My Hail Mary - need help diagnosing this shimmy / vibration (1 Viewer)

[trudd]

I’ve put off writing this thread for months, because I believed the answer was already out there. But after 100+ hours of research/wrenching/losing sleep, here we are. ’09 LX, 169k miles. Southern car, no rust. Family daily driver, state camping machine, and occasional 4x4 roads in remote NM.

Yes, this is another vibration thread. There are many like it, but this one is mine.


The Vibration
It’s an overall cabin shimmy when driving. It’s kind of intermittent, though I feel it to a varying degree of intensity 90% of the time. When accelerating, when coasting, in Drive and Neutral, on both surface roads and highways. Probably most obvious from 20-65mph, but I swear sometimes I can feel it when coming to a stop.

• vibrations are especially obvious on smooth roads
• feels like they get worse on bumpy surface roads. As if there is some kind of secondary motion at play. It’s hard to say what is just normal rough road behavior, vs. compounded reaction of something else at play
• Vibrations are felt in my seat and passenger areas. Does not feel like it’s coming from the steering wheel.
• sometimes I don’t notice the shimmy after a cold start, but it eventually comes back on a long drive, or perhaps the next start up.

Tires
By now, everyone is thinking “tires!” I’m running Michelin Defender LTX 285/50r20 on stock rims. 1 year old, around 16k miles on them

• I’m religious on balancing. 5-tire rotation every time.
• I’ve had 3 different tire shops take a stab at balancing them recently (yes, road force). Two different shops in the past week alone
• the tires are wearing well, as expected. No cupping. Car has never sat long enough for flat spots.
• rims were inspected - no bends or defects found

Services
This is like the setup to a bad joke… My regular Toyota Indy mechanic, a Mud-Member LC Specialist, and the Lexus dealership have all seen the car in the past 4 months.

• Both indy shops helped me with normal maintenance items (like brakes) while keeping an eye out for obvious vibration causes. Nothing stood out to them
• Unfortunately, the car was driving extremely well when I bit the bullet and dropped it off at Lexus last week. Terrible timing. The vibration came back on the drive back from Lexus, of course. They recommended balancing tires and had no other recommendations. $150 wasted.

AHC
I replaced all 4 accumulators timed with a total fluid exchange 4 months ago. Rear DS globe had failed, but otherwise the components and shocks look good. I did chase air bubbles for a bit, but now AHC performs as expected.

• While I think AHC is in good shape, I’m not ruling it out. I do have a feeling that AHC is sometimes affected by trying to counteract the vibrations. Like it’ll take a bump in a weird way, or more stiff than the last time I drove over the same bump. Hard to know.

Drivetrain
Neglected to grease zerks since I bought the car 2 yrs ago at 137k. Unsure the last time they were done.

• Two months ago, before I greased joints and splines, I found play in the U-Joints. Primarily the 2 coming out of the transfer case - especially to the front driveshaft.
  • All 4 U-Joints were replaced. Driving felt tighter, but the shimmy persisted.
• Transfer case shifts into 4Lo and Center Diff work

Front End Suspension
No work done by me, and no work in the limited dealer history. Everything looks original.

• Multiple shops have done the 12-6 o’clock and 9-3 o’clock wheel shake, inspected bushings and ball joints and have not recommended service.
• No leaking shocks
• I have no service history on wheel bearings

Brakes
All new OEM rotors and pads installed in the spring. Brakes are great, but did not solve the shimmies.


Fluids
Transmission, front diff, rear diff, and transfer case were all drained and filled 31k miles ago.


Misc

• replaced spark plugs last week, for the first time maybe ever
  • @bloc called out motor mounts as a potential issue when I had trouble removing the Cylinder #7 coil pack, which doesn’t seem to have bothered anybody else: RTH: coil pack interference on driver side - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/rth-coil-pack-interference-on-driver-side.1317514/
• recently cleaned MAF
• I’ve detailed an interesting Limp Mode After Long Idle problem in this thread: Limp Mode after long idle - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/limp-mode-after-long-idle.1316476/
  • You can also see a video my AC compressor cycling on/off in post #16 there. I’m having pressures tested later this week - likely just low on freon
  • @TeCKis300 had some thoughts about the fuel pump here, too
• known valley plate leak. Feeding it coolant until I can get this shimmy solved

I want to believe it’s something simple. Where do you think I should start?

I'm taking it in this week to another indy shop for diagnosis. I have one more shot at getting this fixed before before heading out on a camping trip next week. I don’t want to spend 1,500 miles thinking about a damn shimmy instead of hard earned time with my family. Thanks!

 

[Tex68w]

I can relate, I went through six different re-balancing scenarios in a 3,000 mile period to get to the bottom of my shimmy issue. Ultimately Discount Tire replaced my Ko2's that were only 6 months old with 11K miles on them. I still feel more of the road corrugations and variances than I think I should but the shimmy/wobble is all but gone. I am starting to wonder if my super light wheels might be to blame or possibly the combo of these particular wheels with this particular tire might not play well together. At the end of the day I think I really need to have my alignment redone by a competent shop that specializes in these particular vehicles with lifts and SPC UCA's.

In your case I'd be very interested in the drive shaft especially if you had an issue prior.

 

[bloc]

Kindof a longshot but possible.. Verify that your driveshafts are both clocked correctly. The ears for the spider joints on both ends of each shaft should be aligned. The spiders are a bit more complex.. basically the one on each end should point roughly 45° away from the zerk for the slip yoke. Or at least I think I remember it that way. Note that this being incorrect will impact the rear shaft much more than the front due to operating angles.

And yes I'd have the motor mounts verified. If the engine is sagging it throws your driveline angles out.

Do you trust the shop that did the u-joints? Were they factory? They are not the same as other manufacturers, and aren't easy to change and get right. Requires quite a bit of finesse and patience, and in my experience someone that really thinks through the process.

 

[trudd]

Kindof a longshot but possible.. Verify that your driveshafts are both clocked correctly. The ears for the spider joints on both ends of each shaft should be aligned. The spiders are a bit more complex.. basically the one on each end should point roughly 45° away from the zerk for the slip yoke. Or at least I think I remember it that way. Note that this being incorrect will impact the rear shaft much more than the front due to operating angles.

And yes I'd have the motor mounts verified. If the engine is sagging it throws your driveline angles out.

Do you trust the shop that did the u-joints? Were they factory? They are not the same as other manufacturers, and aren't easy to change and get right. Requires quite a bit of finesse and patience, and in my experience someone that really thinks through the process.

Thanks @bloc - appreciate the response

The only way to change the clocking is to pull it apart at the slip joint and reassemble without indexing, correct? If so, I can’t imagine that happening at this shop. OEM u-joints were used.

Re: “pointing a spider” - do you mean the zerk on the spider should point 45° away from the slip joint zerk? My 1.5 banana mechanic brain is on display here.

Copy you on motor mounts. I’ll do the driveway test of mashing on the brakes while revving slightly in Drive to look for movement.

 

[nwfl4runner]

Thanks @bloc - appreciate the response

The only way to change the clocking is to pull it apart at the slip joint and reassemble without indexing, correct? If so, I can’t imagine that happening at this shop. OEM u-joints were used.

Re: “pointing a spider” - do you mean the zerk on the spider should point 45° away from the slip joint zerk? My 1.5 banana mechanic brain is on display here.

Copy you on motor mounts. I’ll do the driveway test of mashing on the brakes while revving slightly in Drive to look for movement.

Was going to say check driveshaft like @bloc said. Do you have a driveshaft shop near you? It’s cheap to have them check and balance if need be

 

[TeCKis300]

Great write-up. As I was reading through it, many thoughts were systematically addressed as you detailed out what you had done. Good job!

From your other thread, you described the car going into limp mode after long idles. Is that what drove you to replace the coil pack? I think this symptom is key to your continued intermittent vibration issues. In my mind, I'm pretty confident a coil pack fault would result in a CEL as the ECU closely monitors that and I don't think you were getting that? Problems on the accessory belt like A/C also wouldn't likely create limp, but could create vibration.

I would still encourage checking the fuel pressure. It's an easy 10 minutes test with a $30 tool. Even though it was "negotiated" to affect 2013+ model years, the actual fuel pump issue is likely broader and has been a systemic issue across wide swaths of cars and brands.

P0171: System too Lean (Fuel Trim)

Working through this and could use the hive minds support. P0171: System too Lean (Fuel Trim). Also P0300: Random/mulitple Cylinder misfire detected. Multiple specific cylinder misfires P030x. Symptoms: In diagnostics after getting home. LT fuel trim on both banks at idle are high. +15 and...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[bloc]

Thanks @bloc - appreciate the response

The only way to change the clocking is to pull it apart at the slip joint and reassemble without indexing, correct? If so, I can’t imagine that happening at this shop. OEM u-joints were used.

Re: “pointing a spider” - do you mean the zerk on the spider should point 45° away from the slip joint zerk? My 1.5 banana mechanic brain is on display here.

Copy you on motor mounts. I’ll do the driveway test of mashing on the brakes while revving slightly in Drive to look for movement.

Correct, I actually meant the zerks should be oriented that way. A picture from the FSM does a better job explaining than I do.

Yes the only way to impact clocking is pulling it apart, but unless you bought the vehicle new you have no clue what was done in the past. If you trust the shop that did the joints they should have addressed this.



Perhaps ironically when I was digging into the FSM to get the above picture the "problem symptoms table" for the "front driveshaft" (what we call the CVs) was.. not comprehensive. It basically goes like "symptom: front wheel shimmy" = "problem area: front driveshaft (worn)" To be clear I don't think that's what is going on here.. but IMO it highlights these things can be tough to nail down. As I said, I believe driveline is a longshot here, but not too hard to inspect so your time investment is minimal.

I agree with Teckis that the ECU should pick up on an ignition problem.

 

[Sandroad]

I see from this thread and your limp mode thread that you put the Defenders on. Did you have the vibration with the previous set?

 

[trudd]

Great write-up. As I was reading through it, many thoughts were systematically addressed as you detailed out what you had done. Good job!

From your other thread, you described the car going into limp mode after long idles. Is that what drove you to replace the coil pack? I think this symptom is key to your continued intermittent vibration issues. In my mind, I'm pretty confident a coil pack fault would result in a CEL as the ECU closely monitors that and I don't think you were getting that? Problems on the accessory belt like A/C also wouldn't likely create limp, but could create vibration.

I would still encourage checking the fuel pressure. It's an easy 10 minutes test with a $30 tool. Even though it was "negotiated" to affect 2013+ model years, the actual fuel pump issue is likely broader and has been a systemic issue across wide swaths of cars and brands.

P0171: System too Lean (Fuel Trim)

Working through this and could use the hive minds support. P0171: System too Lean (Fuel Trim). Also P0300: Random/mulitple Cylinder misfire detected. Multiple specific cylinder misfires P030x. Symptoms: In diagnostics after getting home. LT fuel trim on both banks at idle are high. +15 and...

forum.ih8mud.com

Thanks!

I didn’t replace coil packs - just plugs. The only time I’ve observed the AC clutch issue was upon first startup after replacing plugs (and reconnecting battery). To bring the info here: my front AC and cool box operate fine. Rear AC blows warm, which indicates low Freon. The vibrations are constant and don’t operate on an interval like the AC clutch video. I believe I’ve turned the AC off when driving and vibrations were still present.

Copy you fuel pressure test.

 

[trudd]

I see from this thread and your limp mode thread that you put the Defenders on. Did you have the vibration with the previous set?

we road-tripped 5,000 miles immediately after installing defenders. No vibration present.

I didn’t have vibration with the previous Latitudes. Replaced those due to inner west

 

[trudd]

Is there any chance this could be gear oil related? Nobody has observed any kind of leaking. I don’t hear whines. It’s not old, though everything is right at the 30 K interval.

 

[ttrmike]

Try TSB L-SB-0022-09 (08-09 LX) or T-SB-0071-09 (08-09 LC) maybe?

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I would also look at engine and transmission mounts, and front differential mount bushings.

I thought that there was also a service bulletien for front differential/driveline vibration but I cant find that one at the moment.

 

[TheGrrrrr]

I don't think I would do anything else until tried a different set of tires. If I'm reading this correctly the vibration has only persisted with your current set of tires? No amount of balancing and inspection can rule out differences/defects in the rubber or manufacturing. Even swapping in the spare for a few dozen miles at each corner might identify a problem tire. However you do it, I think you need to eliminate the tires as a source and that can only be done with different tires.

 

[trudd]

I don't think I would do anything else until tried a different set of tires. If I'm reading this correctly the vibration has only persisted with your current set of tires? No amount of balancing and inspection can rule out differences/defects in the rubber or manufacturing. Even swapping in the spare for a few dozen miles at each corner might identify a problem tire. However you do it, I think you need to eliminate the tires as a source and that can only be done with different tires.

Funny you mention that - I have and forgot to mention it.

I recently acquired an ‘07 Tundra work truck and installed new 255/70/18 Bridgestone Duellers. I swapped the wheels to the LX to see if that resolved the vibration, and it did not (though the ride did feel more supple overall)

 

[trudd]

As my luck has it, I was on my way to visit @aljollano and the car was vibrating consistently for over 20 miles... until the vibrations stopped 1.5 miles from his shop I told him I feel like that guy in Twilight Zone who saw the thing on the wing.

Couldn't recreate vibrations on the test drive either, but noticed a front driveshaft shimmy once we got it in the lift. This view is from the DS, so the front of the LX is to the left.



Both driveshafts are pulled and heading to get balance checked.

 

[TLC2013]

Unrelated to your vibration issue, check out the pink residue at the 9 second mark. Looks like dried pink coolant on your bellhousing from the fairly common coolant Valley leak.

 

[trudd]

Unrelated to your vibration issue, check out the pink residue at the 9 second mark. Looks like dried pink coolant on your bellhousing from the fairly common coolant Valley leak.

Yep! Good eye. It's a valley plate leak that I will fix once the vibrations are addressed

 

[trudd]

One more video. Time was of the essence to get driveshafts removed and over to another shop, so didn't have a ton of time to dig into this observation. Rear driver side wheel had a small bit of wobble. The rear PS had a smaller amount of wobble.



From what I gather, this could be a number of things and requires further investigation. There were no special sounds that stood out. It seemed like the wheel was also wobbling - not just the tire. Once the car is put back together, I can swap on the spare to confirm that this isn't a bad tire/wheel.

More digging needed, but these threads turned up on a quick search:

• Rear axle bearing change - I found this thread by @bloc that I will be reading later to educate myself about rear axles
• 2008 Land Cruiser bent axle shaft? (post #7) - this seems to be an extreme example of wheel wobble. Unfortunately the thread was left unresolved and OP hasn't been around in years

Given that this is a semi-intermittent issue (that only disappears when en route to a mechanic), I'm not focused on possible tire/wheel imbalance yet.

Are rear axle issues somehow intermittent? Or is this within tolerance and I should focus on the driveshaft wobble?

 

[2014 LEX 570 GA]

Following as I have a similar issue that seems to be intermittent but always fades above 65/70 mph

 

[trudd]

Small update!

Stars aligned and I got the truck back this evening.

Tech who balanced the driveshafts said they were both off center. The front one was off by 0.015 (I don’t know what this means) and they were able to bring it back into tolerance with heat treatment.

I didn’t get numbers on the rear shaft, but I did notice some additional weights were tacked on.

Initial impressions are that there is a positive difference. No middle cabin shimmy on acceleration, and did not feel the rear end shimmy on smoother sections of highway as before.

Keep in mind, the symptoms disappeared moments before arriving at the cruiser shop, so I’ll be paying close attention to variations in ride quality as I get more miles in.

Luckily, the trip is saved so I’ll have 1,500 miles of data to think about.

Big shoutout to @aljollano for all the help! If you’re in central Texas, he’s your guy.

I’ll update again next week.