Right tool for the job - a discussion of rig design and usage (1 Viewer)

[MDarius]

I just dropped a few Franklyn’s on a new crank pulley because the oil seal leaked again 4 years post replacement and the pulley seal surface shows significant wear at 302k miles. My rear driveline got knackered pretty good on some rocks back in September so there’s another couple hundred at least. But spending $1,000 after every off road event isn’t something that’s remotely common.

It’s important to buy the newest and most well maintained 80 you can afford at purchase time unless you are well off or a Cracker Jack mechanic. I would not consider an older car that spent any considerable amount of time in places where roads are salted during winter.

What’s the alternative to an older Toyota? Jeep? No thanks.... Late model Toyota’s loaded with electronics and IFS? No thanks?

I prefer to buy decent equipment that I have great appreciation for, get to know it very well and keep it going. My DD is a 2005 dodge turbo diesel that has only 166k miles on the clock. I’ve replaced some things on it (ignition switch is next) but in the long run, with a decent piece of equipment, I’ll save money over buying new. As for emissions, people seem to overlook the pollution that manufacturing causes. I won’t be demanding a new car for some years to come.

I believe that a lot of 80 owners don’t really need the off road capability it offers and are mostly caught up in the mystique of the vehicle. A 100 or even a Chevy Tahoe would serve better many 80 owners as these vehicles are newer and have a bit more power.

Alright, so, I exaggerate. BUT, I did it to make a point. When you consider the cost of a trip:
1. Getting there, doing your thing, and getting back at 12-14MPG (I know, someone is going to say they get 18MPG.)
2. Alignment $60
3. TRE's - $100
4. Tires - $1,000 at least ("I spent $800!" Shutup. It's the internet and we're generalizing)
5. Shocks - $800
6. Exhaust repair - $200+
7. New radiator and fluids - $400
8. Wear and tear on 25 year-old stuff that doesn't handle abuse like it used to - from electrical, to hoses, to leather, to...whatever else - $???
9. The stuff you need to upgrade/buy/maintain because this trip would have been better if.... - $400 to $2,000

Of course you don't have to do this every time! However, a good, hard trip is going to reveal weaknesses in your vehicle and it's going to cost money to fix it, and you have to fix it now because you need to drive it to work on Monday. My point is, this is not a hobby for families on a budget. I replace my TRE's every couple years. Tires 3-4 years. Shocks 3-4 years. I've had to do 4 exhaust repairs on 3 vehicles this year due to offroading (hangers, cracks, and pinches), I had to replace the radiator last year. Was it because I drive too fast on washboard roads, or because it was old, or both? Every time I get in my 80 I love it, but I get a little depressed because I see things I want to make better and it takes money...money that I could be putting towards helping my kids get a leg up on life as they enter adulthood, medical bills, other debts, my yard, my house, broken down furniture, that roof I know needs to be replaced soon...

I'm not complaining! I'm really not! But this dude asked about using an 80 for a daily driver and wheeling with a family. Sometimes you have to drop money on it when your kid needs braces, or you lost your job and still have to put food on the table, or you SHOULD do a family vacation 3 states away and visit your uncle, but your budget is needed for maintenance, or a pandemic hits and your financial future is in question. The older the little tax deductions get, the more often you have to do that. I've owned an 80 for 15 years, and for 12 of those 15 years my 80 has needed new front seats and there is ALWAYS something I need to baseline, upgrade, or repair. BECAUSE IT'S OLD! When your family vehicle looks like a bobcat got loose on the inside, there's some social pressure when you drive carpool.

I stand by my first exaggeration. I feel like my 80 ALWAYS needs about $1,000 of love. Right now, I need the shocks, alignment, new seats, replace all fluids, fix a hanging exhaust, and replace all the water hoses. Does it still drive? Yes. But I need to find a place in the family budget to take care of all that. I also should provide rock sliders with cat protection so I don't have so many problems underneath. And a winch. And Maxtraxx because you can't be an overlander without Maxtraxx! AND A FRIGGIN' ROOFTOP TENT! THAT'S the reality of his use case.

 

[baldilocks]

Alright, so, I exaggerate. BUT, I did it to make a point. When you consider the cost of a trip:
1. Getting there, doing your thing, and getting back at 12-14MPG (I know, someone is going to say they get 18MPG.)
2. Alignment $60
3. TRE's - $100
4. Tires - $1,000 at least ("I spent $800!" Shutup. It's the internet and we're generalizing)
5. Shocks - $800
6. Exhaust repair - $200+
7. New radiator and fluids - $400
8. Wear and tear on 25 year-old stuff that doesn't handle abuse like it used to - from electrical, to hoses, to leather, to...whatever else - $???
9. The stuff you need to upgrade/buy/maintain because this trip would have been better if.... - $400 to $2,000

Of course you don't have to do this every time! However, a good, hard trip is going to reveal weaknesses in your vehicle and it's going to cost money to fix it, and you have to fix it now because you need to drive it to work on Monday. My point is, this is not a hobby for families on a budget. I replace my TRE's every couple years. Tires 3-4 years. Shocks 3-4 years. I've had to do 4 exhaust repairs on 3 vehicles this year due to offroading (hangers, cracks, and pinches), I had to replace the radiator last year. Was it because I drive too fast on washboard roads, or because it was old, or both? Every time I get in my 80 I love it, but I get a little depressed because I see things I want to make better and it takes money...money that I could be putting towards helping my kids get a leg up on life as they enter adulthood, medical bills, other debts, my yard, my house, broken down furniture, that roof I know needs to be replaced soon...

I'm not complaining! I'm really not! But this dude asked about using an 80 for a daily driver and wheeling with a family. Sometimes you have to drop money on it when your kid needs braces, or you lost your job and still have to put food on the table, or you SHOULD do a family vacation 3 states away and visit your uncle, but your budget is needed for maintenance, or a pandemic hits and your financial future is in question. The older the little tax deductions get, the more often you have to do that. I've owned an 80 for 15 years, and for 12 of those 15 years my 80 has needed new front seats and there is ALWAYS something I need to baseline, upgrade, or repair. BECAUSE IT'S OLD! When your family vehicle looks like a bobcat got loose on the inside, there's some social pressure when you drive carpool.

I stand by my first exaggeration. I feel like my 80 ALWAYS needs about $1,000 of love. Right now, I need the shocks, alignment, new seats, replace all fluids, fix a hanging exhaust, and replace all the water hoses. Does it still drive? Yes. But I need to find a place in the family budget to take care of all that. I also should provide rock sliders with cat protection so I don't have so many problems underneath. And a winch. And Maxtraxx because you can't be an overlander without Maxtraxx! AND A FRIGGIN' ROOFTOP TENT! THAT'S the reality of his use case.

Obviously, you’ve read “Catcher in the Rye”. Such colorful writing is rare on Mud. There are many things we can control to improve our daily life and selling cars that bring stress to us is one of those things we can do.

Admittedly, an 80 series Land Cruiser was unaffordable for me until kids were gone and the vehicles were long overdue the care we administer here in our neurotically committed community.

I’ve spent untold thousands on my metal mistress but half of that was making sure it was reliable 50 miles from nowhere. Not sure if those parts I replaced would have failed yet or not but the new ones are in and the originals are carried as spares because, at 53 yers old, I don’t have time for messing around with unnecessary break downs.

I’d say that the value all added up shines a bright light on land cruiser ownership.

 

[Wrencher93]

"But this dude asked about using an 80 for a daily driver and wheeling with a family."
That's not what I asked about. I never said DD.

This is what I said:
"1.) If you were going to use your 80 as a family adventure vehicle (as many of us do) capable of both moderate to hard wheeling as well as seeing many highway miles - what would your choice build look like in terms of engine/transmission, lift height, tire size, etc?"

However, now that I've clarified, I will say that I agree with the points you made. This is not an economical choice for a primary vehicle. It's a reliable one. It's a cool one. It's not a cheap one. But I'm not under the impression that it is.

 

[Wrencher93]

And so we're clear, I already own the RTT, the roof rack, the lift, the armor, the tires, the lights, the winch, etc...so my focus now is on good maintenance which would be required of any other-than-new vehicle. Are land cruisers cheap to work on? No. There is a price of entry and a price of maintenance. All good life lessons. Not gonna pretend like they don't exist.

 

[MDarius]

And so we're clear, I already own the RTT, the roof rack, the lift, the armor, the tires, the lights, the winch, etc...s

Yeah....that's good.

Sorry I misunderstood your use case. I took it as a primary family vehicle AND adventure vehicle. That changes a lot about my opinion. Yes. It's the perfect vehicle for THAT!

 

[Wrencher93]

I created this thread and posed the question about the "ideal" build because I want input from others. And I have gotten a good deal of it which I am very happy about. I didn’t ask about MPG, or whether this vehicle was the holy grail, or how I could make it invincible for less than $100... I asked what, in the opinion of other 80 owners and users, made a well-rounded, capable machine. If yall want to talk about why you think the 80 is too expensive, I will listen with open ears and even take some notes if the discussion gets good enough - but l'm not the one knocking on that door. It has been my intent this entire time to gather useful information and well-intentioned advice for my own use and consideration. I hope others have found it useful as well. In fact, @MDarius, I think your perspective is much more realistic than most are comfortable with. I just don't want you to think I'm ignoring that perspective. I am painfully aware of it.

 

[MDarius]

Obviously, you’ve read “Catcher in the Rye”. Such colorful writing is rare on Mud. There are many things we can control to improve our daily life and selling cars that bring stress to us is one of those things we can do.

Admittedly, an 80 series Land Cruiser was unaffordable for me until kids were gone and the vehicles were long overdue the care we administer here in our neurotically committed community.

I’ve spent untold thousands on my metal mistress but half of that was making sure it was reliable 50 miles from nowhere. Not sure if those parts I replaced would have failed yet or not but the new ones are in and the originals are carried as spares because, at 53 yers old, I don’t have time for messing around with unnecessary break downs.

I’d say that the value all added up shines a bright light on land cruiser ownership.

Haha! Yes, I've read it, and at least two other books! I tend to be a little wordy.

And there's no way I'm selling this. I told my kids a long time ago they were on their own for college. It doesn't change the fact that every time I spend several hundred dollars on my 80 as I look at my newly married son or daughter struggling with money, I don't feel a little guilt...for a minute.

 

[MDarius]

I created this thread and posed the question about the "ideal" build because I want input from others. And I have gotten a good deal of it which I am very happy about. I didn’t ask about MPG, or whether this vehicle was the holy grail, or how I could make it invincible for less than $100... I asked what, in the opinion of other 80 owners and users, made a well-rounded, capable machine. If yall want to talk about why you think the 80 is too expensive, I will listen with open ears and even take some notes if the discussion gets good enough - but l'm not the one knocking on that door. It has been my intent this entire time to gather useful information and well-intentioned advice for my own use and consideration. I hope others have found it useful as well. In fact, @MDarius, I think your perspective is much more realistic than most are comfortable with. I just don't want you to think I'm ignoring that perspective. I am painfully aware of it.

Nah, we're good, man. I get it. I just think that people who are weighing an 80 against other life decisions need to go in eyes wide open. Looks like you've got it. I love the 80! But owning it as my family DD has meant that we choose to make other decisions and sacrifices to live that life. It's well worth it.

 

[Wrencher93]

See, I'm taking more of a long-term creative license with this. I'm going to invest a bunch of money in the vehicle, go on some sweet family trips with my kids as they grow, and probably spend a little more money on repairs...then when they're ready for college and ask about their college fund - then and only then - I will reveal the rich life experience and education they have gained and it will dawn on them how hideously I have mismanaged and mis-allocated their college fund. It will be an edge-of-your-seat nail-biter. A plot twist so long and subtle in the making that I'll be able to write a book about it whose sales will fund the Cummins swap

 

[baldilocks]

Haha! Yes, I've read it, and at least two other books! I tend to be a little wordy.

And there's no way I'm selling this. I told my kids a long time ago they were on their own for college. It doesn't change the fact that every time I spend several hundred dollars on my 80 as I look at my newly married son or daughter struggling with money, I don't feel a little guilt...for a minute.

One builds character on their own timeline. Speaking of drainage, I just got a call from driveline of Portland and they tell me I’m in for $900 to refresh two rear drivelines. Neither one has more than 25k miles but the duty density was killer I guess. “Duty density”. You heard it here first.

 

[Wrencher93]

What exactly are they refreshing?

 

[MDarius]

One builds character on their own timeline. Speaking of drainage, I just got a call from driveline of Portland and they tell me I’m in for $900 to refresh two rear drivelines. Neither one has more than 25k miles but the duty density was killer I guess. “Duty density”. You heard it here first.

"Duty Density"? Does that mean that your usage characteristics exceed the engineering duty specs for this piece of hardware? I love it!

 

[Wrencher93]

"Duty Density"? Does that mean that your usage characteristics exceed the engineering duty specs for this piece of hardware? I love it!

No, it means 37's

 

[baldilocks]

I run a DC shafts at the rear as well. If you saw my 80 you wouldn’t be asking this question. Haha. The dc joints can be over flexed. I did do some clearance work with a grinder to enable the joint to do greater angles but they can still be overcome. The DC joints are spicer 1310 joints and a bit lighter in the ass than what Toyota put in there. That’s why the shop said nothing about the Toyota end of my shafts. I think they are trying to save face with rebuilding totally both DC joints as I had no problems with either but whatever. I’ll be set for a while.

 

[baldilocks]

Density of duty impacts usage loosely depending on how often usage occurs.

 

[Wrencher93]

Usage meaning rate of replacement/ service life or "usage" meaning how often the part sees operation?

 

[alia176]

Ok, so let's take care of the admin stuff first, shall we?
Yes, I have read other threads.
Yes, I know the search function works.
Yes, I know there is no clear cut answer to the questions I'm about to ask because, well, it's like asking what type of pizza is the best.

So, for those up for a friendly and informative discussion about the build process as a whole - welcome and please share whatever information you feel is relevant and useful.

Let me get down to the point by laying out the questions I hope to answer for myself (or at least get closer to an answer):

1.) If you were going to use your 80 as a family adventure vehicle (as many of us do) capable of both moderate to hard wheeling as well as seeing many highway miles - what would your choice build look like in terms of engine/transmission, lift height, tire size, etc? I realize this is a massively broad question - it is meant to be. I want opinions. Facts are welcome and I want the opinions to be based on reasonable arguments but this isn't a "how to" thread this is an exercise in imagination and long term decision making.

2.) If you were starting with a 1997 FZJ80 with 249k miles, 2" lift, and 35's with stock gears - which of the following (if any) would you pursue?
a.) Engine rebuild and Wit's End turbo
b.) Cummins 6bt swap with Toyota trans
c.) Cummins 6bt with manual trans
d.) Toyota engine swap (fill in the blank)
e.) LS swap (which one?)
f.) PM the heck out of it and leave it the hell alone (also read, keep stock)

Let me fill in a few gaps by sharing my personal reqiurements/wants for my truck.
Requirements:
1.) Gets me where I need to go (read reliable)
2.) Has reasonable parts availability over the next decade, or more. Doesn't have to be the cheapest or MOST common - but available enough that it won't be a total witch hunt for parts when I need them.
3.) Can be driven thousands of miles with no issue, assuming a sane driver and reasonable PM
Wants:
1.) Enjoyable to drive both offroad and at highway speeds
2.) Enough power to pass on the interstate
3.) OK gas mileage - notice I said "OK" not "good"
4.) Makes sense financially - that doesn't mean "cheap" or "practical" it means "am I getting a return, in terms of experience, that is comparable to how much coin I'm dropping on this project?"

There ya, go. Flame suit on.

I didn't read all the comments but I've been having a blast with my 80, doing remote work and such w/o a single bit of worry. It gets me there and back reliably and comfortably. I installed seats from a 2006 LR3 which really helped with the ergonomics over these long trips. The rig has been sound deadened, and a wind fairing in front of the Autohome Columbus RTT helps with the noise, which is great over a long trip. I'm not sure if the running costs are that high, for me at least, but the smiles/gallon is definitely up there . More info on my sig line.

 

[baldilocks]

Usages means usage

 

[Wrencher93]

Usages means usage

Thanks for that tidbit. Haha

 

[baldilocks]

Thanks for that tidbit. Haha

Usage is the least I can express.