Pics of cams at proper TDC

[ariff]

So the PO's shade tree mechanic has installed the cams incorrectly in the 93 Land Cruiser when he was replacing the head gasket. Big mistake that needs to be fixed and that's where I am at now on this project.. Any chance anyone out there has some good pics or can take some good pics of the cam and lobs so I can maybe attempt to properly line them up for removal.. It appears the exhaust cam is in right but the intake is 180 degrees off. Having some detailed pics of how it is supposed to look might help me sort things out..
Thanks!

 

[inkpot]

FSM shows proper alignment of dots on cam gears

 

[ariff]

Yeah I have seen all that.. However my intake cam is 180 degrees off. I'd like to see some real pics of a proper setup so when I try removing the incorrectly installed cam it is indeed sitting right before I attempt to remove it.. Here is a link to my thread about the issue
trying to resurrect a 93 that has been sitting 2 yrs won't start

 

[jfz80]

But someone has put his in out of alignment. Trying to reverse engineer so to speak so he knows which bearing caps to use to lift the cam with.

I have some pics from teardown last night but cant say for certain they were taken at TDC so ill refrain to prevent any confusion/misinformation. Should have it back by end of week if all goes well. Ill post up then if you still need.

 

[baldilocks]

@ariff

 

[ariff]

@ariffView attachment 1387613

Awesome thank you!

 

[baldilocks]

Note the distributor rotor position.

 

[ppc]

Yeah I have seen all that.. However my intake cam is 180 degrees off. I'd like to see some real pics of a proper setup so when I try removing the incorrectly installed cam it is indeed sitting right before I attempt to remove it.. Here is a link to my thread about the issue
trying to resurrect a 93 that has been sitting 2 yrs won't start

Might want to re-think this but the intake cam is the starting point and is installed first, second the exhaust cam is installed relative to the intake cam. Third the cam sprocket is installed which sets the relationship of the cams to the crank/pistons. Last the distributor gets installed. In your case I would remove distribuotor, cam sprocket, exhaust cam in that order. There is no need to remove the intake cam unless you want to examine each of the valves individually. As someone mentioned in your other post it would be a good idea to check valve clearances both before diassembly and after the cams are reinstalled.

 

[ariff]

Might want to re-think this but the intake cam is the starting point and is installed first, second the exhaust cam is installed relative to the intake cam. Third the cam sprocket is installed which sets the relationship of the cams to the crank/pistons. Last the distributor gets installed. In your case I would remove distribuotor, cam sprocket, exhaust cam in that order. There is no need to remove the intake cam unless you want to examine each of the valves individually. As someone mentioned in your other post it would be a good idea to check valve clearances both before diassembly and after the cams are reinstalled.

I am a total newbie here with this stuff.. But if that intake cam is installed 180 degrees off wouldn't it be opening and closing the intake valves at the wrong time? And if I do what you are saying and install the exhaust cam in 180 off to match up the dots on the intake cam the exhaust valves would not open and close correctly. I still really don't have my head wrapped around how to fix this problem. So my ears are wide open to suggestions.

 

[baldilocks]

Seems logical to follow the FSM tear down and remove both cams and start from scratch.

 

[ariff]

Here is my thought process.. Like I said I don't fully understand the problem so I could be wrong.. And sorry to start a new thread on this for anyone following my problem.
1. Find TDC no. 1 cylinder on compression stroke.. Check I have done this.
2. Place match marks on timing gear at tdc and tdc 180 out
3.TDC on comp stroke shows exhaust cam is installed correctly. Remove exhaust cam per FSM leaving the no 4 and 6 bearing caps till the last to lift the can straight out and hopefully not cause any damage to the head or cam as warned in FSM
4. remove camshaft timing gear.
5. turn intake cam by the bolt holding the dist. gear on this way I can turn the cam to proper orientation and not the crank. No1 cylinder should still be at TDC on compression stroke
6. Remove intake cam per FSM
7. Install exhaust cam properly
8. Install intake cam properly matching up the one dot marks
9. Install the timing gear
10. if I do everything right the timing gear match marks will be off by 180 degrees from my marks I did in step 2 hopefully keeping everything lined up elsewhere..
Sound like a good plan or a bad plan?

 

[baldilocks]

It has been nearly two years since I had my head off and snapped those pics so I can't remember it all in detail but it looks like you have a good understanding. The fsm is very explicit and easy to follow. If your number one piston is indeed at TDC you will be golden if you follow the manual.

Don't forget the step where you install the small bole into the split gear on the exhaust cam. I did forget but it turned out to be no big deal to install the bolt just prior to installing the exhaust cam. REMEMBER to remove that damn bolt!

Zip tie the timing chain to the gear. Again, i don't see where this is absolutely imperative because the timing chain does not care exactly where it is at and if you get those cams in there properly the gear can only go on correctly (think about if the engine were being completely disassembled.

Use the manual and you will be fine and very proud when she fires up and runs properly.

 

[jfz80]

Seems logical to follow the FSM test down and remove both cams and start from scratch.

But his cam is not installed right so the fsm may not be correct. Perhaps i am the one spreading unecessary caution but the way i understood it was the lobes or bearing journals chosen to lift the cam were not evenly centered so I thought it was of the position of lobe to lifter so as to lift evenly without binding the cam up or damaging lobe surface

Share away. Here to learn as well

@ariff im withnppc on not needing to remove the intake cam

And step 3 is where im not certain. I would want to make sure you could use #4 & 6 to lift with if the cam is out of sequence.

 

[ariff]

But his cam is not installed right so the fsm may not be correct. Perhaps i am the one spreading unecessary caution but the way i understood it was the lobes or bearing journals chosen to lift the cam were not evenly centered so I thought it was of the position of lobe to lifter so as to lift evenly without binding the cam up or damaging lobe surface

Share away. Here to learn as well

@ariff im withnppc on not needing to remove the intake cam

And step 3 is where im not certain. I would want to make sure you could use #4 & 6 to lift with if the cam is out of sequence.

So looking at the pic @baldilocks attached that is correct my exhaust cam matches that. So I would think I can go about removing it per the FSM as the lobes should be centered to lift out. The intake cam is not however and I would not want to remove it via #4 and 6 bearing journals because the lobs would not be centered. Nor would I want to leave the intake cam in 180 degrees off as I would think that would cause issues opening and closing the intake valves right?

 

[jfz80]

Makes sense.

Just fyi. The FSM listed caps for lifting the intake cam are #'s 2 and 5

I was thinking you could just rotate the intake cam to corect position and reinstall exhaust and be good but im above my paygrade here now.

If your intake cam is positioned different than baldilocks post then you very well may have to R n R it. Sounds like you got a plan and understanding of whats at play

 

[baldilocks]

But his cam is not installed right so the fsm may not be correct. Perhaps i am the one spreading unecessary caution but the way i understood it was the lobes or bearing journals chosen to lift the cam were not evenly centered so I thought it was of the position of lobe to lifter so as to lift evenly without binding the cam up or damaging lobe surface

Share away. Here to learn as well

@ariff im withnppc on not needing to remove the intake cam

And step 3 is where im not certain. I would want to make sure you could use #4 & 6 to lift with if the cam is out of sequence.

In that case, the cam was installed improperly (is it damaged right now?), and was probably removed improperly by the PO (again, is it damaged now).

The engine may need to be rotated until the cam being removed is positioned as in the photo I posted with complete disregard to the crank shaft. Once each cam is removed, the #1 piston could be brought up to TDC, the cams installed and then the timing gear installed.

Yes, i do realize that the timing chain is installed but if @ariff has a trusty assistant to hold and rotate the riming gear as he rotates the crank to TDC after the cams are installed this might work without needing to somehow free the timing chain from the crank gear.

Or he just takes his chances and removes the cams as they are little by little because, like I said, they were probably already subjected to improper maintenance procedures in the past.

 

[baldilocks]

So looking at the pic @baldilocks attached that is correct my exhaust cam matches that. So I would think I can go about removing it per the FSM as the lobes should be centered to lift out. The intake cam is not however and I would not want to remove it via #4 and 6 bearing journals because the lobs would not be centered. Nor would I want to leave the intake cam in 180 degrees off as I would think that would cause issues opening and closing the intake valves right?

Sounds like you can leave the intake cam alone and pull the timing gear off then rotate the crank 180, put the gear back on then rotate another 180 and install the exhaust cam per fsm. This will require a buddy to handle the timing chain and gear whilst you rotate the crank.

 

[Pin_Head]

It appears the exhaust cam is in right but the intake is 180 degrees off.

180 degrees off from what? The crank shaft? If so, that is normal because the crank turns twice for every rotation of the cam. When the cam is 180 degrees out, the engine is at TDC of the compression stroke for #6; not #1. Turn the crank one more time and it will be in phase with the crank and the cams.

 

[inkpot]

Are the marks on the cam gears in the proper final position as per the FSM?

 

[ajax1]

What do you wanna bet he did not torque the head bolts right? I'd pull both cams and chain off then check couple head bolts, torque is like around 33ftlbs then two 90 degree passes Robbie always had me do little more then the fsm torque which I think was 29 don't remember, final torque if I remember right is between 90 to 100 ft lbs with the 90s added in