Orion: still popping out of gear! Lets form a club!!!

[treerootCO]

Are the problems people have mainly with high-power (V8's)? Or is it more of an engine braking problem (descending hills)?

I also really, really, really want one but am nervous about the popping out.

I'd be more concerned about it popping out descending a hill than applying power. I'm going to use a basically stock 2F motor in my FJ-40......

Mine is behind a stock 2F engine with about 60 compression on all the cylinders (she's a tired engine for sure). Only happens to me in Low gear going downhill with the engine holding me back. I don't believe a tight shifter would prevent it from coming out of gear. I have tried, and my passengers have tried, to hold it in gear when it tries to come out. No matter how hard you pull on the shifter, it will pop into neutral.

 

[missipboy]

mine is behind a v8 with plenty of horsepower and i have had no problems with it popping out. i machined the thrust washers before installing, so that may have helped.

 

[greasysmitty]

I would be putting it behind a ~ 150 hp Cummins (at max), so I’m not super worried about the overall strength of the unit. Torque numbers will definitely be pretty big, but not too much bigger than a middle of the road V-8. What I *am* worried about is what you just pointed out Treeroot – the disengaging on coasting thing. With the high compression of a diesel, any bad tendencies are only going to be exacerbated by the wicked compression braking.

Again it gets harder and harder for me to guess with precision without looking at one of these things, but Treeroot what you are talking about with the passenger trying to hold the thing in gear on coast – that sounds like could definitely be caused by all the axial slop/ backlash that you guys are saying that the gearsets have without this spacer/ washer mod to keep them in place. When you began coasting, the helical cut of the gears would tend to reverse the axial thrust between them, so if the driven gear was originally thrusted towards the shift collar, it would be thrusted away from the shift collar when coasting. With all the play in the gears and given the fact that some have said that the dog teeth are shorter/ there is less engagement on the replacement gears, I could see how this could totally pull the gear disengaged from the shift collar, and maybe the shift detent or some other restriction keeps you (or your passenger) from moving it any more towards the gear to keep it engaged. The whole idea behind the original factory cut of course being that you didn’t have to worry about any of these factors; the gears just stayed mated until you unloaded them and pulled them apart. Does this sound like a possibility? Do you have the “spacer mod” yet? Could you tell whether your passenger felt any force feeding back through the shift lever, as if his effort was trying to hold the two together but the force pushing the gears apart was just too great, or whether he had just hit some sort of positive stop and even when the shifter was held solidly there, there was no feedback force and the thing still just popped out of gear (because of the gears walking apart as described above)?

Maybe the thrust washer idea really takes care of most of the problem???

 

[Poser]

Maybe the thrust washer idea really takes care of most of the problem???

From the two people that have done this, and are operating thier trucks, it would seem to have something to do with it...since both have stated that it is no longer an issue, or was not one.

I would be putting it behind a ~ 150 hp Cummins (at max), so I’m not super worried about the overall strength of the unit.

From this post, I would then build a Dana 18, and be done with it....


If you are concerned about the strenght of the 18, get a 20, and put the 18 guts in it...will net you a larger counter shaft/needle bearings...


I know of many Dana 18 transfer cases that have lived, and still are living long lives behind a V8, without issue, and from what you have posted up on ppb about this build up, it does not sound like you are going to be needing 100:1 gearing in your 109 Land Rover anyhow.



Good luck!


-Steve

 

[treerootCO]

...Do you have the “spacer mod” yet? Could you tell whether your passenger felt any force feeding back through the shift lever, as if his effort was trying to hold the two together but the force pushing the gears apart was just too great, or whether he had just hit some sort of positive stop and even when the shifter was held solidly there, there was no feedback force and the thing still just popped out of gear (because of the gears walking apart as described above)?

Maybe the thrust washer idea really takes care of most of the problem???

I don't have the spacer mod yet. Maybe I'll have to send that Steve guy a nice ham or something

The force is too great to hold it in gear. I can take a video if you really want. As I get on and off the gas the lever moves forward and back. When it pops into neutral it is rather quick.

 

[Poser]

The whole idea behind the original factory cut of course being that you didn’t have to worry about any of these factors; the gears just stayed mated until you unloaded them and pulled them apart.

Since factory cases have popped out of gear for many years on people, it is hard to say if this is accurate.

 

[Poser]

I don't have the spacer mod yet. Maybe I'll have to send that Steve guy a nice ham or something

The force is too great to hold it in gear. I can take a video if you really want. As I get on and off the gas the lever moves forward and back. When it pops into neutral it is rather quick.

Mike-


Just plan a week trip over here, we can install the washers, and then go wheel the hell out of it....


Know of some pretty rugged terrain not too far from here that has worked well as a proving grounds for the last few years...


No ham required...

 

[treerootCO]

Total Est. Time: 13 hours, 3 minutes

Total Est. Distance: 899.96 miles

(tow rig is dead on the side of the road at the moment...stupid passlock, stupid Chevy )

 

[Poser]

What the HELL is passlock?

 

[greasysmitty]

Well crap, call me crazy… but that TOTALLY sounds like the gear backlash / lack of spacer issue Treeroot. I mean, if your stick is physically moving back and forth, it MUST be because the shift collar is being moved back and forth by the driven gear being thrusted back and forth. Hell, it would seem like the thrust washer would seriously help if not totally solve your problem then. If this was the case though, it would seem that ALL toy cases of this design, even factory, would have similar behavior w/ regard to the stick moving as you got on and off the gas (just less popping out because of the beveled dogs...). Is this the case?

Poser I got your PM and I appreciate the advice. I really just want something nice and reliable, but I tend to wheel with conservative technique, and I have heard of Dana 18’s holding up behind mild V-8’s too… so maybe one would be marginally acceptable. As long as it wasn’t too much of a “fusible link” in the drivetrain, I would totally run it. I’ve heard about combo-ing parts with a D20, but I don’t think this would do me any good for an offset rear output, would it? From what I found, there is no way to beef up an 18 with 20 parts and still have an offset rear output, since the 20 is a centered… or am I wrong? There is the 3.15 low kit from teramax for the 18, which would be OK for a roughly 60:1 crawl ratio… which wouldn’t be bad. I really just want something around 80:1 ish for sporadic slow, controlled crawling with lockers (not the primary use of the truck), but moreso for tractor like duties of moving trailers off road, pulling stumps and stuff… etc. I don’t need a sick low range, but I’d love something moderately lower than any stock setup.

If there’s just no way I can figure an offset rear case, there’s always the bail option of a beefy center output case. The propshaft should work fine, it will just be angled off to the side. The wheelbase is long enough that my gut feeling is that the angles won’t be too severe, especially with a CV. Vibration/ phase angles should have no problem… from that perspective its no different than a shaft running just fore and aft. I just love the look, the simplicity (maybe not, I guess), the extra protection of having both shafts tucked up on the passengers side. Its like many have said… just take rocks and stuff down the drivers side. I’ll go a long way to keep that Sals rear… I just like the offset too much.

 

[Poser]

but I tend to wheel with conservative technique, so maybe one would be marginally acceptable.

If this is a true statement, then it would be far more than marginally acceptable, even with a tera low gear set installed.



Good luck!


-Steve

 

[peesalot]

You mentioned reusing the shift collar , DO NOT , this was the first thing we all decided must be replaced . IMO use new collar.
Mine ( #100) is behind an sm420 with the old school A/A adapter that uses no spud shaft and has a bearing between tcase and tranny. The input gear walks a tiny bit ala treeroots problem( his adapter is diff.) but has not caused any issue. I used new collar .
As the miles go by it gets better , much . But , I do notice that after running rubicon in 4 lo all day that after going back to 2 wheel it popped out like 3 times before I got across dam , which is about 1/4 mile. After cooling down problem went away .



Does heat change anything as far as operation or is it just a matter of not frying the gears.????????

 

[mudnyreye]

orion problems

The first five trips to tellico, post orion install, it worked great. My last trip, the last 2 miles into tellico is downhill with a long series of water breaks (whoop de doos) when I reached the bottom I realized that I had no gears. I Figured the Xfer case popped into neutral. Underneath, I noticed that the Nut on the Xfer case linkage had come off. I replaced the nut and headed for camp. For the entire weekend every hard bump uphill or downhill the case would pop out. AAARRRRGH! I had heard stories, the curse of the dreaded orion hit. Back at my shop I did some investigating and discovered a dent/scratch on the underside of my tub just above the Xfer shift arm???. The case was hitting the bottom of my tub on xtreme rocks and hills. I have a 1-1/2" body lift. I figured that much movement indicated another problem in the drivetrain. Sure enough, I discovered blown front motor mounts. The mounts were the old disc style and I couldn't tell untill I lifted the motor with my engine hoist. Replaced the mounts with the newer rectangle ones and I have not had a problem since............just a thought.

 

[Poser]

What you have posted up here is the same thing that some people have posted up as being the reason thier tcase will not stay in gear. Linkage issues, along with broken, damaged or loose drivetrain mounts, as you have pointed out, have plauged many people over the years. Some have gone so far as to remove and replace the stock transfer case, with a "known good one", only to have the issue persist.


I would hope that the folks that are having issues with their case popping out of gear have eliminated these issues before posting up on thier Orion having issues.


-Steve

 

[greasysmitty]

OK - here's a question then. Is there anyone out there that has MADE the modifications talked about here (new parts, good detent operation, and installation of thrust washers to eliminate axial runout of gearsets) and can *STILL* say that their stuff pops of gear?

Cause that would be bad. But if 80% of all cases seem to be cured after these simple fixes, heeyyyyyyy

 

[FoYoChe]

I would be putting it behind a ~ 150 hp Cummins (at max), so I’m not super worried about the overall strength of the unit. Torque numbers will definitely be pretty big, but not too much bigger than a middle of the road V-8. What I *am* worried about is what you just pointed out Treeroot – the disengaging on coasting thing. With the high compression of a diesel, any bad tendencies are only going to be exacerbated by the wicked compression braking.

Just as a side note, without a exhaust brake, diesels really don't have much for compression braking. not like a gas motor anyway. They build pressure, but most "compression braking" comes from vacuum through a closed throttle body, diesels don't usually have throttle bodies. other than some strange things detroit did to it's blown and turboed motors

http://www.bankspower.com/tech_howexhaustbrakeworks.cfm

 

[65swb45]

[quote greasysmitty] If this was the case though, it would seem that ALL toy cases of this design, even factory, would have similar behavior w/ regard to the stick moving as you got on and off the gas (just less popping out because of the beveled dogs...). Is this the case?[/quote greasysmitty]

This was exactly my point to Randy at AA two weeks ago. I have been rebuilding these transfer cases for 15 years now, and I have been disappointed from DAY 1 with the factory thrust tolerances of the output gears on the output shaft. That is also why I am SO confident that this will cure the problem that I put my money down for one now.

If I wasn't someone who regularly rebuilt Landcruiser transfer cases, I might also have made the mistaken assumption that it was ok to re-use the factory tolerances when machining my gears.

Just one more instance where assuming makes an .......................

 

[peesalot]

Mark , me no gots no stinking spacer , not on input gear like Treeroot or between hi/lo on output shaft and mine has stopped popping.

And , I found that my linkage was so loose that the bungee I have don't do @&@&@&@&.
Just gotta break em in.

 

[greasysmitty]

OK… so maybe this problem isn’t as wide reaching as I would have initially thought. Any feeling (especially from people who regularly deal with these cases like you mark) about whether you could hand broach a slight taper on the replacement gears with a jewlers file to help with the breaking in of the dogs, if you had some sort of a jig like I mentioned? Or would this not even be physically possible (or maybe just a waste of time)…

 

[greasysmitty]

TTT -

anybody come up with any fantabulous breakthroughs with their case? I am seriously looking at buying one... like real soon. Want to get my project started in earnest over the holidays. I'm still trying to figure out whether you could do some hand work on the dog teeth of the new gears... is there enough space to get in there with a file? In the pictures on page 1 or 2 you can see definite space between the row of dog teeth and the gear face... but I don't think these are orion gears. Pics on AA install page do not show the new gears up close. Some minor tweaking of the new gears... machining the spacer... new parts... and I think it could come together with no problems...