Mud Tires poor on Ice??

[Romer]

In researching and putting together the new Tire FAQ https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=114057

I found several mentions that Mud terrains were poor and some where even dangerous in icy conditions.

Can those who have them help me expand this to clarify if it is all MT's or certain ones.

Thanks

 

[MoJ]

Many mud tires lack any siping (thin grooves cut in the tread blocks/lugs) and consist of large flat surfaces, ie the ends of the tread lugs. Large flat surface on ice equals no traction and greatly lessens control as well. Some mud tires however are siped in an effort to improve their performance on ice. Siping was a deciding factor in choosing the last set of mud tires I bought.

For example, notice differences is siping between these two tread patterns

VS

 

[Romer]

Thanks Jason, I will add that to the FAQ. Just what I was looking for.

 

[MoJ]

Also should probably be mentioned that siping can be done for you at a few tire shops even though the tires weren't siped from the factory.

 

[KliersLC]

Swampers, even with siping, are terrible on ice.......

 

[Jetboy]

I'd just like to note, as was said earlier that siping can be done in a tire shop that is much much better than any factory sipe short of the dedicated snow tires. Not only does it increase traction, but increases tire life because of heat dissipation, and rides smoother. It usually costs $10/tire and every tire shop in areas with snow has or should have a siping machine. The real key is hard rubber, or poor quality rubber which gets hard in cold weather. Also unsipped mud tires have very few biting edges/area, but sipped mud tires usually aren't that bad. Michelin has some of the best tread compound for keeping pliable in cold temps.

The real problem is that lower ground pressure usually leads to worse traction on ice, however in deep snow the low ground pressure is critical to floatation.

 

[Gumby]

My MTRs were great on ice with dealer installed siping. As the years went by it got worse. I should have them re-siped. It worked really well.

 

[cary]

The general rule is the more biting edges a tire has the better it will be in snow and ice. Also, a good snow tire actually packs snow in the tread compared to a mud tire that wants to throw it free. Take a look a these snow tire picts as an idea of what you want in snow tires.

 

[-XXX-]

I recommend siping for your trail rigs, I have some Krawlers and some Goodyear MTRs and the goodyears are siped and it is an AWSOME improvement in traction on rocks and almost all other surfaces.

FWIW here is a sight that explains the siping history


http://www.4x4review.com/tech/siping.asp

(he actually worked at a Slaughter house if I am correct, and the floors were slippery from the meat and fat and he was busting his ass )


Here is another site that provides siping service,

http://www.sipers.com/sipers/history.asp



Very good idea for a thread Romer, I would really recommend a tid bit or 2 about Siping it is a old timers trick for traction and you will feel an improvement.

Even in that Missouri crap you were in last week!!

 

[IdahoDoug]

On hard packed snow on typical traveled plowed roads, it's all about siping - the biting edges as mentioned. Also as mentioned, moderen snow tires keep snow in them because snow sticks better to snow. MT tires throw it.

On ice, however, it's a different matter. This info comes to me from a former track trainer at the Steamboat Winter Driving School:

When you drive on ice in normal temps, the pressure of the tread blocks creates heat and a thin layer of water under the contact patch. At warmer temps it is worsened. Modern ice/snow tires use greater surface areas to reduce the pressure per square inch. Seems counterintuitive, eh? Anyhow, the larger surface area in contact with the ice, plus the rubber compounds that remain soft at low temps provide the superior traction of winter-specific tires. Even better than studded and siped traditional tires. I've personally compared them and couldn't agree more - no question the new stuff is far superior.

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

Every snow and almost even more all terrains with any size "lugs" to them have been absolutely awful in any kind of ice or slick snow surface, basically just the nature of the beast of that sort of tire type. this includes MTRs, GY A/Ts, Swampers, and a slew of others. The best snow tires in the world are those with small flexible lugs. the pic shown above of the Hakkapelitas shows exactly this. hope it helps. I am curious about the results of siping on a big mud terrain tire, I could see it helping but still being medeocre, versus, say a BFG AT..

 

[Mark W]

I've driven the latest studless snow/ice tires and I've driven studded MTs and Swampers.

Studs still win.


Mark...

 

[Driley]

Nokian tires

I have been running Nokian Vatiivas on my 1994 LC and they have great snow and ice traction and are pretty good on dry. 265/75 16 was the only size they had in stock, but fit the factory height nicely.

 

[hadji_85]

Studs on Tires

How about putting studs on the tires to increase the ice traction?

 

[Romer]

I have been running Nokian Vatiivas on my 1994 LC and they have great snow and ice traction and are pretty good on dry. 265/75 16 was the only size they had in stock, but fit the factory height nicely.

I don't believe these are Mud Terrains based on the tread pattern and what I found in a 5 minute google of these tires

 

[Jule]

Has anyone tried Green Diamond Tires or Retreads

Has anyone tried these? I have wanted to try a green diamond mud tire. Get the mud tire for deep snow, slush, mud that an AT will choke on and still have good ice traction.

Green Diamond is a technology developed in Iceland:

"Green Diamond Tires. These tires are specifically intended for winter driving, but are also meant for year-round use. The Green Diamond granules (1 mm), which are comparable in strength to diamonds, are evenly embedded in the tire tread during manufacture. As the tire tread gradually wears, new Green Diamonds continually “appear” on the surface. In addition to being safe, these tires are very environmentally friendly: noise- and air-pollution levels are no greater than from regular, unstudded tires. And Green Diamond tires are particularly well suited for use with ABS break systems."

"Green Diamond tires provide similar traction on ice as studded tires, according to tests conducted by VTI (Swedish Public Roads Administration). And, Green Diamond tires cause 93% less road- wear than studded tires, according to BAST (German Public Roads Administration)."

The following U.S. vendors sell mud tires with Green Diamond as retreads.


http://greendiamondtire.com/ (Sizes up to 31")



http://www.high-tec-retreading.com/diamond.html (Sizes up to 37", image below)

 

[Driley]

Sorry, for the off topic post. I just mentioned them because they have been great all year street tires that perform well on ice. Definitely not for the mud.

 

[SUMOTOY]

In researching and putting together the new Tire FAQ https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=114057

I found several mentions that Mud terrains were poor and some where even dangerous in icy conditions.

Can those who have them help me expand this to clarify if it is all MT's or certain ones.

Thanks

Thinking studless here... IME, BFG MTR's are dangerous in icy conditions, btdt. MTR with siping are less dangerous in icy conditions, but their hard compound isn't really conducive to ice, btdt2. As Eventmaster of Gruppe-q Winter Driving Event at Steamboat for 4 years, and Steamboat attendee for 14years, very few non ice tires will compete with an ice tire.

You can get close, Hakka makes some good winter tires in the non ice category that compete well, as does michelin. The key as mentioned is the compound of the tire rubber, regardless of siping.

I run Blizzacks Ice tires on my 80, and did at Steamboat this past year. There is absolutely no comparo that a dedicated Ice tire will outperform any snow, and any MTR/AT tire. There can be some situations where an ice tires will be bested by a dedicated snow in snow, but not often.

Prior to getting Blizzacks, I ran a variety of snow tires on my quattros to see how close a snow could get to the Blizzacks. I have several years of tire comparos, based on a lot of testing. Mostly automotive, not truck, but my experience is the same at Steamboat with my 80 this past year.

The reason I avoided Blizzacks was that I really have a problem with the sidewall flex in them. That is part of what makes the tread stay on the ground, so you learn to live with the decreased steering response. That said, I like the 80 Blizzack application better than the car apps, since they have appear stiffer sidewall to handle the weight. With my quattros, I so dislike tarmac behavior, I have a set of Blizzacks that I haul to Steamboat, run the week, and they go into storage for another year. I've run 9 months with the Blizzacks on my 80, and really enjoy them as an allaround tire. Quiet, Great in the wet, decent offroad (light duty), and phenom on ice.

There is no question in my mind that MTR's wouldn't make it around an ice track without a lot of snow attached. I had several incidents in my 4R with MTR's, where on ice you realized you were just along for the ride, siped or no, latest tread design included. With the 80, I was amazed how much of the supercharger was required, just to bust the Blizzacks loose.

HTH and my .02

ST

 

[firetruck41]

Though I'm sure the results are similar, did you have BFG MTs or Goodyear MTRs?

 

[thorvald]

I don't have any experience with other mt's, just the truxxus mt's and in pure ice, going over 35mph the landcruiser started sliding slightly side to side. Other cars were passing us and we turned around (didn't need to go where we were going that bad). At 35 and under they seemed fine.

I think the AT that was on before was probably better on ice. but that's all it was better in. In pure ice, should probably have chains on anyways, and then your still going under 35