Mud Tires poor on Ice??

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This is a rare issue for socal but I asked about it in another thread as I was thinking of hitting some snow this winter (thanks for starting this topic, Romer- good one) and I always thought MTR/MT type tires would not be good on ice/snow roads.

This is kind of important as the road up to Big Bear could be deadly with slipping on ice... my snow driving is SO infrequent that a 2nd set of tires is totally a waste. Maybe invest in some chains... anyway,

Bajataco (I think Norcal Doug too?) siped the center lugs only on the MTR's to prevent chunking off the the side lugs. Maybe that is an option for compromise...? I'm thinking of doing this before I hit the snow.

Factory siped MT tires (like the Toyo or Cooper) is so minimal, better than nothing but would it really help in ice?
 
Just to add one thing that nobody has really mentioned (Sumotoy has eluded to it indirectly), but there is also the issue of how different tires break loose in snow and ice. MT tires will break loose without warning and are very hard to bring back in, while a dedicated snow tire will progressively let go and come back.
 
I agree the Blizzaks are good, we ran them on a Zamboni in place of studded and boy was I Surprised! Never would thought they had a chance against a studded tire. For bigger sizes I would most def say BFGs M/T are dangerous in snowy and icy conditions. Had 35's for three years. Hard rubber compound and Big lugs with no siping.

IMHO locking the center diff keeps the truck really drive like it is in 4WD! It keeps me from locking up front or rear axles/brakes...they all brake more equally. Also tracks straighter when braking descending mountain passes on snow.

However, it does have a drawback. When taking tight turns especially at slower speeds the driveline can bind and cause tires to break loose.
 
Has anyone tried these?

http://greendiamondtire.com/ (New, sizes up to 31")

d-mud.jpg


http://www.high-tec-retreading.com/diamond.html (Retreads, sizes up to 36")

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denman4.jpg


It looks to me like a replica of those two. The top picture is a Dunlop Radial Mud Rover (the one on the left) and the bottom one is a Buckshot Maxxis Mudder.
 
IMHO locking the center diff keeps the truck really drive like it is in 4WD! It keeps me from locking up front or rear axles/brakes...they all brake more equally. Also tracks straighter when braking descending mountain passes on snow.

However, it does have a drawback. When taking tight turns especially at slower speeds the driveline can bind and cause tires to break loose.

that is interesting and a good tip- I will keep this in mind!
 
On hard packed snow on typical traveled plowed roads, it's all about siping - the biting edges as mentioned. Also as mentioned, moderen snow tires keep snow in them because snow sticks better to snow. MT tires throw it.

On ice, however, it's a different matter. This info comes to me from a former track trainer at the Steamboat Winter Driving School:

When you drive on ice in normal temps, the pressure of the tread blocks creates heat and a thin layer of water under the contact patch. At warmer temps it is worsened. Modern ice/snow tires use greater surface areas to reduce the pressure per square inch. Seems counterintuitive, eh? Anyhow, the larger surface area in contact with the ice, plus the rubber compounds that remain soft at low temps provide the superior traction of winter-specific tires. Even better than studded and siped traditional tires. I've personally compared them and couldn't agree more - no question the new stuff is far superior.

This is where the multicell compound tires excel - millions of microscopic pores pull the water off the ice like a sponge. They are amazing, but once you get a bit of depth the lug spacing on an MT can outperform in a big way.

This thread doesn't really work, because "ice" can mean so many things. Romer, as you know in Colorado, our champagne powder quickly becomes hardpacked and "icy". TRXUS MT's are simply amazing in my experience - they are as good here as the Nokkians I have run. Great lateral traction, no surprises in braking. I've run my inlaws to DIA from Monument Hill in varying winter conditions (dry to wet to slush to hardpack/icy) at 55-65 mph and all they commented on was how comfortable the 80 was.

On black ice, however, they would sled. But we don't get black ice. If you do, then studs/chains or an ice tire.

Having said this, I've run BFG MT's and they are brick sleds...just amazingly bad. BFG AT's are quite poor as well. Siping on an MT makes a huge difference. A siped MT that has a good snow tread like trxus is, IME, a far better overall winter tire than an AT because it can handle both hardpack/icy conditions and the deeper stuff that tends to pack AT's and make them unpredictable.

That is why I put up with trxus and their balancing requirements. I have simply never had better snow performance with any tire for on/offroad use in the Rockies. They just get better the worse conditions get around here (and it is snowing as I look out the window right now :beer: )

Compound is also tremendously important - if you live where it gets very cold you need a compound that doesn't freeze up like a cheap set of all seasons. That's why the high performance AWD market loves the silica compounds that can run very high speeds (130+ mph) in very cold temps...but you lose the microcell compound for that black ice.

Nay
 
My rig had Kelly Safari MSR's on it when I purchased it. It was winter in Jackson, WY. I asked to have them replaced, as I was not happy with their performance on packed snow, especially when trying to stop. The dealer told me they are designed for this weather and to try them a little longer. Meanwhile, the dealer installed 6 new Kelly Safari MSR on his dually, after all the raving he heard about them when he was looking into my inquiry. Drove his truck to Montana for the weekend, came back and pulled every tire off his truck and gave me $600.00 to replace my Kelly Safari MSR too.
Those tires scared the hell out of him!
I got some Mastercraft studded tires from Big-O and never had another problem!
 
I was concerned about mud tires being bad on ice when I bought my BFG MT KM's so I had them siped. They worked quite well on ice for the first couple of seasons. Then last year (at about 30k on the tires and 50% wear) I noticed a marked decrease in ice traction. I actually went into a 4 wheel drift on the highway going about 45 mph. This had NEVER happened before. I got to looking at my tires afterward and noticed that I had worn them beyond much of the siping, so I will have to get them re-siped this season.

Bottom line: never any trouble with siped BFG MT's, however they can be scary on ice without the siping.

Dan
 
I agree with Nay on the truxus performing very well in snow, slush, hard pack. Ice (black ice) is a different story.
 
My rig had Kelly Safari MSR's on it when I purchased it. It was winter in Jackson, WY. I asked to have them replaced, as I was not happy with their performance on packed snow, especially when trying to stop. The dealer told me they are designed for this weather and to try them a little longer. Meanwhile, the dealer installed 6 new Kelly Safari MSR on his dually, after all the raving he heard about them when he was looking into my inquiry. Drove his truck to Montana for the weekend, came back and pulled every tire off his truck and gave me $600.00 to replace my Kelly Safari MSR too.
Those tires scared the hell out of him!
I got some Mastercraft studded tires from Big-O and never had another problem!


This brings up a very important issue. Most people have very little baseline to comment on how well different tires work. Most of the time when people compare tire X to tire Y it is when they have replaced an old set. The new set of tires will almost always feel better, even if they aren't as good, because a new decent tire will almost always outperform a old great tire, simply because as a tire wears and gets old its compounding changes, it wears unevenly, and it looses its ability to channel water and give traction as its edges round off.

To make it even worse, it is next to impossible to compare tires from one vehicle to another, as the vehicle dynamics are so different. That tire that feels great on a 4000 pound 4 runner may feel like garbage on a 5500 pound 80 or 100.

Then there is the last factor, driver perception. Most drivers are less than perceptive as to what a particular tire may be doing. As you get into guys that race or run a lot of track time, you see a lot more description of how a tire feels, i.e., it has good initial turn in, it is progressive, good feeback, goes away when it gets hot, won't come back after they let go. Most less experienced drivers lack the reference to articulate the differences. A tire that has high traction and lets go suddenly may be described as a driver that has never exceeded the traction limits of the tire as "having incredible traction" while an experienced track driver would say "lots of traction but scary at the limit and once it lets go, you can't pick it back up."

The only true way to get an accurate comparison of tires is when Tire Rack or Consumers reports does a comparision test. The Tire Rack tests are especially good as they perform a blind test with identical vehicles and the drivers not knowing what tires they are on. The problem is they don't perform these tests on A/T tires.

I am going to add one additional issue with tires and that concerns foul weather performance. Rain traction is vastly affected by pavement type. Here in CA we have about 50 different pavement combos, which vary highly in their wet coefficient of friction. Compare that to Oregon which has very consistant pavement. For snow and ice performace, traction will vary wildlely as temperature changes. Ice is the slickest right at freezing temps, getting stickier as the temperature goes down (this is because at freezing there is still a very thin layer of water that forms when the tire drives over which creates a nice lubercated surface). Snow traction also varies depending on if it is fresh, packed, and what lays under it.

The bottom line, individual reviews vary greatly in how accurate they may be. If many reviews indicate the same problem with a tire, they are probably correct, but don't overweigh any individual review and consider it's source.
 
Agree with Cary emphatically on this. Tire reviews by individuals are often biased and ill-informed and should be taken with a grain of salt. Far better to find a source where comparisons have been done on a controlled basis and look at what they have to say. I've done tire and system testing on artificial ice, and even among trained testers there's only loose consensus versus when we used instruments to make the conclusions.

I think I say this every fall when this topic comes up: Those who feel a siped M/T or A/T is as good or better than a dedicated winter tire for winter road use simply have not experienced a dedicated winter tire. There is absolutely NO comparison. Sure, you once got Uncle Joe up to his hunting cabin on siped Terra Rippers in 40 feet of snow without spinning a tire, and in your thinking that makes them the best winter road tire ever - period, end of story. But that's just not realistic as a decision point.

If you want serious winter capability, get a set of new generation winter snow tires. They're amazing on ice and snow and will protect you and your family in all conditions. If you HAVE to have a trail capable tire year round, then you're stuck with that compromise solution. Find one that tests well on ice/snow in an actual test and have it siped and carry chains if you travel in the mountains in winter.

FWIW, I've tried siped and studded M/Ts (1 set), siped and studded A/Ts (2 sets), and Michelin Arctic Alpins (2 sets) plus my brother in law put the newest Michelin winter tires on his 80 last winter at my urging. He's a former Toyota Product Planner and my neighbor and his experience mirrors mine.

DougM
 
I researched M/Ts heavily before I bought about 4 years ago. I was prepared to go with A/Ts but I was pleasantly surprised when learning of recent advances in the technology now used in some M/Ts.

I chose the Dueler M/Ts because they were constructed like a performance radial. They were segmented mold versus clamshell, they had widely varied lug sizing to avoid noise (I found them to be almost as quiet as A/Ts and were rated nearly as good in handling), they had a very good tow rating, and they were rated by users to be above average in rain and ice.

Well, I've been on them now for 4 years in all conditions and they have been great ( I should confess to being an aggressive driver who likes to drive at the edge of capabilities-I also know when to back off-ice or packed snow is a hazard regardless of the tires you're on). I would consider buying them again except for the fact that I am lifted now, anxiously awaiting for them to wear out (they seem to last forever) so I can go with 35s. Duelers don't go that big so I have scoped out the Toyos which seem to have similar characteristics, and user ratings, only bigger.
 
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If you want serious winter capability, get a set of new generation winter snow tires. They're amazing on ice and snow and will protect you and your family in all conditions. If you HAVE to have a trail capable tire year round, then you're stuck with that compromise solution. Find one that tests well on ice/snow in an actual test and have it siped and carry chains if you travel in the mountains in winter.

FWIW, I've tried siped and studded M/Ts (1 set), siped and studded A/Ts (2 sets), and Michelin Arctic Alpins (2 sets) plus my brother in law put the newest Michelin winter tires on his 80 last winter at my urging. He's a former Toyota Product Planner and my neighbor and his experience mirrors mine.

DougM

I have run the new generation of winter tires both in high performance version (Silica compound) and studless multicell compound. Both were Nokkians, WR and Hakka Q, respectively, which are just great tires IME (and have a rabid following), although neither were on a 4x4.

I can't agree enough that these new breed of tires are a great advance compared to the older breed of snow tires, but it is the "actual testing" that bothers me in conjunction with my own experience (you aren't going to "get through anything" with a set of studless winter tires due to lack of lug spacing). Having said that, I love the Nokkians because of what Cary was talking about...the WR's on a AWD Sube wagon made that car a rocket when it snowed...just eased out predictably toward any lateral traction limit I would have considered remotely sane and came right back in control if they slipped. Too much fun, really. You shouldn't drive like that on the road.

While I like Tire Rack, I have always been extremely disappointed by their winter tire testing on sedans in an ice rink. This is as far from the reality of snow driving (both sedan and smooth surface black ice) as I think the average snowy climate driver will encounter. I think this kind of testing is a reflection of how advanced the microcell compound is, but not all that much else. For example, how does this test judge performance in 8 inches of snow when lug spacing is increasingly important? How does it account for a Blizzak that has microcell compound for only half the tread depth and then turns into an all season halfway through their second winter of use?

If we took this thread at face value, you'd have to say that my 4,400 lb fwd '04 Quest minivan with Nokkian Hakka Q's would be a far better snow performer than my 80, AWD notwithstanding, on 35" trxus MT's, and they are nowhere near the same class of performance, across the board, in several years of winter driving. You get a steep hill and some snow depth with a bit of hardpack underneath and those winter tires are working big time with traction control going nuts because the siping packs and then has to try to grip on a more slippery surface underneath. I just walk that stuff in the 80, to the point of always looking for the deeper sections to play in. AWD matters for sure, but it is more than that because I had the same experiences in the Sube. Forward traction simply was not unstoppable.

I'd love to see a real comparison, because this is my #1 consideration for any tire purchase, and I've done "real tests" by driving these things in all conditions for the last four years and deliberately testing lateral traction limits and behavior (predictability) in safe conditions over and over and over - much more relevant than BMW's in ice rinks to me. How about we see how many 80's with LT winter tires, AT's, and MT's we can get to someplace like Steamboat Springs to do some testing and winter wheeling?

Now that would be fun :beer:

Nay
 
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I'd love to see a real comparison, because this is my #1 consideration for any tire purchase, and I've done "real tests" by driving these things in all conditions for the last four years and deliberately testing lateral traction limits and behavior (predictability) in safe conditions over and over and over - much more relevant than BMW's in ice rinks to me. How about we see how many 80's with LT winter tires, AT's, and MT's we can get to someplace like Steamboat Springs to do some testing and winter wheeling?

Now that would be fun :beer:

Nay

Ask and you shall receive (not the best, but better than nothing)

http://www.snowtire.info/


Concerning the tire rack test, they are not the best, but they are at least controlled and repeatable. As you know, it is hard to do controlled tests because the conditions change rapidly. Also, the tire rack tests are good for high performance tires in dry an wet conditions. Apparently there is a test peformed by a Swedish magazine every year of winter tires, and this is the defacto comparision.
 
I haven't tried the green diamonds, but I do have some 285 high-tec retreads that I hand-siped with a box cutter.

They are GREAT tires for the money. I got my 285s MTs shipped for $95 each. Mine are BFGoodrich AT KO carcasses. I was thinking about trying the green diamonds, but at the time was living in Alabama so I didn't really think it worth while. Apparently Kentucky gets snow now and then, so we'll see.

I have some 31" high-tecs on my gen II 4runner in high school and those were pretty bad in the snow (packed stuff that is, they were pretty good on roads with 6" unplowed). Not so bad that I ever ran off the road, just bad enough to keep things interesting.

Based on how my siped 285s compare to those unsiped 31s in rain, I'd say siping is a pretty good idea. I could get the 4runner to slide in turns in the rain without too much effort, whereas these siped 285s seem to stay stuck to the road despite my best efforts to get them to slide.

I don't know what places sipe them though. I asked a couple tire shops in southern Alabama and they had never heard of it, but then again, these tire shops seemed to get most of their business either from guys with miss-matched, bald white walls on pick ups, or people with 22" rims or larger.

For what it's worth though, siping by hand isn't that bad. I took me 2hrs or so. I just cut 2 sipes across the two center lugs.
 
This is a rare issue for socal but I asked about it in another thread as I was thinking of hitting some snow this winter (thanks for starting this topic, Romer- good one) and I always thought MTR/MT type tires would not be good on ice/snow roads.

This is kind of important as the road up to Big Bear could be deadly with slipping on ice... my snow driving is SO infrequent that a 2nd set of tires is totally a waste. Maybe invest in some chains... anyway,

Bajataco (I think Norcal Doug too?) siped the center lugs only on the MTR's to prevent chunking off the the side lugs. Maybe that is an option for compromise...? I'm thinking of doing this before I hit the snow.

Factory siped MT tires (like the Toyo or Cooper) is so minimal, better than nothing but would it really help in ice?



Minimal yes but so is a 1/2" more of lift and we all know that just a 1/2" more can mean instead of hitting the rock you now slide over the rock. I think it can only help.

:beer:
 
I think like many other things what work for some may not be the best for someone else. I ran BFG Ats for years and I liked them a lot because I got great traction on and off-road, they were very tuff and I was getting over about 60,000 miles on them. We stopped running them because we live at about 3,000 ft in the Sierra Nevada Foothills and we get very wet snow, we call Sierra Cement. Now we can get 5’ of snow but most of the time when and if we do it is only a couple of inches of slush. We always had problems sliding in the slush because the tires wore not clearing out. If it was a just black ice or a colder deep snow a foot or more then it was great but for water or slush not good at all. So I started running sipped mudders this was better but still not as good as I would like and the tire just don’t last as long.

Now since we have owned the Cruiser we have run two sets of mud type tire on sipped and the newer Toyo Mts the Toyo were bought with new rims so that we could have a winter and summer (AT) set. But I have come the conclusion that the mudders done do very well with hydroplaning either or as good as some other Ats do. So I as looking to by some Ats but instead of using them as a summer tire I want them as a daily driver tire one that is very good for hydroplaning and ice and it must be capable enough for light wheeling too.
 
I think like many other things what work for some may not be the best for someone else. I ran BFG Ats for years and I liked them a lot because I got great traction on and off-road, they were very tuff and I was getting over about 60,000 miles on them. We stopped running them because we live at about 3,000 ft in the Sierra Nevada Foothills and we get very wet snow, we call Sierra Cement. Now we can get 5’ of snow but most of the time when and if we do it is only a couple of inches of slush. We always had problems sliding in the slush because the tires wore not clearing out. If it was a just black ice or a colder deep snow a foot or more then it was great but for water or slush not good at all. So I started running sipped mudders this was better but still not as good as I would like and the tire just don’t last as long.

Now since we have owned the Cruiser we have run two sets of mud type tire on sipped and the newer Toyo Mts the Toyo were bought with new rims so that we could have a winter and summer (AT) set. But I have come the conclusion that the mudders done do very well with hydroplaning either or as good as some other Ats do. So I as looking to by some Ats but instead of using them as a summer tire I want them as a daily driver tire one that is very good for hydroplaning and ice and it must be capable enough for light wheeling too.


Just out of curiosity, were your running the older BFG A/T or the newer KO version? Also were they a D or E rated tire?
 
I'd love to see a real comparison, because this is my #1 consideration for any tire purchase, and I've done "real tests" by driving these things in all conditions for the last four years and deliberately testing lateral traction limits and behavior (predictability) in safe conditions over and over and over - much more relevant than BMW's in ice rinks to me. How about we see how many 80's with LT winter tires, AT's, and MT's we can get to someplace like Steamboat Springs to do some testing and winter wheeling?

Now that would be fun :beer:

Nay

It is. And I have already signed the track contract for this coming February. All 80's welcome to dance with the quattros, I highly suggest Blizzacks, but any type of dedicated winter tire will suffice. This is strictly ice, as in 8inches of frozen water beneath your tires for a solid mile of road course multi-plane track. My 80 will be there, as it was last year. Some pics and videos of my Jolly Green Giant this past year are linked on the site.

Scott Justusson
Eventmaster
Gruppe-q Steamboat Winter Driving Event 2007
www.gruppe-q.com

I will say the thread was regarding MT on ice. Bottom Line: They suck compared to a dedicated Snow/Ice tire. Comparo: Blizzack. Doesn't matter if you sipe, lock, drift or pray.

SJ

http://www.gruppe-q.com
 
It is. And I have already signed the track contract for this coming February. All 80's welcome to dance with the quattros, I highly suggest Blizzacks, but any type of dedicated winter tire will suffice. This is strictly ice, as in 8inches of frozen water beneath your tires for a solid mile of road course multi-plane track. My 80 will be there, as it was last year. Some pics and videos of my Jolly Green Giant this past year are linked on the site.

Scott Justusson
Eventmaster
Gruppe-q Steamboat Winter Driving Event 2007
www.gruppe-q.com

I will say the thread was regarding MT on ice. Bottom Line: They suck compared to a dedicated Snow/Ice tire. Comparo: Blizzack. Doesn't matter if you sipe, lock, drift or pray.

SJ

http://www.gruppe-q.com


Oh, that would be fun. Of course, between registration and having to buy a set of studless snows I could probably afford a trip to the Caribbean. Or maybe it will just go to diapers :eek:

Note to self: don't drive on frozen lakes that have been zamboni'd without Blizzaks :flipoff2:
 

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