbers!

 

[Wrencher93]

@baldilocks one more question: how does your set up handle when driving off camber? I noticed with mine that body roll seemed to make any considerable off camber scenario feel very dicey, whether it actually was or not. I can only imagine that more lift and taller tires would aggravate this.

 

[baldilocks]

Gears are another subject that gets debated here a lot. I would have chosen 4.88’s had they not been in the green 80 when I bought it due to the fact that the 5.29 pinion only engages one tooth at a time. And now with the 10% high range under drive gear available, we can go a tad bit lower than a 5.29 gear set and retain the larger pinion gear of the 4.88’s

 

[baldilocks]

@baldilocks one more question: how does your set up handle when driving off camber? I noticed with mine that body roll seemed to make any considerable off camber scenario feel very dicey, whether it actually was or not. I can only imagine that more lift and taller tires would aggravate this.

The higher the weight the more dicey your sets will feel is true, this is why I don’t run a roof rack habitually. As I said before, we all learn to drive what we built.

 

[Wrencher93]

Gears are another subject that gets debated here a lot. I would have chosen 4.88’s had they not been in the green 80 when I bought it due to the fact that the 5.29 pinion only engages one tooth at a time. And now with the 10% high range under drive gear available, we can go a tad bit lower than a 5.29 gear set and retain the larger pinion gear if the 4.88’s.

So you're running 4.88 diffs with high range TC gears as well? I've heard of this but just haven't talked to anyone that has them.

 

[Wrencher93]

That may make my decision tree a little simpler - I could install the 4.88's and then if I ever got the wild hair for 37's I could do the TC gears later.