Orion: still popping out of gear! Lets form a club!!!
- Thread starter CruiserMax
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Personally I think if you start building the Orion with good parts with a new high/low collar and do the Poser step washers it will be ok. Mine is comming in just like that after the new year, will keep you guys uptodate.
/td
/td
Yeah… I thought about the case hardening thing but I didn’t know whether they did it to these gears or not. Makes sense… duh. You wouldn’t want to cut through the hardened layer on the dogs even if you could. Prolly only 10 thou thick or so. No good. Straight dogs until they design different gears, unless someone has the equipment to case harden stuff
fjwagon said:
I am not convinced that this is a valid issue, because there are a number of Orion transfer cases in service that are working without any problems at all....
With the pictures posted here I fail to see the difference in the dog tooth design on the Orion gears compared to stock Toyota Land Cruiser one-piece transfer case gears.
I would appreciate the folks in the know posting up on this. If I am missing something, please point it out.
THANKS!
-Steve Cramer
I am going to try and get over to chat with one of the engineers/machine shops that did alot of the Orion. He has personally assembled/disassembled many Prions throughout the design phase, he may be able to shed some light on the situation... Mabey this afternoon?
fjwagon
SILVER Star
Steve,
I appreciate you posting the pics and all the other need to know info. The next question is are you going to put a kit together for us less technically incline poor bastards who would like to put it together ourselves? I've taken apart and put back tegether several LC tcases but if there may be a problem putting an orion tegether I may just let you do it.
I appreciate you posting the pics and all the other need to know info. The next question is are you going to put a kit together for us less technically incline poor bastards who would like to put it together ourselves? I've taken apart and put back tegether several LC tcases but if there may be a problem putting an orion tegether I may just let you do it.
Poser said:
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No offense at all to any of the less "technically inclined", but at some point you just have to realize what is and is not within your grasp and experience level. If you don't have access to a good shop and precision tools, you've got to realize the limitations of the work you are able to accomplish. In this case obviously the appropriate torque wrenches, a dial indicator for backlash and runout, a set of calipers are the minimums. At the same time all of us learned somehow, and if you can be a bit ambitious with a project like this, combined with some patience and help from a resource like these boards, I think most people who have any mechanical experience and proficiency could take on a T-case rebuild. *OR*, you decide that you really don't want to learn THAT bad, and you pay somebody like Steve to do it! Just an observation.
Steve I am also very interested in what you've observed... that from what you've found, the OEM toy dogs are straight cut! The question then is where does all the 2 deg jabber from the Marlin guys play in? What T-case gears were THEY taking a pic of? Who is right????
Steve I am also very interested in what you've observed... that from what you've found, the OEM toy dogs are straight cut! The question then is where does all the 2 deg jabber from the Marlin guys play in? What T-case gears were THEY taking a pic of? Who is right????
greasysmitty said:
Those gears posted up in that thread were from a Toyota mini truck case(pickup and 4runner) and not a Land Cruiser one piece transfer case...
I am hoping that other people more in the know that me will post up.
-Steve
Pic posted by Trollhole on Posers pic thread also shows straight cut dogs from a 4spd case... no apparent taper. What would seem to be more likely as a potential "wear in" phenomenon for this type of dog is that the concave/internal splines on the shift collar would wear a little divit in the area where they contacted under load and after time the area that they contacted under coast conditions. This would rely on the collar consistantly carrying the load in the same place along the internal splines... any slipping out of gear would tend to mess up the wear in process. I have booty fabbed a drawing below. For those of you that have access to an old shift collar, do you see any of this type of wear pattern on the internal splines???
This wear pattern would help to keep the case in gear under load and coast, and would explain why the dog teeth on the gear are engineered so relatively small. As others have mentioned (and I think I've read somewhere in a mechanic manual), they DO cut the dogs to different width so that only a limited number are carrying the load at any on time, to help them "wear in" to one another... so I believe there is a wearing in process going on.
All this bullsH&$^@ng about gears is so much more fun than work
This wear pattern would help to keep the case in gear under load and coast, and would explain why the dog teeth on the gear are engineered so relatively small. As others have mentioned (and I think I've read somewhere in a mechanic manual), they DO cut the dogs to different width so that only a limited number are carrying the load at any on time, to help them "wear in" to one another... so I believe there is a wearing in process going on.
All this bullsH&$^@ng about gears is so much more fun than work
fjwagon
SILVER Star
Looks like I did offended someone. Those were not my intentions. 
. I Have rebuilt several engines and other mods using these boards and manuals I have accumelated over the years. I have yet had to take any of my 3 Land Cruisers to the Mechanic because I have not been able to fix it myself. And I do have most tools needed to do most installations and repairs. But yet I don't pretend to know everything. The post was geared more as a complement to Steve for all the work he put into this thread and others in regards to the orion tcase. Hope your day get better.
. I Have rebuilt several engines and other mods using these boards and manuals I have accumelated over the years. I have yet had to take any of my 3 Land Cruisers to the Mechanic because I have not been able to fix it myself. And I do have most tools needed to do most installations and repairs. But yet I don't pretend to know everything. The post was geared more as a complement to Steve for all the work he put into this thread and others in regards to the orion tcase. Hope your day get better.greasysmitty said:
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No... no... thats not what I meant at all! I guess I didn't word it right. I meant to be ENCOURAGING... like "you should try stuff that you haven't done before and just be patient and ask questions", not "leave it to the pros, dumbass". Sorry if you got the wrong impression fjw. My bust... Half the junk I do is the first time I've done it, and I've never had any problems! Heck, the first engine I ever rebuilt as a mechanic, I had gotten the job sorta by chance, they said: "you ever rebuilt an engine before?" and I kinda said... "uhhh.... sure...." (i.e. no, I never had done one from scratch) but I certainly knew how to wrench on stuff, how to read books and manuals, and how to ask the guys who REALLY knew and had the experience. Thats about all you need. Oh yeah, and some good tools!
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Ahhh sooooo....
From reading this post, it looks like the shift collars DO wear exactly this way... there are pics! Not so much on the coast side as the load side. BUT, you can clearly see how far the shift collar should be engaged, and the wear "divits", like in my booty diagram.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=27605&page=2&highlight=orion
From reading this post, it looks like the shift collars DO wear exactly this way... there are pics! Not so much on the coast side as the load side. BUT, you can clearly see how far the shift collar should be engaged, and the wear "divits", like in my booty diagram.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=27605&page=2&highlight=orion
greasysmitty said:Pic posted by Trollhole on Posers pic thread also shows straight cut dogs from a 4spd case... no apparent taper. What would seem to be more likely as a potential "wear in" phenomenon for this type of dog is that the concave/internal splines on the shift collar would wear a little divit in the area where they contacted under load and after time the area that they contacted under coast conditions. This would rely on the collar consistantly carrying the load in the same place along the internal splines... any slipping out of gear would tend to mess up the wear in process. I have booty fabbed a drawing below. For those of you that have access to an old shift collar, do you see any of this type of wear pattern on the internal splines???
This wear pattern would help to keep the case in gear under load and coast, and would explain why the dog teeth on the gear are engineered so relatively small. As others have mentioned (and I think I've read somewhere in a mechanic manual), they DO cut the dogs to different width so that only a limited number are carrying the load at any on time, to help them "wear in" to one another... so I believe there is a wearing in process going on.
All this bullsH&$^@ng about gears is so much more fun than work
treerootCO
Where are my keys?!
But, I think it will help to buy a new shift collar for two reasons. It will match/wear in better AND the new ones are thinner and less likely to get knocked into neutral by the gear.
So long as you can get it to wear in correctly, absolutely. I'll get a new one.
Here ya go folks....your Orion fixes....
Undercut high-speed gear.
Just got off the phone with Randy at Advance Adapters.
Advance Adapters is removing .100” from the face of the high-speed gear that touches/interferes with the shift collar, preventing the shift collar from staying in high range. Apparently, they have been doing this for a little while now, and when used in conjunction with the new shift rail, ball, spring and hex screw, and stepped thrust washers, it seems to have ended any issues that people were having with the high-low shift collar riding on the gear, preventing the ball in the shift fork assembly from fully seating in the shift rail, and permitting the gear to move and knock the case into neutral.
Also, as has been posted up in other threads, they are making a new shift rail, ball, spring, and brass hex screw to provide proper tension on the detent and shift fork assembly. They are also going to be sending along new stepped thrust washers in the new kits. These parts will be available to those who want them, from my understanding, free of charge.
If you take your case apart, and send them the high-speed gear, they will remove .100” off the face of the gear for you, again, from my understanding, free of charge.
Thank you Randy for all of your hard work with this project.
-Steve Cramer
Undercut high-speed gear.
Just got off the phone with Randy at Advance Adapters.
Advance Adapters is removing .100” from the face of the high-speed gear that touches/interferes with the shift collar, preventing the shift collar from staying in high range. Apparently, they have been doing this for a little while now, and when used in conjunction with the new shift rail, ball, spring and hex screw, and stepped thrust washers, it seems to have ended any issues that people were having with the high-low shift collar riding on the gear, preventing the ball in the shift fork assembly from fully seating in the shift rail, and permitting the gear to move and knock the case into neutral.
Also, as has been posted up in other threads, they are making a new shift rail, ball, spring, and brass hex screw to provide proper tension on the detent and shift fork assembly. They are also going to be sending along new stepped thrust washers in the new kits. These parts will be available to those who want them, from my understanding, free of charge.
If you take your case apart, and send them the high-speed gear, they will remove .100” off the face of the gear for you, again, from my understanding, free of charge.
Thank you Randy for all of your hard work with this project.
-Steve Cramer
Sweet..........Mine was due for it's 1 year overhaul & case repaint anyway 
