Pics of cams at proper TDC

[ppc]

Well I jumped in tonight and gave it my best shot and found more half ass stuff the previous mechanic did.. I don't even want to call him that anymore. He is not a mechanic.. He is a gremlin yes that is what he is to me now a gremlin.. Not the cute fuzzy kind the mean green kind.. Anyhow here is what I found. The sub gear and main gear holes do not line up so I could not put a bolt through it. I am not even sure what the purpose of these are and if I need to remedy it here is a pic:

I would be concerned that the gremlin may not have assembled the main gear, sub gear and wave washer properly. I'm totally guessing but the wave washer may provide a preload or thrust for the meshing of that gear assembly to the intake cam gear. Might lead to a premature wear issue of the gears. Can you try rotating the exhaust cam to see if the holes align as documented during the first step of the exhaust cam removal where the service bolt is installed.

 

[ariff]

I would be concerned that the gremlin may not have assembled the main gear, sub gear and wave washer properly. I'm totally guessing but the wave washer may provide a preload or thrust for the meshing of that gear assembly to the intake cam gear. Might lead to a premature wear issue of the gears. Can you try rotating the exhaust cam to see if the holes align as documented during the first step of the exhaust cam removal where the service bolt is installed.

I checked every hole on the sub gear there are three I think none of them pass through to the main gear..

 

[ariff]

Sounds like I can reset the sub and main gears by following this link:
Scissor Gear/Preload Gear Camshafts | Southside Cylinder Heads, Engine Reconditioning Australia
I am guessing when the gremlin removed the exhaust cam he did not have the service bolt in and it lost preload..

 

[jpoole]

@ariff it's possible to rotate the sub gear back into position and to insert a bolt without disassembly. You may have other reasons to take things apart but if you don't want to get into that you can use the holes on the subgear face as a way to grab onto the subgear and rotate it to the point where you can insert the bolt. Here's what I did in this situation. Keep in mind there are likely better/easier ways etc., this was just the easiest/safest way I thought of to do this without another set of hands or a vice.

• find an allen wrench that is the size of the three holes in the subgear, you want it to be close in size to the hole.
• trim a thick, firm piece of rubber to cover the cam bearing surface just in front of the subgear
• get a prybar of some sort, like a long screwdriver, the right size/shape will become more clear as you get setup
• get a bolt to go through the cam gears.
  
• place the came in a safe/soft place, I don't recall if I used my workbench or my lap but I was very careful to keep the cam clean and away from any hard surfaces
• rotate the main gear so that the threaded hole is towards you and will be easy to insert the bolt into one handed
• place a wrench on the appropriate spot on the cam to help keep it from rotating
  
• insert the allen wrench into the subgear hole that is on the far side of the cam from you
• place the rubber pad over the bottom of the bearing
• pry on the allen wrench and the rubber pad to rotate the subgear until you can insert the bolt and thread it in, you'll need to rotate the subgear clockwise the distance of about one tooth to get the holes to line up. Basically, with no preload the gears line up but are only one tooth off between the sub and main gears so the sub gear doesn't have to travel far to get back to preload.

With the right prybar it doesn't take much force to rotate the subgear carefully. I think I used a long screwdriver. I also think that I used my lap to hold the cam as that helped me hold it into place with my leg to free up a hand to insert the bolt. It's a bit of a contortion trick but wasn't hard to control or do at all. A helper or proper vice setup would make this very easy as they could secure the cam. The most important thing is that you don't damage the cam, particularly the bearing, lifter or gear surfaces. I was confident that I would not damage the bearing surface when I pried because the padding was very stiff rubber/plastic about 1/4" thick that had a good level of give/cushion. Also the prybar was not presenting any sharp edges or pressure points.

Anyway, long response but wanted to share another option. I'm guessing you may be able to think of better options (like using a vice) or may hear some good feedback from others here. Hopefully the gremlin only pulled the cam without the bolt and didn't disassemble things further, which does seem likely to me.

 

[ariff]

@ariff it's possible to rotate the sub gear back into position and to insert a bolt without disassembly. You may have other reasons to take things apart but if you don't want to get into that you can use the holes on the subgear face as a way to grab onto the subgear and rotate it to the point where you can insert the bolt. Here's what I did in this situation. Keep in mind there are likely better/easier ways etc., this was just the easiest/safest way I thought of to do this without another set of hands or a vice.

• find an allen wrench that is the size of the three holes in the subgear, you want it to be close in size to the hole.
• trim a thick, firm piece of rubber to cover the cam bearing surface just in front of the subgear
• get a prybar of some sort, like a long screwdriver, the right size/shape will become more clear as you get setup
• get a bolt to go through the cam gears.
  
• place the came in a safe/soft place, I don't recall if I used my workbench or my lap but I was very careful to keep the cam clean and away from any hard surfaces
• rotate the main gear so that the threaded hole is towards you and will be easy to insert the bolt into one handed
• place a wrench on the appropriate spot on the cam to help keep it from rotating
  
• insert the allen wrench into the subgear hole that is on the far side of the cam from you
• place the rubber pad over the bottom of the bearing
• pry on the allen wrench and the rubber pad to rotate the subgear until you can insert the bolt and thread it in, you'll need to rotate the subgear clockwise the distance of about one tooth to get the holes to line up. Basically, with no preload the gears line up but are only one tooth off between the sub and main gears so the sub gear doesn't have to travel far to get back to preload.

With the right prybar it doesn't take much force to rotate the subgear carefully. I think I used a long screwdriver. I also think that I used my lap to hold the cam as that helped me hold it into place with my leg to free up a hand to insert the bolt. It's a bit of a contortion trick but wasn't hard to control or do at all. A helper or proper vice setup would make this very easy as they could secure the cam. The most important thing is that you don't damage the cam, particularly the bearing, lifter or gear surfaces. I was confident that I would not damage the bearing surface when I pried because the padding was very stiff rubber/plastic about 1/4" thick that had a good level of give/cushion. Also the prybar was not presenting any sharp edges or pressure points.

Anyway, long response but wanted to share another option. I'm guessing you may be able to think of better options (like using a vice) or may hear some good feedback from others here. Hopefully the gremlin only pulled the cam without the bolt and didn't disassemble things further, which does seem likely to me.

OK I was able to get the sub gear and main gear lined up. I basically followed the FSM. I placed the cam in a bench vise using the Keyed area. Instead of using a bolt and screwdriver to leverage it in place per the FSM I used a pair of large 45 degree bent needle nose pliers. I put one tip in each available hole then turned it till the hole that lines up with the threaded hole on the back of the main gear came into path with each other. Inserted the threaded bolt in and got it lined up. Sheesh ok on to the broken bearing cap bolt now..

 

[retrofive]

I don't like to see anothers pain, but keep up the good work. I hope this story has a happy ending.

 

[baldilocks]

Did you mess with torquing the head bolts?

 

[midfat]

Given the myriad problems you're experiencing from the questionable mechanical events of the PO, I think you should consider pulling the head entirely, replacing the HG and starting from scratch. Let's face it, pretending there are not more problems under the head is a bit of a pipe dream at this point. Go back to square 1 and reboot the whole program.

 

[ariff]

Did you mess with torquing the head bolts?

No I did not.. And from what it sounds like I can't really check the torque specs any how with out loosening all the bolts and re-torquing right? Really at this point I am going to get the cams back in and give it a try and hope it works.. If this truck was in great condition everywhere else I'd think about putting in the time and money on redoing the HG properly.. But it is not it is a basket case.. The interior will have to be removed and thrown away due to a serious mold infestation.. I can live with that but not with that and rebuilding the engine. I'd be in way over what the car is worth in cash.. If this does not work I'll probably start parting it out and put the funds made on parts towards a better vehicle.

 

[ppc]

Sounds like I can reset the sub and main gears by following this link:
Scissor Gear/Preload Gear Camshafts | Southside Cylinder Heads, Engine Reconditioning Australia
I am guessing when the gremlin removed the exhaust cam he did not have the service bolt in and it lost preload..

Great find on that link. Rest assured that you've properly completed the installion of the cams. Before you reinstall the valve cover take the time to check and record the valve clearances. Do the compression check, final assembly, fire that puppy up and go for a well deserved cold frothy beverage or two.

 

[baldilocks]

@ariff, Did your engine make the ticking noise similar to excessive valve lifter clearance, prior to your recent discoveries, as described in the link you posted?

Let us know if she sounds quieter than before.

 

[ariff]

@ariff, Did your engine make the ticking noise similar to excessive valve lifter clearance, prior to your recent discoveries, as described in the link you posted?

Let us know if she sounds quieter than before.

I have never heard the engine actually run.. Just turn over and it sounded like an engine turning over with out compression.. Did not notice any clicking of valve noise..

 

[baldilocks]

I have never heard the engine actually run.. Just turn over and it sounded like an engine turning over with out compression.. Did not notice any clicking of valve noise..

You probably had no compression due to open valves that should have been closed. I am very glad that I have participated in this thread because I may have stumbled onto the cause of my upper in ticking sound. I have two 80's, a 93 and a 94. The 93 is and original engine and runs dead quiet. I had the head off the '94 18 months ago and pulled the exhaust cam without installing the service bolt. I did, however, install a bolt after preloading the sub-gear, or as least I thought so, prior to installation. When I started the engine up the first thing I thought was, I'm glad as hell this thing started and the second thing I thought was, why the hell is the valve train making that ticking. The HG job and other stuff I did under the hood took over 2 months so I was unsure if the ticking was new or not. I let it go because all else was satisfactory.
Then I bought the 93 and hearing how quietly it runs is really got me to wondering about the 94 which had been rebuilt just 18k miles earlier. Now, after reading the info in the link you posted I think I may need to pull the exhaust cam out of the 94 and check out the preload on the gear assembly.

 

[BILT4ME]

There's a 94 on Craigslist right now (with lockers) for $4000....... It runs and drives. May want to consider that one instead.

 

[ariff]

There's a 94 on Craigslist right now (with lockers) for $4000....... It runs and drives. May want to consider that one instead.[/QUOTE
Yeah the Grey one? It has been on there for a long time.. Must be something wrong with it. I actually went and looked at a lx450 in lawrence yesterday. Did not get a good feeling about it. guy had it for 5 years and could not tell me any maintenance history. Lots of rust front axle needed rebuilt. Massive oil leak.. Had lockers though.. But I have those already

 

[ariff]

You probably had no compression due to open valves that should have been closed. I am very glad that I have participated in this thread because I may have stumbled onto the cause of my upper in ticking sound. I have two 80's, a 93 and a 94. The 93 is and original engine and runs dead quiet. I had the head off the '94 18 months ago and pulled the exhaust cam without installing the service bolt. I did, however, install a bolt after preloading the sub-gear, or as least I thought so, prior to installation. When I started the engine up the first thing I thought was, I'm glad as hell this thing started and the second thing I thought was, why the hell is the valve train making that ticking. The HG job and other stuff I did under the hood took over 2 months so I was unsure if the ticking was new or not. I let it go because all else was satisfactory.
Then I bought the 93 and hearing how quietly it runs is really got me to wondering about the 94 which had been rebuilt just 18k miles earlier. Now, after reading the info in the link you posted I think I may need to pull the exhaust cam out of the 94 and check out the preload on the gear assembly.

Yeah from what I have read not having those gears under pre load can cause some noise.. Hopefully that's what is going on with your 93.. Glad I could help out somehow. ;>)

 

[jfz80]

No I did not.. And from what it sounds like I can't really check the torque specs any how with out loosening all the bolts and re-torquing right? Really at this point I am going to get the cams back in and give it a try and hope it works.. If this truck was in great condition everywhere else I'd think about putting in the time and money on redoing the HG properly.. But it is not it is a basket case.. The interior will have to be removed and thrown away due to a serious mold infestation.. I can live with that but not with that and rebuilding the engine. I'd be in way over what the car is worth in cash.. If this does not work I'll probably start parting it out and put the funds made on parts towards a better vehicle.

I completely get that point of view and agree in many ways too. But you are soooooo close to that head gasket. Manifolds off, unplug some sensors and your down to head bolts.

Either way congrats on all the new knowledge you never knew youd need. Lol. Good work and keep us posted

 

[MDarius]

Another thought is to get this engine running well, buy the $4000 '94 off Craigslist, keep the engine and good bits off this one and scrap the rest.

No I did not.. And from what it sounds like I can't really check the torque specs any how with out loosening all the bolts and re-torquing right? Really at this point I am going to get the cams back in and give it a try and hope it works.. If this truck was in great condition everywhere else I'd think about putting in the time and money on redoing the HG properly.. But it is not it is a basket case.. The interior will have to be removed and thrown away due to a serious mold infestation.. I can live with that but not with that and rebuilding the engine. I'd be in way over what the car is worth in cash.. If this does not work I'll probably start parting it out and put the funds made on parts towards a better vehicle.

 

[Eicca]

Another thought is to get this engine running well, buy the $4000 '94 off Craigslist, keep the engine and good bits off this one and scrap the rest.

Hey yeah @ariff you got it for free, right?? Two for the price of one. Build a frankenrig!

 

[ariff]

Oh man what a night my boy and I got her running.. He was so excited to see all our hard work come together.. I was pretty excited as well. However my mind goes right to what else is broken so I am trying not to get too excited. It fired right up after we got the cams aligned and runs nice and smooth. We let it get up to temp and I kept an eye on the coolant in the radiator to see it start moving around. I did not notice any signs of a bad HG at this time. We then got gutsy and decided to take her for a spin around the block. So you have to picture this in your mind. My son and I in garage clothes and rubber gloves both wearing respirators on our face due to the smelly moldy interior and it is nice and dark out. Everything seems to be going well. Made some creaking noises thinking drive shaft needs lubed up. Brakes were noisy all stuff you expect to hear from a car that has sit for a few years. We found out the power steering does not work.. Will have to investigate that. And we also found out the alternator does not work as we got stranded about 1/4 mile from home. Here we are in our get ups looking at the car and a nice lady pulls up to her house. She could not get inside fast enough. We walked home got the portable jumper (should have brought it with us to begin with) jumped the LC and drove home on jumper battery power. Have not noticed any leaks yet.. We set the timing to factory specs and put the battery on the charger. Looks like we have some more work to do but we are happy she is running. Hopefully she will run well for many more miles to come. Thanks Again to all the help here.. We could not have done it without everyone's help.. I hope from what I learned here over the last few weeks I can pass on to other members that need help.. And on that note here is the video of her coming to life after all these years. Now the fun begins ;>)