O R I O N (8 Viewers)

[mccaleb77]

For the Orion professionals: would/could the angle of this shifting rod cause or aid in the t-case popping out of gear? Would it be better if it was less of an angle? I’m not an engineer, just made me curious after reading some things with steering angles and wondering if this may be part of my issue I’m having. Does someone NOT having issues have a photo of their linkage to share?

 

[Ranger Jeff]

For the Orion professionals: would/could the angle of this shifting rod cause or aid in the t-case popping out of gear? Would it be better if it was less of an angle? I’m not an engineer, just made me curious after reading some things with steering angles and wondering if this may be part of my issue I’m having. Does someone NOT having issues have a photo of their linkage to share?
View attachment 2839350

I don’t have a photo, but mine looks very similar to yours. My popping out issue turned out to be chamfered shift detents (kit came from AA with it) that George at Valley Hybrids didn’t notice when he assembled. He swapped it for older style square shouldered detents which solved the problem. I suspect AA thought the chamfered shoulders would make shifting easier but it is just enough for shift ball to ride out of the detent on it’s own under load. With our shifter setups, it’s pretty easy shifting with the square shoulder so chamfered is a negative.

 

[65swb45]

For the Orion professionals: would/could the angle of this shifting rod cause or aid in the t-case popping out of gear? Would it be better if it was less of an angle? I’m not an engineer, just made me curious after reading some things with steering angles and wondering if this may be part of my issue I’m having. Does someone NOT having issues have a photo of their linkage to share?
View attachment 2839350

As I said two weeks ago, the shifters only function is supposed to be to MOVE the range selecter, NOT RETAIN it. In other words, As long as the lever is pressure neutral, it should not be part of the the equation.

 

[mccaleb77]

As I said two weeks ago, the shifters only function is supposed to be to MOVE the range selecter, NOT RETAIN it. In other words, As long as the lever is pressure neutral, it should not be part of the the equation.

Thank you sir. I did read that message from you.

 

[peesalot]

To answer your question, if the spring detent pressure was light, & your shifter is heavy, loose, it could aide in the popping out of gear issue.

 

[archie73]

I don’t have a photo, but mine looks very similar to yours. My popping out issue turned out to be chamfered shift detents (kit came from AA with it) that George at Valley Hybrids didn’t notice when he assembled. He swapped it for older style square shouldered detents which solved the problem. I suspect AA thought the chamfered shoulders would make shifting easier but it is just enough for shift ball to ride out of the detent on it’s own under load. With our shifter setups, it’s pretty easy shifting with the square shoulder so chamfered is a negative.

So are you using the stock shift rail fix your issue? I’ll be pulling mine this winter and I’d like to order anything needed before hand.

 

[Ranger Jeff]

So are you using the stock shift rail fix your issue? I’ll be pulling mine this winter and I’d like to order anything needed before hand.

The shift rail in mine has squared shoulders, which I do believe is stock. George said the chamfered rail came from AA, so he grabbed a squared one from his spare parts bin, which were all squared.

That said, I think Peesalot has a good point about the strength of the detent spring that could contribute to the issue as well.

I do know that the squared rail solved my issue and has been put through the paces so I’m fairly confident it won’t recur.

 

[archie73]

The shift rail in mine has squared shoulders, which I do believe is stock. George said the chamfered rail came from AA, so he grabbed a squared one from his spare parts bin, which were all squared.

That said, I think Peesalot has a good point about the strength of the detent spring that could contribute to the issue as well.

I do know that the squared rail solved my issue and has been put through the paces so I’m fairly confident it won’t recur.

I’m pretty sure I saved all the parts from my original case. Hopefully I can find the rail and spring.

 

[archie73]

So winter is upon us and the magchloride is on the roads, so time to do long over due repairs. I got the Orion out today and onto the bench. The offending bits:

As a refresher, I have the same problem as others of not holding lo range when coasting. In addition, mine is popping out of high range at highway speed when I take my foot off the gas, but leave it in gear. This can be very exciting at times. My case and gears are a year or two old and I (for better or worse) built it up using AA’s instructions. From this thread, I’ve learned the common theme in fixing the issue is related to the shift fork or rail.
To my untrained eye the AA&OEM shift forks and rails look similar with minor differences, but nothing I would consider detrimental. The AA fork is clearances for the 4:1 gear and the oem isn’t, so I stuck with the AA unit. The AA shift rail has a detent for the set screw (case), but otherwise looked like the OEM piece. The indents looked exactly the same in size and orientation. I had thought maybe the indents were maybe slightly out of orientation, but I couldn’t find a difference. Since others had pointed to the oem shift rail as superior, I put it back in. In my case I think either would have worked.
The real difference I could find was in the spring, ball and set bolt for the spring. (I’m pretty sure I didn’t mix the parts up, but I can’t be sure). The springs- the AA(silver) one seemed a mm or two longer the the OEM(black). Balls- one was slightly bigger(AA) ~1/2mm. The set bolt- here it’s easy to see the difference: AA uses a brass bolt and OEM uses a set screw. So the brass screw only goes in so far and might not go deep enough to hold the gear. While the set screw can apply more like pressure.
To my eye, this seems like the solution the problem: the taller spring, bigger ball and the Toyota set screw pushing further into shift fork. Cycling the shifter shaft on the bench seemed to produce nice firm shifts. I’m not positive it’ll fix the issue, but seemed reassuring.
Does this sound like a winning solution? The Tcase is still on the bench and likely will through the holidays, so I can still easily change out the parts.

This is how far the set screw is in the shaft:

Is ~1/4” to much insertion? It’s below the cotter pin, but the CP still acts as a fail safe. I was doing the insertion by what felt firm. If this is ok, I’ll need to loctite the set screw.

This picture just illustrates the difference in set screws/bolts.

 

[65swb45]

The AA ‘bolt’ is more accurately referred to as a cap screw. I am reasonably confident that the cap screw is not an off-the-shelf item, but a custom made part, with thread depth of a predetermined depth by AA based on, among other things, spring rate of the spring they provide.

What did the arc of your old fork look like?

 

[mccaleb77]

So winter is upon us and the magchloride is on the roads, so time to do long over due repairs. I got the Orion out today and onto the bench. The offending bits:View attachment 2865494
As a refresher, I have the same problem as others of not holding lo range when coasting. In addition, mine is popping out of high range at highway speed when I take my foot off the gas, but leave it in gear. This can be very exciting at times. My case and gears are a year or two old and I (for better or worse) built it up using AA’s instructions. From this thread, I’ve learned the common theme in fixing the issue is related to the shift fork or rail.
To my untrained eye the AA&OEM shift forks and rails look similar with minor differences, but nothing I would consider detrimental. The AA fork is clearances for the 4:1 gear and the oem isn’t, so I stuck with the AA unit. The AA shift rail has a detent for the set screw (case), but otherwise looked like the OEM piece. The indents looked exactly the same in size and orientation. I had thought maybe the indents were maybe slightly out of orientation, but I couldn’t find a difference. Since others had pointed to the oem shift rail as superior, I put it back in. In my case I think either would have worked.
The real difference I could find was in the spring, ball and set bolt for the spring. (I’m pretty sure I didn’t mix the parts up, but I can’t be sure). The springs- the AA(silver) one seemed a mm or two longer the the OEM(black). Balls- one was slightly bigger(AA) ~1/2mm. The set bolt- here it’s easy to see the difference: AA uses a brass bolt and OEM uses a set screw. So the brass screw only goes in so far and might not go deep enough to hold the gear. While the set screw can apply more like pressure.
To my eye, this seems like the solution the problem: the taller spring, bigger ball and the Toyota set screw pushing further into shift fork. Cycling the shifter shaft on the bench seemed to produce nice firm shifts. I’m not positive it’ll fix the issue, but seemed reassuring.
Does this sound like a winning solution? The Tcase is still on the bench and likely will through the holidays, so I can still easily change out the parts.

This is how far the set screw is in the shaft:
View attachment 2865492Is ~1/4” to much insertion? It’s below the cotter pin, but the CP still acts as a fail safe. I was doing the insertion by what felt firm. If this is ok, I’ll need to loctite the set screw.

This picture just illustrates the difference in set screws/bolts.

View attachment 2865332

View attachment 2865333

View attachment 2865493

The most I’ve learned from this thread is don’t ask questions.

 

[archie73]

The AA ‘bolt’ is more accurately referred to as a cap screw. I am reasonably confident that the cap screw is not an off-the-shelf item, but a custom made part, with thread depth of a predetermined depth by AA based on, among other things, spring rate of the spring they provide.

What did the arc of your old fork look like?

Thanks for the terminology, I was grasping at my name for it. I imagine you are spot on about that cap screw setting. Unfortunately, I can’t say it’s providing stellar performance. My theory here is that it isn’t providing enough spring pressure to keep the ball in place. Now I’m not an expert in these issues, but it seems like the oem design allows for more adjustment.
When I was playing with the assembly and depth of the set screw, I did wonder if I would damage anything by increasing the pressure on the spring & ball. Since it’s not part of the rotating assembly, I assumed it wouldn’t hurt anything. I’m open to other ideas though. Especially, with the case on bench still.
Here’s some pics to help explain:
AA on top

Im not sure why the wear pattern is only on the top of the AA “fingers”
OEM on top this time

AA bottom

Silver spring set is AA

 

[archie73]

The most I’ve learned from this thread is don’t ask questions.

Unfortunately, I’m not that sure of my abilities, so I guess I’m open to suggestions.
In that realm - did you get an answer to your question anywhere else?

For the Orion professionals: would/could the angle of this shifting rod cause or aid in the t-case popping out of gear? Would it be better if it was less of an angle? I’m not an engineer, just made me curious after reading some things with steering angles and wondering if this may be part of my issue I’m having. Does someone NOT having issues have a photo of their linkage to share?
View attachment 2839350

Part of this project is a twinstick to get the slop out of my linkage. I’m open to learning from your setup before I start dabbing mine up.

 

[Ranger Jeff]

Unfortunately, I’m not that sure of my abilities, so I guess I’m open to suggestions.
In that realm - did you get an answer to your question anywhere else?

Part of this project is a twinstick to get the slop out of my linkage. I’m open to learning from your setup before I start dabbing mine up.

I’m by no means an expert, but it looks like your detents on the AA rail are slightly chamfered. This was definitely the problem with mine. My symptoms were just as you described and steadily getting worse. As I mentioned, George at Valley Hybrids replaced it with OEM and solved my issue 100%. Give him a call or PM?

 

[peesalot]

Can you show a pic of the shift rails from the side, curious as to the height of the peaks between detents, the bottom rail looks to have a bit more material there and also if see thru the detent so we can see if they have the same "U" shape. FWIW the pic with the slotted screw for spring tension should have a cotter pin to retain it. Try running it down just til it won't shift, then up a bit. You get a good idea in what the travel and effect of that adjustment is. With the stock ball and spring IIRC when set just off lock up the screw slot is below the cotter pin holes so you can't get the pin thru the slot but above the screw so it doesnt back out.

 

[archie73]

Can you show a pic of the shift rails from the side, curious as to the height of the peaks between detents, the bottom rail looks to have a bit more material there and also if see thru the detent so we can see if they have the same "U" shape. FWIW the pic with the slotted screw for spring tension should have a cotter pin to retain it. Try running it down just til it won't shift, then up a bit. You get a good idea in what the travel and effect of that adjustment is. With the stock ball and spring IIRC when set just off lock up the screw slot is below the cotter pin holes so you can't get the pin thru the slot but above the screw so it doesnt back out.

I apologize I forgot to take a picture ofvthe rails side by side, but they mic’d out as identical .36” indent with a .36 width at the top of the machining. Since we’re measuring things here’s some other stats
Spring height .91” & .89”
Ball diam.39” & .37”
( I don’t use a caliper for living, so take these measurements at your own risk)

Now eye balling the ball in the rail and looking for the light to pass through the gap- the large ball in the AA unit had the least amount of light passing through. I know it’s not the best way to measure, but that’s how I did it.
Next up I tried different rail and ball combinations in the transfer case. To get an idea of the force needed to switch gears, I used a digital torque wrench on the shifter lever.

With set screw threaded in .2” the needed torque is as follows:
AA rail w/ lg ball- 11ft/#
AA rail w/ sm ball- 8ft/#
Toy rail w/ lg ball- 5.5ft/#
Toy rail w/ sm ball- 5ft/#

So it seems I’ll get the most holding power from the AA/lg ball combo. Full insertion of the set screw is around .30 and the shifter doesn’t want to move at that point. Currently, I have the depth at .28 and the shifter needs 12.5ft/# to move between modes.
So is there another area of the Tcase I need to look into? My gear sets look good and the shift forks didn’t look any different that I could determine.

 

[peesalot]

FWIW, run it thru a few shifts and check rail, I had mine set really tight and it didn't play nice with those thin peaks on the rail.

 

[JohnnyOshow22]

Hey guys, trying to get my new to me 40 ready for cruise moab. Wheeling it this past summer it would pop out of low on really steep decents but would never pop out of gear when climbing. I did not build this truck, my late friend Bob did and unfortunately I can't ask him questions about it. I do know that it has all of the updated parts, shift rail, stepped washer etc, thanks to this thread here. It was installed in 2014 and the linkages look like they are fine/engage all the way and it does not pop out of gear in high range. What all would you check next? Thanks

 

[archie73]

FWIW, run it thru a few shifts and check rail, I had mine set really tight and it didn't play nice with those thin peaks on the rail.

I ended up lightening up on the spring compression. It was to much on the new twin stick setup. Hopefully, this will work as I’m getting tired of pulling it in and out.

Hey guys, trying to get my new to me 40 ready for cruise moab. Wheeling it this past summer it would pop out of low on really steep decents but would never pop out of gear when climbing. I did not build this truck, my late friend Bob did and unfortunately I can't ask him questions about it. I do know that it has all of the updated parts, shift rail, stepped washer etc, thanks to this thread here. It was installed in 2014 and the linkages look like they are fine/engage all the way and it does not pop out of gear in high range. What all would you check next? Thanks

I’m no expert on anything, but for me it was the shift rail, indent ball & spring pressure. I think…. I’ve adjusted mine so it gets nice firm shifts on the bench. Hopefully I’ll have it back in place Monday or Tuesday for a test drive.

 

[matzell]

I think it was the fork. I asked AA on friday about it and he said they got it straight. On another note, I wheeled mine all day today, drove on the road, the trail, up and down the mountain and never had the first problem with mine I did modify the AA fork when I put it together two years ago.