Real-time Wheel removal problem...
- Thread starter Markuson
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For 30 years I've been applying anti-seize to hubs to prevent aluminum wheels from binding and have never experienced anti-seize migrating during the vehicle's operation.
Does anyone have a picture of the application point? I am having the RW installed on my LC today, and definitely don't want to experience the same issues when I go to rotate my tires in the future. Thanks everybody.
Ok, that makes sense. So it's those contact points with dissimilar metals that creates the "welding" effect, and anti-seize should prevent this from happening, correct? Thanks for posting Markuson, this definitely saves some aggravation down the road.
Ya, only mention RWs because I haven't run into it before.
Had a similar thought, but they were afraid the bolts might dig into the wheels when they finally released. Just now got them off with a big pry bar again...and using a metal brush drill bit to clean off all the crud on the wheels and hubs. What's odd is that it's only ever happened on the front.
Thanks for responding.
Still curious how common this is, as it seems the contact points in front attract/create(?) rusty, stick crud... (For lack of a proper term...)
My front OEM wheels are stuck on tight after this winter's corrosive mess on the roads. A BFH on the tire didn't work. Where did you pry to avoid damage to the wheel and/or hub and/or fender?
Wtf is with all the hate on applying anti-sieze on the wheel lug studs? I have been doing this for almost 40 years, cars and trucks, never busted a stud, never had one come loose, never a problem. Ever.
I have seen dry studs become galled, however.
Seems like some urban legend stuff going on in here. Is there a reliable source that clearly proves why this is a bad idea?
I also paint a light coat on the back of my wheels to keep them from sticking to the drums/hubs/mounting flange. Works well, but my annual inspection guy doesn't like it, messy.
I have seen dry studs become galled, however.
Seems like some urban legend stuff going on in here. Is there a reliable source that clearly proves why this is a bad idea?
I also paint a light coat on the back of my wheels to keep them from sticking to the drums/hubs/mounting flange. Works well, but my annual inspection guy doesn't like it, messy.
bloc
SILVER Star
Find me a street vehicle that specs anti seize on lugs/studs from the factory. It is so uncommon because the risks outweigh the benefits. Get some of that stuff on the cone portion of an acorn lug nut and you are directly impacting the friction-creating surface that keeps the lug from loosening by itself.
Not to mention it altering the clamping force by reducing thread friction.
Correct material lugs torqued to spec from the vehicle being new usually won’t gall.
And you not having problems in 40 years doesn’t mean a problem can’t pop up at 41. Same story for the many, many other people that use A/S on studs.. but there are far more millions of other cars with no anti-seize and no galling problems that don’t have ANY of the risks of anti seize on such a critical fastener.
I’m not telling you what to do with your car, but to say you don’t understand why people are critical of that practice despite the reasons being described clearly before is disingenuous
Jack up the truck. Remove the lug nuts. Get your sledgehammer. Put the sledge under the truck. Gently swing the sledgehammer parallel to the ground such that it hits the bottom of the tire, pushing outwards. It won't take much of a swing to pop the wheel off the hub.
Use a wire brush to get the corrosion off the hub. Then get a paper towl and spread a light coating of anti-seize on the mating surface of the hub.
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You still haven't provided any definitive proof from a reliable source. This sounds like opinion to me. That's pretty much what I find when I search.
Look, I'm not saying all you good smart folks are wrong, not at all. I am very willing to be convinced of the error in my ways. I am super careful to not get any on the seat of the lug nut, I can see how that could cause a problem. It's not like I slobber the stuff on, it's just a light coat with the brush.
I learned about the wonders of anti-sieze from a close family friend back in high school, he built cars for a living. Then saw it being used when I worked for a large oil field service company with a huge truck fleet, back in the 80s.
2001LC
SILVER Star
I had one wheel that lugs and wheel took two days to get off. I had to put my 3/4" breaker bar to work on lugs. After I used plumbers torch with NAP gas, heated, then rapidly cooling lugs & hub with PB blaster. In this case the wheels were trashed, so I ended up pound/damaging directly on them w/5lb sledge to get off. I didn't try it, but someone had suggested using bottle jack and 4x4 between LH & RH tires or frame.
I use marine grease or Red-N-Tacky on axle wheel hubs, to protect against corrosion and these freeze up condition like above cases. While this does break the clamping force (static friction pressure) of wheel to axle wheel hub, I don't feel a "bad thing". I say not a "bad thing", as our wheel ar hub centric and lug fixed. I've never had issue with greasing wheel hub. If some grease gets on threads of lug's studs, I'm ok with that. I just wipe but I do not degrease them. I'm not ok with tire shop using impact wrench with torque extension. They will way over torque, especially if stud threads are oily or greasy. Using a standard torque wrench will only slightly over torque, if grease/oil on lugs. Toyota use very light torque on most nuts and bolts anyway. A little extra torque on lugs is not a big deal if done evenly and in a star pattern taking down in steps. I also like just a little grease on outside of lug (between lug and wheel lug socket). This helps reduce wear damage of wheel socket from lugs going in and out over the years.
I use grease on undercarriage areas, which includes suspension. Any area that gets wet any holds moisture in like axle hub to wheel I grease. One mud member made a good point and backup with an aerospace document. This AS doc dealt with clamping force vs shear strength among other bolting & lubing procedures. Due to his constructive and well documented reasoning, I changed my procedure and don't grease in areas where I feel clamping force (static pressure) is important. But I still grease wheel hubs.
I use marine grease or Red-N-Tacky on axle wheel hubs, to protect against corrosion and these freeze up condition like above cases. While this does break the clamping force (static friction pressure) of wheel to axle wheel hub, I don't feel a "bad thing". I say not a "bad thing", as our wheel ar hub centric and lug fixed. I've never had issue with greasing wheel hub. If some grease gets on threads of lug's studs, I'm ok with that. I just wipe but I do not degrease them. I'm not ok with tire shop using impact wrench with torque extension. They will way over torque, especially if stud threads are oily or greasy. Using a standard torque wrench will only slightly over torque, if grease/oil on lugs. Toyota use very light torque on most nuts and bolts anyway. A little extra torque on lugs is not a big deal if done evenly and in a star pattern taking down in steps. I also like just a little grease on outside of lug (between lug and wheel lug socket). This helps reduce wear damage of wheel socket from lugs going in and out over the years.
I use grease on undercarriage areas, which includes suspension. Any area that gets wet any holds moisture in like axle hub to wheel I grease. One mud member made a good point and backup with an aerospace document. This AS doc dealt with clamping force vs shear strength among other bolting & lubing procedures. Due to his constructive and well documented reasoning, I changed my procedure and don't grease in areas where I feel clamping force (static pressure) is important. But I still grease wheel hubs.
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Just so you know, I have never applied locktite to my wheels or studs to ensure they don’t loosen magically so your applying never seize to lugs is right up my alley. I agree whole heartedly with your contention that nuts that aren’t seized up will not come loose. I have ruined too many OEM lug wrenches on over torqued bolts think that you may be wrong. It wouldn’t matter to me if I couldn’t get the wheel off the hub or the nuts off the lugs, both suck equally.
Thanks, that worked. I just wasn't using a big enough hammer the first time. My 3 lb sledge didn't work, but the 10 pounder knocked them off. I protected the tire with a 2X4. The culprit is the circular area where the inside of the aluminum wheel fits over the steel hub. When the corrosion expands the aluminum, it's tight. I wonder if that might be place for light coating of brake grease? That black (graphic-based?) thick grease is not affected by high temps and might be an anti-corrosive.
I just use a light coat of anti-seize. Keep it away from the rotor and you’ll be fine.
I too have used silver antiseize on hub flanges and studs for close to 50 years, on every vehicle I have owned, I never had a single problem with a wheel binding or nuts flying off. The Permatex stuff sold everywhere even says on the can that it will NOT affect the fastener torque values.
"Reassemble parts using normal torque values."
However, the tech data definitely warns to not use it on wheel studs.
https://441py33rout1ptjxn2lupv31-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/tech_docs/tds/80078.pdf
That said, I use just a TINY amount on the first couple of threads of the studs, and do not put any more on after that. The intent is to kill rust formation. If you slobber it on, you might have issues!
I put a SMALL amount on the hub flange and the hub bearing housing (where hub centric wheels always hang up) and wipe most of it off with a dry blue shop paper towel, essentially forcing it into the pores but not leaving a thick surface layer. I check it every tire rotation and touch up lightly if needed.
For what it is worth, I am an ex-A&P tech and I don't give a flip what "most people say" about it... this method works very well. just use common sense and restraint.
John Davies
Spokane WA
"Reassemble parts using normal torque values."
However, the tech data definitely warns to not use it on wheel studs.
https://441py33rout1ptjxn2lupv31-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/tech_docs/tds/80078.pdf
That said, I use just a TINY amount on the first couple of threads of the studs, and do not put any more on after that. The intent is to kill rust formation. If you slobber it on, you might have issues!
I put a SMALL amount on the hub flange and the hub bearing housing (where hub centric wheels always hang up) and wipe most of it off with a dry blue shop paper towel, essentially forcing it into the pores but not leaving a thick surface layer. I check it every tire rotation and touch up lightly if needed.
For what it is worth, I am an ex-A&P tech and I don't give a flip what "most people say" about it... this method works very well. just use common sense and restraint.
John Davies
Spokane WA
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Markuson
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #40
It’s not the studs that get stuck. It’s aluminum surface of the wheel (like rock warriors) metal reacting to the hub metal. Even with ALL STUDS REMOVED it can take a long pry bar and major muscle to get them off.
So... What you do is you apply a thin coat of anti-sieze to the hub surface that touches the aluminum wheel...not the studs.
Problem solved.
