Tapage
Club 4X4 Panamá
too rich at open loop .. --> more boost make it lean ! 
( just kidding, sorry couldn't resist )
( just kidding, sorry couldn't resist )
Builds LX450 where to start! (3 Viewers)
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- Thread starter
- #622
Haha that was my first suggestion!!! But I would need a lot of boost to lean it out and I would be worried about the head bolts. I would need like 20+psi just to get it back to OEM open loop levels which would be like 10:1
Overland Tailor
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Ryan,
Are you going to have to go to some type of fuel controller or will this build require an aftermarket ECU setup?
Will you have the ability to tune this truck or will it need to always be tweaked at EMS?
I did a 6.2L LS In a 2011 JK and had to utilize both the Chevrolet and Chrysler PCM's and it took some work to get it sorted... but its fantastic now.
I'd love to see something like this retain some element of factory control as I feel I lost some reliability early with the multiple ECU setup and interface. Keeping the LC's reliability is important, but at some junction we reach the tipping point on aftermarket power vs. reliability.
Best of luck getting the final details sorted...
John
Are you going to have to go to some type of fuel controller or will this build require an aftermarket ECU setup?
Will you have the ability to tune this truck or will it need to always be tweaked at EMS?
I did a 6.2L LS In a 2011 JK and had to utilize both the Chevrolet and Chrysler PCM's and it took some work to get it sorted... but its fantastic now.
I'd love to see something like this retain some element of factory control as I feel I lost some reliability early with the multiple ECU setup and interface. Keeping the LC's reliability is important, but at some junction we reach the tipping point on aftermarket power vs. reliability.
Best of luck getting the final details sorted...
John
- Thread starter
- #624
John,
We are using a fuel controller, we are using the AEM FI/C 8, which allows you to control; MAF, Fuel, O2, Ignition, boost, etc.
The tuning is done through a laptop and the AEM software so anyone can tune it, but I have left it up to EMS/JMS to get the base tune done. The FI/C 8 has the ability to run 2 maps so one will be a higher boost 93 octane pump map and the other will be a low boost low octane map so I can use poor gas if it is the only option.
Anything below boost should retain some elements of factory control, it is still factory closed loop, but everything above 14.7psia of manifold pressure or when you are in boost is handled by the piggyback. At least that is the idea.
We are using a fuel controller, we are using the AEM FI/C 8, which allows you to control; MAF, Fuel, O2, Ignition, boost, etc.
The tuning is done through a laptop and the AEM software so anyone can tune it, but I have left it up to EMS/JMS to get the base tune done. The FI/C 8 has the ability to run 2 maps so one will be a higher boost 93 octane pump map and the other will be a low boost low octane map so I can use poor gas if it is the only option.
Anything below boost should retain some elements of factory control, it is still factory closed loop, but everything above 14.7psia of manifold pressure or when you are in boost is handled by the piggyback. At least that is the idea.
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Overland Tailor
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That's a very stout setup and once dialed in should take good care of you.
I promised myself after getting the LS JK perfect I'd leave the LC power plant stock. You've now erased that idea!!!
Good luck and ill be following..
J
I promised myself after getting the LS JK perfect I'd leave the LC power plant stock. You've now erased that idea!!!
Good luck and ill be following..
J
My god, this is a sick build...
Tapage
Club 4X4 Panamá
that rich ..? and your plugs were surviving that much fuel .?
Would be interesting see what you get in terms of AFR in other " stock " 1FZ-FE .. I believe you change injectors .. maybe you went too big .?
20psi sounds good to me
I worked with the AEM FI/C in the past, I'm interested to see how they make out with it.
I worked with the AEM FI/C in the past, I'm interested to see how they make out with it.
- Thread starter
- #629
Tappage,
I think if I am understanding your question correctly. When my truck was OEM on stock injectors I would see richer than 10:1 when in open loop. Now that I have increased injector size almost 180% and added a little more air it is even richer still. I used 540cc injectors based on my hp goals, I don't feel like they are too big, the idle is good, we just need to figure out a way to lean out open loop.
Haha 20psi does sound good but if it is making around 570ft/lbs at 12psi, I am a little affraid of pushing it at 20psi.
I think if I am understanding your question correctly. When my truck was OEM on stock injectors I would see richer than 10:1 when in open loop. Now that I have increased injector size almost 180% and added a little more air it is even richer still. I used 540cc injectors based on my hp goals, I don't feel like they are too big, the idle is good, we just need to figure out a way to lean out open loop.
Haha 20psi does sound good but if it is making around 570ft/lbs at 12psi, I am a little affraid of pushing it at 20psi.
Overland Tailor
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I believe Ryan went with ID or Injector Dynamics. Paul Yaw is absolutely amazing when it comes to providing injectors that flow what they say they flow. I've seen no other in the industry that does the research and testing he has done.
Too big is somewhat relative and its more in controlling the pulse width modulation of the injectors. The electronics have to be behind it as well as the ability to manipulate the "Tune" on the fueling to get it running where it needs to be for acceptable AFR's
Paul and Howard Tanner who runs Redline Motorsports in FL have put huge ID injectors in turbo applications and the vehicles have idled smooth as factory and run great AFR's under both cruise and boost.... Granted this has been GM EFI applications~
Much of this has to do with the tuning behind the application. Not enough can be said about this!!
2 things kill motors - High RPM'S and Knock.... Better to be on the fat side during these early stages.
Just inspiring seeing this come together...
Best regards,
John -
Too big is somewhat relative and its more in controlling the pulse width modulation of the injectors. The electronics have to be behind it as well as the ability to manipulate the "Tune" on the fueling to get it running where it needs to be for acceptable AFR's
Paul and Howard Tanner who runs Redline Motorsports in FL have put huge ID injectors in turbo applications and the vehicles have idled smooth as factory and run great AFR's under both cruise and boost.... Granted this has been GM EFI applications~
Much of this has to do with the tuning behind the application. Not enough can be said about this!!
2 things kill motors - High RPM'S and Knock.... Better to be on the fat side during these early stages.
Just inspiring seeing this come together...
Best regards,
John -
- Thread starter
- #631
Actually I looked at ID injectors but I actually don't like them as much as I like a multi-hole injector. I recently pulled the ID1000's out of my car to replace them with a multi-hole injector for better atomization and was going to use them but decided to just sell them and use a 540cc OEM Toyota injector out of a 4th gen 3S-GTE.
Overland Tailor
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Agree the ID1000 would have been too much...
Does the AEM have the ability to control open loop in non-boost applications?
I've also seen many a bosch or other aftermarket injector with false published numbers after they were verified on a flow bench... What's your feeling on the OEM ones?
J~
Does the AEM have the ability to control open loop in non-boost applications?
I've also seen many a bosch or other aftermarket injector with false published numbers after they were verified on a flow bench... What's your feeling on the OEM ones?
J~
- Thread starter
- #633
The OEM injectors are right around 305cc, the OEM I used are 540cc and we flow matched 80 of them and picked the closest 6.
I think the OEM injectors are going to be fine to 300hp at the motor.
I can't answer the ability to control the injectors in open loop without boost, anything without boost was being handled by the stock computer, but I am pretty sure you could. I just don't have the time with it to give you a definitive answer.
I think the OEM injectors are going to be fine to 300hp at the motor.
I can't answer the ability to control the injectors in open loop without boost, anything without boost was being handled by the stock computer, but I am pretty sure you could. I just don't have the time with it to give you a definitive answer.
Overland Tailor
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Ryan,
Agree on your injector sizing for the application and give you kudos for flow testing all those!!!
Just wondering how accurate the flow data is from Toyota on those injectors as I don't have any experience with them.
If the Toyota ECM is utilized for open loop fueling in your application then the new injector data for the larger injectors would need placed in the stock ECU tune for proper pwm/fueling...
Again, I'm not sure if your tuner has the ability to change data in the stock ECU, but if they can't that would certainly account for your open loop problems as the ECU doesn't know that there are now 540cc injectors in there.
Thanks for helping me understand your setup...
John-
Agree on your injector sizing for the application and give you kudos for flow testing all those!!!
Just wondering how accurate the flow data is from Toyota on those injectors as I don't have any experience with them.
If the Toyota ECM is utilized for open loop fueling in your application then the new injector data for the larger injectors would need placed in the stock ECU tune for proper pwm/fueling...
Again, I'm not sure if your tuner has the ability to change data in the stock ECU, but if they can't that would certainly account for your open loop problems as the ECU doesn't know that there are now 540cc injectors in there.
Thanks for helping me understand your setup...
John-
- Thread starter
- #635
All good questions and here are the answers as I see them now without having more tuning time:
Yes you can adjust for injector size.
- the FI/C 8 does all of the injector driving by interupting the signal and modifying it. So when you make a percentage reduction it is across the map. i.e. you go from 305cc injectors to 540cc injectors you make a fueling reduction of ~45% and you would be back at stock. So you are not flashing the OEM computer but are piggybacking the signal and adjusting it to fit your needs.
As for open loop this is where it gets sticky because "as far as I can tell" when the truck goes open loop it basically opens the injectors wide open, and the injector size modification is not being used. So you have larger injectors flowing considerably more, and since it is open loop there is no feedback loop so the computer doesn't care how big your injectors are.
So you can see the open loop portion will need to be tuned/fooled so that it doesn't trigger this wide open injector condition or we need to add more air so that it leans it out enough it isn't an issue. I honestly don't think we can lean it out enough with boost. My motor is on stock head bolts, if it wasn't I would just tell the tunner to jump it up to 25psi which is where the turbo wants to live anyways.
EMS and JMS both have some ideas on what needs to happen so I will sit back and let them work their magic.
Yes you can adjust for injector size.
- the FI/C 8 does all of the injector driving by interupting the signal and modifying it. So when you make a percentage reduction it is across the map. i.e. you go from 305cc injectors to 540cc injectors you make a fueling reduction of ~45% and you would be back at stock. So you are not flashing the OEM computer but are piggybacking the signal and adjusting it to fit your needs.
As for open loop this is where it gets sticky because "as far as I can tell" when the truck goes open loop it basically opens the injectors wide open, and the injector size modification is not being used. So you have larger injectors flowing considerably more, and since it is open loop there is no feedback loop so the computer doesn't care how big your injectors are.
So you can see the open loop portion will need to be tuned/fooled so that it doesn't trigger this wide open injector condition or we need to add more air so that it leans it out enough it isn't an issue. I honestly don't think we can lean it out enough with boost. My motor is on stock head bolts, if it wasn't I would just tell the tunner to jump it up to 25psi which is where the turbo wants to live anyways.
EMS and JMS both have some ideas on what needs to happen so I will sit back and let them work their magic.
Yea, intercooler for sure. But i was talking about the injectors and MAF housing thin;king that would be the easiest way to control fueling... sorry to take from your thread. Maybe we can start another thread on tuning up the blowers...
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- #637
Lol, no need to be sorry hijack away
I am not sure that MAF and injectors are the easiest way to control fueling. I would think that keeping the stock injectors, and using an FI/C 8 to change the AFR at low RPMS would be the easiest way. Going to a bigger injector you're going to run into the same problem that I am seeing in open loop but with even less air. I know lilevo is running 440cc injectors at ~410hp and he is still rich in open loop. With the Supercharger I don't think you will be anywhere near 400hp, so stock injectors will be fine in open loop and you just need to add more fuel and keep the computer from targeting 14.7AFR's in closed loop.
I am not sure that MAF and injectors are the easiest way to control fueling. I would think that keeping the stock injectors, and using an FI/C 8 to change the AFR at low RPMS would be the easiest way. Going to a bigger injector you're going to run into the same problem that I am seeing in open loop but with even less air. I know lilevo is running 440cc injectors at ~410hp and he is still rich in open loop. With the Supercharger I don't think you will be anywhere near 400hp, so stock injectors will be fine in open loop and you just need to add more fuel and keep the computer from targeting 14.7AFR's in closed loop.
Yea, intercooler for sure. But i was talking about the injectors and MAF housing thin;king that would be the easiest way to control fueling... sorry to take from your thread. Maybe we can start another thread on tuning up the blowers...
Back in the discussion, can you learn us slower people on a few terms? Like,
Open loop: I assume this is when the truck is still metering fuel/air mixtures and adjusting the fuel to match the air intake?
Closed Loop: Computer just goes wide open, full throttle, no metering just dumping as much fuel as possible with as much air as possible coming in?
LTFT: something to do with fuel trim..
Open loop: I assume this is when the truck is still metering fuel/air mixtures and adjusting the fuel to match the air intake?
Closed Loop: Computer just goes wide open, full throttle, no metering just dumping as much fuel as possible with as much air as possible coming in?
LTFT: something to do with fuel trim..
- Thread starter
- #639
Close you are just backwards in your terms. Hopefully I didn't have some typos in my write ups.
Closed loop, there is a feedback loop - the computer is using what it estimates to be the right fueling and then getting the AFR (Air fuel ratio) from the narrowband O2 sensors and using that reading to adjust how much fuel it is actually using.
Open loop is exactly that it is wide open there is no feedback from the O2 sensors the computer is just dumping fuel
STFT - Short term fuel trim - you drive from low to high altitudes and it will be here.
LTFT - Long term fuel trim - You make a change that always requires 10% more fuel it will be here.
Closed loop, there is a feedback loop - the computer is using what it estimates to be the right fueling and then getting the AFR (Air fuel ratio) from the narrowband O2 sensors and using that reading to adjust how much fuel it is actually using.
Open loop is exactly that it is wide open there is no feedback from the O2 sensors the computer is just dumping fuel
STFT - Short term fuel trim - you drive from low to high altitudes and it will be here.
LTFT - Long term fuel trim - You make a change that always requires 10% more fuel it will be here.
OK thanks!
So on STFT and LTFT, are these things that the computer is capable of adjusting, or is this something that you adjust in the fuel map using your new fancy FI/C 8?
So on STFT and LTFT, are these things that the computer is capable of adjusting, or is this something that you adjust in the fuel map using your new fancy FI/C 8?
